Primary School threatens to stop celebrating Christmas/Easter/Patricks Day

Cee-Jay-Cee

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/christmas-celebrations-will-be-scrapped-under-new-ethos-catholic-schools-warn-37974150.html

I think this is a step too far. The school Christmas play, carol singing etc etc is a tradition in Ireland and I think it is grossly unfair that it is now being outlawed so as not to cause offence to those of other non Christian religions. Why should we have to lose our traditions? Those who are offended by it came here in the hope of a better life/work etc so why are we being forced to bow to them and change our ways? Surely their choice to move here, settle and have families here meant that they wanted to embrace our traditions and cultures, yet they complain and expect people to change to suit them?

I know Ireland has become a multi-denominational and cultural country but it is still Ireland and we should not lose traditions and habits just because people who chose to move here don't follow those beliefs/traditions. I know Christmas itself hasn't been outlawed and its just in schools but I see this as a move in the wrong direction and other institutions/areas will follow suit down the line.

IMO Ireland (ie the government and State depts) pander to ever minority and largely ignore the majority. Is the same thing happening in other European countries? I don't think so. Tolerance should work both ways but it doesn't appear to.

super_furry

Scare-mongering nonsense from the Catholic church as they continue to lose their grasp on Irish children.

There's not a single quote from anyone in that story.

zell12

But but multi-ethnic society, open borders, embracing cultures, globalised world, religious freedoms, etc etc

zapitastas

I am sure there are church groups that parents could take their children to in order to organise this stuff. Get up on a Sunday morning and take them

maxsmum

This is idle threats by the Church at possible threat of any control being removed. Christmas and St Patrick's day are not the sole preserve of religion anymore, sorry. Of course the kids are going to celebrate these holidays regardless of a schools ethos. Nonsense. As a parent would spur me on to get the Church firmly out of the school's patronage with such pettiness.

robinph

Little bit early for the "banned Christmas" / "renamed it to Winterval" thread this year aren't we? Haven't even had this years poppy thread yet.

storker

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I think this is a step too far. The school Christmas play, carol singing etc etc is a tradition in Ireland and I think it is grossly unfair that it is now being outlawed

Did you even read the piece, or was getting to the end of the headline too exhausting?

1. First sentence, second paragraph: "eight Catholic primary schools". So, no question of outlawing anything, then.

2. These are claims being made by those who want the schools to stay under church patronage.

I'd save the hand-wringing and henny-penny-channeling until the falling sky has actually been confirmed.

Hurrache

"The catholic church has no place in Irish schools these days, they need to be gotten outta there".

Schools remove Catholic ethos from school, and therefore any Catholic celebration.

"It's a beedlin disgrace Joe, when we said we wanted no church involvement in our schools, we didn't think that would mean they'd take away Christmas from the childers. Did I sey it was a bleedin disgrace Joe?"

Guy:Incognito

One can only hope.

Nothing worse than being forced to go to a crap play to watch my kids stand as background furniture.

salmocab

OP that article and what your talking about aren’t even close to the same thing. Your giving out about something that’s not happening.

lawred2

Our kids go to one of these schools. The teachers and boards of management are going heavy on such threats and the hand wringing from some parents who are never seen inside a church outside of a handful of social occasions is something to behold.

Tis all a bit sectarian really

Muppet Man

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

...Those who are offended by it came here in the hope of a better life/work etc...

No where is that mentioned in the article...

All it says is: "... and provide greater diversity in school choice to reflect societal changes."

A societal change to me means the continued erosion of the Catholic church's influence and a swing towards secularism.

I'm an atheist myself and I happen to like the xmas play, in as much as I like all fairy tale based plays.

Muppet Man

Mrs OBumble

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I think this is a step too far. The school Christmas play, carol singing etc etc is a tradition in Ireland and I think it is grossly unfair that it is now being outlawed so as not to cause offence to those of other non Christian religions. Why should we have to lose our traditions?

Not sure where you got the outlawed bit from.

The proposal in the article is for one of a specific eight schools to move to a patronage which may well choose to celebrate things other than Christmas and St Patrick. Which is fine for parents who want that for their kids.

Parents who want their kids to learn about and celebrate Christian stuff like Christmas and St Patrick and God-be-with-you can choose a school which includes those.

