Newbie questions re public sector

lovely lady

Firstly, apologies as I'm sure these questions have been answered elsewhere but can't find the info without reading through pages and pages of threads!

I currently work in the private sector (almost 20 years admin experience) and am considering applying for a job with my local county council. How does the "panel" process work? Do they interview all suitable candidates and then pick from that successful panel if/when a vacancy arises? At what point do they contact your referees (this is a big one as obviously I would need to be careful who I asked if I was only going to be out on a panel indefinitely so couldn't be anyone from my current role, for example). What mandatory deductions are made from salary? Think I saw somewhere that there is a mandatory pension deduction - how much do the council contribute %-wise? Is there a list of qualifications/experience etc required for different grades? There are currently 2 positions available in my local office, one is Grade V and the other is Grade V11. The payscale is higher for Grade VII and would obviously prefer to apply for this (or should/can I apply for both?) but don't know if I'm qualified for it?

Thanks in advance!

Gumbo

lovely lady wrote: »

Firstly, apologies as I'm sure these questions have been answered elsewhere but can't find the info without reading through pages and pages of threads!

I currently work in the private sector (almost 20 years admin experience) and am considering applying for a job with my local county council. How does the "panel" process work? Do they interview all suitable candidates and then pick from that successful panel if/when a vacancy arises? At what point do they contact your referees (this is a big one as obviously I would need to be careful who I asked if I was only going to be out on a panel indefinitely so couldn't be anyone from my current role, for example). What mandatory deductions are made from salary? Think I saw somewhere that there is a mandatory pension deduction - how much do the council contribute %-wise? Is there a list of qualifications/experience etc required for different grades? There are currently 2 positions available in my local office, one is Grade V and the other is Grade V11. The payscale is higher for Grade VII and would obviously prefer to apply for this (or should/can I apply for both?) but don't know if I'm qualified for it?

Thanks in advance!

Interview
Placement on panel
No. 1 gets called first
then No. 2
and so on
They will contact you before contacting your referee from experience.

Grade 7 requires particular experience that a Grade 5 doesn't have, so depending on your personal experience, you can apply for both. It wont go against you.

Riskymove

lovely lady wrote: »

What mandatory deductions are made from salary? Think I saw somewhere that there is a mandatory pension deduction - how much do the council contribute %-wise?

PAYE, PRSI, USC

Pension contribution is now around 13% I think depending on grade. The employer does not contribute anything but the scheme is different to a traditional private sector funded investment scheme.

lovely lady

13% is a lot, especially considering there is no employer contribution. Would definitely have to take that into account when calculating salary etc. Am I right in thinking that they only contact your referee once you are offered or are about to be offered a job rather than just a place on the panel? (Don't want them to potentially call a referee to then just go onto a panel for however long!) Also, do referees have to be related to previous employments etc? The application form just asks for names of responsible people to whom you are personally known and asks for their occupation, but doesn't specify that it needs to be an employment reference? Also, do you include a cover letter if sending a postal application (instructions don't specify)?

Thanks!

Dingle_berry

For the HSE you're placed on a panel. When a position comes up the panel is asked to "express an interest" in the position. A sub panel is made from the main panel (e.g. candidate 1, 3 and 4 don't want the job so the panel is candidates 2 5 6 etc). If you express an interest and get offered a job you're taken off the panel. They're very strict on deadlines for applications and responses.

The no employer contribution is only technically correct. Public and civil servants get a defined benefit pension meaning that the money you'll get is as good as guaranteed. The state (the employer) makes up any shortfall from your contributions.
99-100% of private sector pensions are definied contribution which means that what you put in is set in stone but what you get out depends on how the economy performs etc etc.

Gumbo

Dingle_berry wrote: »

For the HSE you're placed on a panel. When a position comes up the panel is asked to "express an interest" in the position. A sub panel is made from the main panel (e.g. candidate 1, 3 and 4 don't want the job so the panel is candidates 2 5 6 etc). If you express an interest and get offered a job you're taken off the panel. They're very strict on deadlines for applications and responses.

The no employer contribution is only technically correct. Public and civil servants get a defined benefit pension meaning that the money you'll get is as good as guaranteed. The state (the employer) makes up any shortfall from your contributions.
99-100% of private sector pensions are definied contribution which means that what you put in is set in stone but what you get out depends on how the economy performs etc etc.

Worth noting that the employee won’t get a state pension either.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Worth noting that the employee won’t get a state pension either.

not quite how it works. the COAP is a component of the public sector pension. its a distinction worth making because it does mean you would be short that amount for the interim period if you retire before the state pension age.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

not quite how it works. the COAP is a component of the public sector pension. its a distinction worth making because it does mean you would be short that amount for the interim period if you retire before the state pension age.

Same thing yeah. The Public Sector pension has the State Pension built in so the DB element is only for the balance. A person sitting on their backside for the whole life gets the 13k "Defined Benefit" state pension also.

Just so the OP can make an informed decision. Depending on he final salary of the position.

lovely lady

Thanks for the advice re the pension. So, as an example, at the moment my salary is €40k and I contribute 3% to a private pension with employer matching. On average, I get a payrise of approx 2.5% each year (but not guaranteed) with approx 20 years to go to retirement (if I work til then). Minimum entry level salary for Grade 7 position that I'm applying for is €48,978 rising to €63,672. County council position would probably be closer to where I live, reducing travel time and expenses and has more annual leave than my current job. Seems to make sense to me to apply for co co job but I'm still confused about the pension - can anyone explain it in really simple terms? Thanks!

Lux23

A Grade VII is normally for a specialist of some description - it called an Administrative Grade, but most Grade VIIs I know have a very high-level education. Accountants, Marketeers, Lawyers, Finance specialists etc.

Gumbo

lovely lady wrote: »

Thanks for the advice re the pension. So, as an example, at the moment my salary is €40k and I contribute 3% to a private pension with employer matching. On average, I get a payrise of approx 2.5% each year (but not guaranteed) with approx 20 years to go to retirement (if I work til then). Minimum entry level salary for Grade 7 position that I'm applying for is €48,978 rising to €63,672. County council position would probably be closer to where I live, reducing travel time and expenses and has more annual leave than my current job. Seems to make sense to me to apply for co co job but I'm still confused about the pension - can anyone explain it in really simple terms? Thanks!

You will start on the base salary of 48k. Unless you are currently in the PS, then you will go in on a level that matches the next scale up on that scale. Lets say you make it to the top scale of 63k. With 20 years service you will get a pension lump sum of 47,250 and a pension of 15,750 per year. No State pension on top as discussed (its built in).

To give a median average or ballpark, on a 55.7k salary, you'll pay approx. every fortnight :
107 pension, 71 USC and 94 ASC (pension levy).

You'll also pay PRSI and PAYE obviously.

Lux23 wrote: »

A Grade VII is normally for a specialist of some description - it called an Administrative Grade, but most Grade VIIs I know have a very high-level education. Accountants, Marketeers, Lawyers, Finance specialists etc.

Grade 7 Admin is an AO (Administrative Officer).
In the Council, they will have a Grade 6 under them and that Grade 6 will have some staff of Grade 4 and Grade 3.

Dingle_berry

lovely lady wrote: »

but I'm still confused about the pension - can anyone explain it in really simple terms? Thanks!

Which part are you confused about?

You are probably contributing to a defined contribution pension now. The money you contribute doesn't sit in a bank until you retire. The pension company buys and sells stuff with it to make it grow. But there is no guarantee that there won't be a massive economic crash just before you retire...
The money you're putting in is a known certainty, the money you'll get out is a mystery.
You'll also get the (means tested) PRSI state pension when you retire.

If you join the public sector you will probably get a defined benefit pension. Depending on your length of service and point on the payscale when you retire the money you'll get from that pension is defined - it is a certainty. The only way your contributions affect it is in calculating the length of service.
The PRSI state pension is included in your total pension sum.

Riskymove

lovely lady wrote: »

Seems to make sense to me to apply for co co job but I'm still confused about the pension - can anyone explain it in really simple terms? Thanks!

the new single pension scheme is not as easy to explain as previous schemes

Basically the pension entitlements you get used to be based on your final salary. instead, under the new scheme the "salary" that entitlements are based on will be based on a calculation on average earnings over your career.