If you listen to many posters here, you'd think that most of the country wants to stop kids learning about religious stuff.

super_furry

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

IMO Ireland (ie the government and State depts) pander to ever minority and largely ignore the majority. Is the same thing happening in other European countries? I don't think so. Tolerance should work both ways but it doesn't appear to.

You didn't read the story at all did you? Just saw the headline and got all excited thinking you could have a whinge about foreigners.

tedpan

Christmas has feck all to do with religion these days, although it's a time of year where families and friends get together. Removing it from schools or from anywhere is a disgrace.

is_that_so

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

One can only hope.

Nothing worse than being forced to go to a crap play to watch my kids stand as background furniture.

You'd still have your kids lined up in some dreamt up vision of entertainment regardless.
On topic, it's kind of hard to avoid Christmas, Paddy's Day and Pancake Tuesday. St Brigid's Day is more Arts & Crafts anyway!

robinph

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you listen to many posters here, you'd think that most of the country wants to stop kids learning about religious stuff.

I doubt anyone is arguing that religion shouldn't be taught about. Just that it should be in a citizenship type lesson where you learn that different people believe in different imaginary friends or the same imaginary friend, just wearing a different colour hat.

The indoctrination of you must believe in being A is for lessons outside of school and in the parents own time.

CrankyHaus

Some of the stuff in that article seems far fetched to the point of being an April Fools article - no saying "Dia Duit" as it references god for example.

Out of interest has any of the stuff mentioned in the article actually come to pass in multi denominational or non denominational schools?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why should we have to lose our traditions?

Has it been confirmed you will lose them? The link sounds more like an opinion being used to scare monger against the goal of changing patronage. Is it confirmed such things will actively be banned completely - or is it just a "warning" of a potential to appeal to parents to oppose change?

I would be against banning a play or the singing of a some simply because it is religious in nature. I would be similarly against compelling them for the same reason too - that kids should be doing it purely because they are religious. Give children lots of plays and songs to work on! Religious and non alike. That "tradition" of having to have a particular kind of play at a particular time of year - who needs that?

Have a range of plays - at a range of times - including religious ones from various traditions. Id love to see my kids in a Christmas play. I would also love to see them in a Muslim one or an Indian one from their colourful and unusual religious traditions! My 5 year old would make a great mohammad. He has the tude for it.

However - who says you do have to lose traditions? Saying X is not the appropriate time and place to do Y is in no way telling you to stop doing X.

It is a common knee-jerk response we get given when we try to take some aspect of religion out of schools or out of the curriculum that we are somehow trying to take peoples religions or traditions from them. We aren't - we are just saying that maybe school is not the place for it.

Sing your carols. Put on your plays. No one is stopping you. You even have an established range of churches and church halls to have them in - so check your privilege too

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Those who are offended by it came here in the hope of a better life/work etc

Is that a safe assumption? Why are you assuming that people who have an issue with it came here from externally? There are people who convert to other religions within a populace. And in many countries atheism is one of the fastest growing minority groups. It is not all about immigrants.

Even if it was though I would still ask "so what?" - if we are moving towards being a more pluralist society we need to respond to that - but still I am not sure the assumption is a safe one to make.

However all of that said -

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

we should not lose traditions and habits

- I am concerned the word "traditions" is over used and not as powerful as some might want it to be. It seems if something is a "tradition" some people think it is automatically a good thing worthy of protection and continuation. But is it? Is there any particular reason that specifically religious traditions should be upheld and continued? Does anyone actually benefit from them?

I would not lament the loss of a tradition merely by virtue of it having been a tradition. I would only lament the loss of a tradition that can be shown to have some merit or worth. Merely virtue signalling our "tolerance" is not really an ideal I would want to aspire to.

Cienciano

Christmas celebrations will be scrapped under new ethos - Catholic schools warn

I highlited the important bit. super_furry got it spot on, catholic church worried about losing it's grip. Having to baptise kids to get them into school is the only reason a large percentage of people consider themselves catholic.

Edgware

robinph wrote: »

Little bit early for the "banned Christmas" / "renamed it to Winterval" thread this year aren't we? Haven't even had this years poppy thread yet.

Or a" Would you wear an Easter Lily" thread.

Cienciano

"It's pc gone mad. I heard they're bringing sharia law into a school in Balbriggan"

Edgware

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Some of the stuff in that article seems far fetched to the point of being an April Fools article - no saying "Dia Duit" as it references god for example.

Out of interest has any of the stuff mentioned in the article actually come to pass in multi denominational or non denominational schools?

Try saying "God bless you" or mentioning Ramadan in the U.S. public school system and see how far you will get.

Happy holidays

SoundsRight

If parents want their children to be educated without faith or morals then just send them to a different school. I don't see why other children should have to be dragged down with them.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod: Thread title changed because fcuk clickbait.

In case anybody is wondering, the old stupidly inaccurate and misleading title was:

Primary Schools to Ban Christmas Celebrations

murpho999

So much wrong with this.

Firstly it’s scare mongering by the schools trying to forecast doom. Nothing is based on fact.

Also, primary schools are not banning Christmas celebrations, it’s the patrons of the catholic schools who do not like the new structure who are claiming this.

Secondly, religion in schools is not “our tradition” nor is it caused by or pandering to foreigners of a different faith as the OP states.

The point is that schools should be about education and preparing children for adult life. Time spent on religious doctrine could be better spent on physical education to help with childhood obesity or topics such as relationships as taught in other countries.

If parents want children to have been brought up with a catholic ethos well then I’m sure that catholic ethos schools will still exist and also they can do so in their private time which is where church indoctrination should take place not in an education environment where children are easily influenced.

Ireland has changed hugely in the last 20 years as shown by recent referendums on abortion and same sex marriage, which went against Catholic ethos, so it’s time for people to accept this and schools and also hospitals need to modernise.

is_that_so

Edgware wrote: »

Try saying "God bless you" or mentioning Ramadan in the U.S. public school system and see how far you will get.

Happy holidays

Hmm, first thing out of your mouth in Irish when you meet someone. So your alternative to Dia Duit would be what?

Tacklebox

robinph wrote: »

I doubt anyone is arguing that religion shouldn't be taught about. Just that it should be in a citizenship type lesson where you learn that different people believe in different imaginary friends or the same imaginary friend, just wearing a different colour hat.

The indoctrination of you must believe in being A is for lessons outside of school and in the parents own time.

Imaginary friends, we all had them.

It's part of growing up, if you get rid of one another pop's up.

Reminiscing on my child hood and being brought up in a Catholic home, my cousin's parents were very religious.
They were petrified of going to hell and having bad thoughts, praying and telling us were mocking god if we don't bless ourselves passing a church, or geneflect before we walk out of mass.

There's serious consequences for kids living in fear, imagine having to gain validation from others and do a ritual every time you pass a statue or holy building.

And your big cousin watching every move when dad drives past the church, awful stuff.

That kind of thing is stifling to one's emotional intelligence and growth.

On the other hand my grandmother was a Pagan, she used to have all these old sayings and had her own thing going on.

She could see through the priest's and their selfish agenda's.

Teaching theology is ok but leave it up to the kids to make their own mind's up.

Edgware

is_that_so wrote: »

Hmm, first thing out of your mouth in Irish when you meet someone. So your alternative to Dia Duit would be what?

Whats the story Bud

is_that_so

Edgware wrote: »

Whats the story Bud

Yeah, much what I expected! :pac:

spockety

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Some of the stuff in that article seems far fetched to the point of being an April Fools article - no saying "Dia Duit" as it references god for example.

Out of interest has any of the stuff mentioned in the article actually come to pass in multi denominational or non denominational schools?

My kids go to a multi-d gaelscoil.

Everyone says "dia dhuit" to each other (for some that's the most Irish they have, and that's grand, nobody cares).

There's a Christmas Fair, with Santa and all, no crucifixes or mangers. There's a Christmas show where the kids sing Daddy Na Nollaig and Jingle Bells and all that.

There's even Halloween done for the pagans.

Religious indoctrination is done outside school hours for anyone that wants it.

The stuff in that article is off the wall hysteria.

lawred2

Cienciano wrote: »

Christmas celebrations will be scrapped under new ethos - Catholic schools warn

I highlited the important bit. super_furry got it spot on, catholic church worried about losing it's grip. Having to baptise kids to get them into school is the only reason a large percentage of people consider themselves catholic.

that's gone* as of last year

* formally - maybe not informally

GLaDOS

lawred2 wrote: »

that's gone* as of last year

* formally - maybe not informally

And that's why they're worried

lawred2

GLaDOS wrote: »

And that's why they're worried

which 'they'? - the church?