You build up a particular amount of pension and lump sump each year and is based on a minimum retirement age of 68

You can get info, including a tool to estimate pensions here:
https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/

As has been mentioned the OAP Contributory pension is part of the pension arrangements.

using the tool I entered details for someone entering the scheme now working 20 years until retirement earning 50k a year as an example

This estimates a pension of €6,000 pa in addition to OAP (lump sum of 38k)

Riskymove

kceire wrote: »

You will start on the base salary of 48k. Unless you are currently in the PS, then you will go in on a level that matches the next scale up on that scale. Lets say you make it to the top scale of 63k. With 20 years service you will get a pension lump sum of 47,250 and a pension of 31,500 per year. No State pension on top as discussed.

To give a median average or ballpark, on a 55.7k salary, you'll pay approx. every fortnight :
107 pension, 71 USC and 94 ASC (pension levy).

I think what you have set out here relates to the "old way" not what someone now entering the single pensions scheme would be experiencing

actually I don't think anyone could get a 31.5k pension on a salary of 63k after 20 years

BTW there is no pension levy now, it has become another superannuation payment so effectively it would be "201 pension"

lovely lady

so, in simple terms - is the pension for the private sector or the public sector better?

Riskymove

The big issue, as mentioned, is that you would get your private pension on top of your OAP while this is not the case for the Public one

as a result there may not be any significant difference between the two actual pensions (however there may be in terms of the lump sum if one is expected from your private pension)

of course you would also get some private pension from whatever you have built up today in addition to the public pension

You would need to have a reasonable estimate of what your private pension will expect to be in 20 years time to have any proper comparison of the two

Gumbo

Riskymove wrote: »

I think what you have set out here relates to the "old way" not what someone now entering the single pensions scheme would be experiencing

actually I don't think anyone could get a 31.5k pension on a salary of 63k after 20 years

BTW there is no pension levy now, it has become another superannuation payment so effectively it would be "201 pension"

Sorry, I forgot to half the half

the Pension I should have quoted was 15,750e.

On the Pay slips, they are still separated by the following :

Superannuation.
ASU.

lovely lady

Thanks! And what would happen if I left the public sector after say 10 years to return to the private sector? Would I lose all the pension contributions that I have contributed or would this be held until retirement age?

Riskymove

lovely lady wrote: »

Thanks! And what would happen if I left the public sector after say 10 years to return to the private sector? Would I lose all the pension contributions that I have contributed or would this be held until retirement age?

they would be held until retirement age

seamie78

less contributory pension so that would leave nothing

sunshinew

seamie78 wrote: »

less contributory pension so that would leave nothing

Woah, what does this mean? I've been 12 years in the public sector and thinking of getting out. Are you saying if I leave, what I've already paid in is just going towards the state pension which I'd have got for doing nothing anyway?

seamie78

not sure but that is what it sounds like, id say there are people who know more than me here

Riskymove

sunshinew wrote: »

Woah, what does this mean? I've been 12 years in the public sector and thinking of getting out. Are you saying if I leave, what I've already paid in is just going towards the state pension which I'd have got for doing nothing anyway?

well that depends on your current level and salary

If you are in 12 years I guess you are on the 2004 New Entrant Scheme


if you left today with 12 years service and earned, say 30k

you would get just 1,800 per annum at age 65 (plus a lump sum of 13k)


If you earn 60k then you'd get around 5k pension (plus 27k lump sum)

seamie78

is the state pension not taken into account, if they had 40 years service on 30 k the pension would be 15k less 12 k state pension giving an actual pension of 3k.

The_Honeybadger

I’d imagine that most Grade VII’s would be promoted from within unless it’s a specialist post, e.g. a scientist in the Environment section. You can be sure that virtually every Grade V & VI in the council (and neighbouring councils) will be going for the general Grade VII panel and their experience will go a long way in the interview process. I do think they have to appoint a certain number of external people but you’d want to have a lot of experience in a related sector. No harm in applying though. It’s a good job if you can get it.

Grade V is lower management and would be less competitive in terms of being up against existing staff as there is a big jump in salary and responsibilities from Grade IV to grade V. Grade IV’s wouldn’t normally be degree qualified as it’s very much a junior / admin position.

Riskymove

seamie78 wrote: »

is the state pension not taken into account, if they had 40 years service on 30 k the pension would be 15k less 12 k state pension giving an actual pension of 3k.

there must be some minimum amount

even someone with just 2 years service would get 300 per annum

GalwayGrrrrrl

lovely lady wrote: »

Firstly, apologies as I'm sure these questions have been answered elsewhere but can't find the info without reading through pages and pages of threads!

I currently work in the private sector (almost 20 years admin experience) and am considering applying for a job with my local county council. How does the "panel" process work? Do they interview all suitable candidates and then pick from that successful panel if/when a vacancy arises? At what point do they contact your referees (this is a big one as obviously I would need to be careful who I asked if I was only going to be out on a panel indefinitely so couldn't be anyone from my current role, for example). What mandatory deductions are made from salary? Think I saw somewhere that there is a mandatory pension deduction - how much do the council contribute %-wise? Is there a list of qualifications/experience etc required for different grades? There are currently 2 positions available in my local office, one is Grade V and the other is Grade V11. The payscale is higher for Grade VII and would obviously prefer to apply for this (or should/can I apply for both?) but don't know if I'm qualified for it?

Thanks in advance!

Just to give you an idea, I’ve got 20 years experience in hse, two masters degrees and I didn’t get on the panel for a grade v11 job I interviewed for last year. Okay, so the job was different to what I’m doing now (on similar pay scale but different department) but I just wanted to give you an idea of who is applying for grade v11 jobs. You may have better qualifications and experience than me, in which case- good luck!

seamie78

You would think so, but I wouldn't be so sure

Clareman

Sorry for jumping in here but can someone explain the public service pension for new hires.

If you have the public service pension you don't get the "state" pension and you have to wait until 68 when you get it, is that right? Also, does the money come out of salary or is it seperate? If you have a private pension you can draw on it at any stage after 60 I think. Looking at the link posted above the public services pension looks extremely poor compared to private pensions which is a major shock to me I always thought the 2 reasons to join the public service was job security and pension.

The_Honeybadger

With the new pension does anybody know if you can buy additional years if you are a late entrant?

Kilmolin

A few clarifications:
If you leave the Public Service before normal retiring age (this varies from age 60, to 65, to 66,67 and 68) your pension is preserved until that age, or if you join another public sector body, you can transfer it.
If you joined from 1995 your pension is integrated with the Social Welfare state pension. This means the occupational element is lower, by as much as the full state pension, close to €13K. If you retire before that pension is payable on age grounds (say at 60 if you joined in 2000) you cannot get the state pension, so there is a shortfall. This explains the calculation given earlier:

“If you are in 12 years I guess you are on the 2004 New Entrant Scheme
if you left today with 12 years service and earned, say 30k
you would get just 1,800 per annum at age 65 (plus a lump sum of 13k)”

This is correct for the occupational pension and the state pension is assumed to not be payable on age grounds.
However you may be entitled to the supplementary pension.
There are conditions attached, primarily that you are not in insurable employment and have exhausted all other Social Welfare payments.
This should bring the pension up to the pre-1995 (Class D PRSI) level, 4.5K.

Entrants after 2013 do not face this issue simply because no pension is payable before the state pension age (now 66, rising to 67 in 2021 and 68 in 2028).

I hope this helps...

Gumbo

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

With the new pension does anybody know if you can buy additional years if you are a late entrant?

Financially not worthwhile in my opinion.
I was quoted 13k to buy one year at one stage.

Better to open an AVC if you start in the PS and you know you wont have full service.

The_Honeybadger

kceire wrote: »

Financially not worthwhile in my opinion.
I was quoted 13k to buy one year at one stage.

Better to open an AVC if you start in the PS and you know you wont have full service.

Yes I’m a new entrant at a relatively senior level. I won’t have full service if I stay until retirement. Pension offereing isn’t great tbh and I am looking at AVC’s and other options.

caviardreams

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Yes I’m a new entrant at a relatively senior level. I won’t have full service if I stay until retirement. Pension offereing isn’t great tbh and I am looking at AVC’s and other options.

I thought for those on the 2013 single scheme that it was not even possible to buy back years?