I was surprised that the push back in our school came primarily from teachers and the local Helen Lovejoys...

RayCun

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Some of the stuff in that article seems far fetched to the point of being an April Fools article - no saying "Dia Duit" as it references god for example.

Out of interest has any of the stuff mentioned in the article actually come to pass in multi denominational or non denominational schools?

There was a discussion about this in a facebook group I'm on a few weeks ago.

Most multi-denominational schools still say "Dia dhuit" because in practice it has as little to do with religion as "goodbye".

Edgware

RayCun wrote: »

There was a discussion about this in a facebook group I'm on a few weeks ago.

Most multi-denominational schools still say "Dia dhuit" because in practice it has as little to do with religion as "goodbye".

"Goodbye" is derived from " God be with you"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Edgware wrote: »

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Some of the stuff in that article seems far fetched to the point of being an April Fools article - no saying "Dia Duit" as it references god for example.

Out of interest has any of the stuff mentioned in the article actually come to pass in multi denominational or non denominational schools?

Try saying "God bless you" or mentioning Ramadan in the U.S. public school system and see how far you will get.

Happy holidays

In April?!

And to think i try to convince people abroad that the Irish people are intelligent and no longer subservient to the church.

Feckin Indo gets worse every day and people who read it get more moronic.

Berserker

Cienciano wrote: »

"It's pc gone mad. I heard they're bringing sharia law into a school in Balbriggan"

Call to prayer woke us up at 4am. My wife is going to call Joe today.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Berserker wrote: »

Cienciano wrote: »

"It's pc gone mad. I heard they're bringing sharia law into a school in Balbriggan"

Call to prayer woke us up at 4am. My wife is going to call Joe today.

Joe converted to Islam - he's lost to you now.

Edgware

Berserker wrote: »

Call to prayer woke us up at 4am. My wife is going to call Joe today.

Its a disgrace Joe. We will just be finished Lent and they want us to do Ramadan in the interests of bleedin equality.

TomasMacR

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

One can only hope.

Nothing worse than being forced to go to a crap play to watch my kids stand as background furniture.

I don't think the play side of things is going to go away, you'll now just be forced to watch some kind of inclusive nativity scene involving a transgender mother/father thing receiving gifts of vegan snacks. Your kids will still be furniture kids. Furniture kids are usually the most problematic and talentless in any given class, just saying

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

Mod: Thread title changed because fcuk clickbait.

In case anybody is wondering, the old stupidly inaccurate and misleading title was:

Primary Schools to Ban Christmas Celebrations

You should have left it as a warning to others.

JohnnyFlash

Rich folks will continue to send their kids to private faith-based schools. Others can send their kid to one of those lowest-rung educate together places.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Rich folks will continue to send their kids to private faith-based schools. Others can send their kid to one of those lowest-rung educate together places.

That's the second-worst post on this thread.

Wealth means religion ?!

Edgware

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Rich folks will continue to send their kids to private faith-based schools. Others can send their kid to one of those lowest-rung educate together places.

or the "tech"

RayCun

Edgware wrote: »

"Goodbye" is derived from " God be with you"

yes, which was the point.

Atheists don't avoid saying "goodbye" (or "adieu" or ...)

Educate Together schools don't teach children not to say "goodbye"

They don't refuse to teach people "Dia dhuit" either.

RayCun

TomasMacR wrote: »

I don't think the play side of things is going to go away, you'll now just be forced to watch some kind of inclusive nativity scene involving a transgender mother/father thing receiving gifts of vegan snacks. Your kids will still be furniture kids. Furniture kids are usually the most problematic and talentless in any given class, just saying

Educate Together schools usually do some other type of play, not a nativity

Berserker

RayCun wrote: »

Educate Together schools usually do some other type of play, not a nativity

A South Park style Christmas play?

RayCun

Berserker wrote: »

A South Park style Christmas play?

Wizard of Oz, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Peter Pan...

Tacklebox

Berserker wrote: »

A South Park style Christmas play?

I pity the poor kid who'll play Mr Hanky the Christmas poo....

He'll be scarred for life

AndrewJRenko

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Rich folks will continue to send their kids to private faith-based schools. Others can send their kid to one of those lowest-rung educate together places.

You don't really know much about the primary school system in Ireland, do you?