The_Honeybadger

caviardreams wrote: »

I thought for those on the 2013 single scheme that it was not even possible to buy back years?

Yes you are right. Kceire was saying it’s not worth it even if you could. You can open a separate approved avc though and your employer will collect the contributions.

Riskymove

Clareman wrote: »

If you have the public service pension you don't get the "state" pension and you have to wait until 68 when you get it, is that right?

that's correct, it is an integrated pension scheme

it is a growing issue now for people given the extension of OAP up to 68 and probably higher over time

technically you can go o the dole or seek a supplementary pension but there are issues around that.

It is likely something that will be looked for by Unions to be resolved to give certainty to pensioners.

Also, does the money come out of salary or is it seperate?

it is deducted from wages

the public services pension looks extremely poor compared to private pensions which is a major shock to me I always thought the 2 reasons to join the public service was job security and pension.

if you are going to work in PS for 40+ years and move up to a certain level the PS pension is still very good

the issue is for people now joining as only part of a career who may already have a private pension or people who retire at a lower grade

Geuze

Riskymove wrote: »

PAYE, PRSI, USC

Pension contribution is now around 13% I think depending on grade. The employer does not contribute anything but the scheme is different to a traditional private sector funded investment scheme.

PS pay 6.5% pension conts, but it is not 6.5% of your gross pay. It is complicated.


The 2008/2009 crisis saw another pension cont introduced, the PRD, now renamed the ASC.

It is also complicated.

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2018/21.pdf

For new entrants to the PS, since 2014, the ASC will be:

First 32,000 = 0%
Next 28,000 = 6.66%
Balance = 7%

In 2020, this becomes:


First 32,000 = 0%
Next 28,000 = 3.33%
Balance = 3.5%

Clareman

Riskymove wrote: »

that's correct, it is an integrated pension scheme

it is a growing issue now for people given the extension of OAP up to 68 and probably higher over time

technically you can go o the dole or seek a supplementary pension but there are issues around that.

It is likely something that will be looked for by Unions to be resolved to give certainty to pensioners.






it is deducted from wages




if you are going to work in PS for 40+ years and move up to a certain level the PS pension is still very good

the issue is for people now joining as only part of a career who may already have a private pension or people who retire at a lower grade

Thanks a million for taking the time to reply, much appreciated. As a 40+ year old who has never worked for the PS I think it would be madness to join the PS now, private pension seems a far better option for me.

Geuze

Clareman wrote: »

Sorry for jumping in here but can someone explain the public service pension for new hires.

If you have the public service pension you don't get the "state" pension and you have to wait until 68 when you get it, is that right? Also, does the money come out of salary or is it seperate? If you have a private pension you can draw on it at any stage after 60 I think. Looking at the link posted above the public services pension looks extremely poor compared to private pensions which is a major shock to me I always thought the 2 reasons to join the public service was job security and pension.

Everybody paying enough PRSI will receive the State Pension Contributory (SPC), including PS hired since April 1995.

The thing is that the PS pension and the SPC are integrated.

Kilmolin

For staff who join the Public Service after 2013 it not an issue as they can not claim any pension until they reach state pension age (now 66, 67 in 2021, 68 in 2028).

For staff who joined between 1995 and 2013, the occupational pension is combined with the state pension to give the total.
The state pension cannot be claimed until the ages above, but a staff member joining between 1995 and 2004 can retire from age 60; its 65 from 2004 to 2013. That does leave them short of the state pension for some years, but despite the reservations expressed above, the supplementary pension is designed precisely to fill that gap. The two serious reservations I am aware of are:
- you cannot be in insurable employment and draw it
- you must draw any other Social Welfare benefit
However, that said, the supplementary pension should completely make up for the gap.
So
Supplementary pension = Traditional pre 1995 pension - (current occupational pension + social welfare benefits)
The social welfare benefit could for example be the dole.
The main drawback is that you cannot be in insurable employment. If (say) a retiree who joined in 1996 retires with a substantial pension and starts work again, they could not claim the state pension (too young) and will not get the supplementary pension as they are in work.
if that same person joined in 1994 (Class D PRSI) there is no social welfare element to the pension so the full amount is payable.

Riskymove

Geuze wrote: »

It is complicated.

indeed

I think the 13% is a ball park based on the experience to date for those on previous schemes

it will vary depending on salary

Clareman

Geuze wrote: »

Everybody paying enough PRSI will receive the State Pension Contributory (SPC), including PS hired since April 1995.

The thing is that the PS pension and the SPC are integrated.

So everyone working for the entire adult life (say 45 years) is entitled to €248.30 per week at 68, how much "extra" would someone joining the PS now for the next 20 years get?

Riskymove

Kilmolin wrote: »

, the supplementary pension is designed precisely to fill that gap.

yes but as you set out there are issues arising

Unions would like to see a similar but more certain approach to filling the gap.

Riskymove

Clareman wrote: »

So everyone working for the entire adult life (say 45 years) is entitled to €248.30 per week at 68, how much "extra" would someone joining the PS now for the next 20 years get?

it will depend on what salary they earn each year of those 45

Riskymove

Clareman wrote: »

Thanks a million for taking the time to reply, much appreciated. As a 40+ year old who has never worked for the PS I think it would be madness to join the PS now, private pension seems a far better option for me.

well of course you would have your private pension, your public pension and the state pension

it really does depend on the level of your job

Clareman

Riskymove wrote: »

it will depend on what salary they earn each year of those 45

Lets say it's the average public sector salaray in both cases, €47,400.

Source: https://www.businessworld.ie/financial-news/Average-public-sector-wages-are-47-400-in-Ireland--567926.html

Riskymove

Clareman wrote: »

Lets say it's the average public sector salaray in both cases, €47,400.

at 48,000 and using certain assumptions about increases etc the estimator estimates:

lump sum 82k

pension 12.7k

OAP 13k



that is someone starting at 48k now and working until 2063

Geuze

Clareman wrote: »

So everyone working for the entire adult life (say 45 years) is entitled to €248.30 per week at 68, how much "extra" would someone joining the PS now for the next 20 years get?

As the new PS is based on career-average earnings, then it's impossible to say.

It's not easy to find the benefit accrual rate - have you found it?

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/for-members/scheme-information/

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Scheme-Booklet.pdf

Geuze

Clareman wrote: »

So everyone working for the entire adult life (say 45 years) is entitled to €248.30 per week at 68, how much "extra" would someone joining the PS now for the next 20 years get?

See p16 of Scheme Booklet.

caviardreams

Riskymove wrote: »

at 48,000 and using certain assumptions about increases etc the estimator estimates:

lump sum 82k

pension 12.7k

OAP 13k



that is someone starting at 48k now and working until 2063

Is the lump sum not 1.5* average salary so 72k?
And then the annual payment is half average salary so 24k in total including OAP?

This is based on full years of service of course (40 and upwards)

Also it is a total bug bear of mine that benefits are capped based on 40 years service, even if you have paid in for more e.g. 45. Especially now the retirement age goes up to 70. I feel you should not have to pay pension contributions above 40 years service as it's very unfair that two people with 40 and 45 years service on identical salary get the same benefits when one has contributed more. (End of rant, sorry!)

Riskymove

caviardreams wrote: »

Is the lump sum not 1.5* average salary so 72k?
And then the annual payment is half average salary so 24k in total including OAP?

This is based on full years of service of course (40 and upwards)

No

The figures you quote would be correct for someone on the previous pension scheme i.e. pre-2014

such schemes are (with full 40 years service) based on a lump sum of 1.5x and a pension of 50% of your final salary

the new single pension scheme as outlined above is a very different approach

Also it is a total bug bear of mine that benefits are capped based on 40 years service, even if you have paid in for more e.g. 45. Especially now the retirement age goes up to 70. I feel you should not have to pay pension contributions above 40 years service as it's very unfair that two people with 40 and 45 years service on identical salary get the same benefits when one has contributed more. (End of rant, sorry!)

yes that is a common complaint

it will become more common now with increased retirement age


I noted that the recent scheme to allow people work to 66 (now defunct) worked on the basis that the person retire at 65 and then continue employment but drop to the first point on their pay scale while paying no further superannuation

some version of this could be implemented for people who hit 40 years but remain working