CUMH mother and baby incident

pwurple

Just saw that poor baby in CUMH died...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/baby-of-woman-found-dead-in-cumh-in-critical-condition-913501.html

So sad. And really brings back those memories of being alone in the CUMH rooms after giving birth with the baby, heavily bleeding, with no assistance for hours.

MarkR

That is NOT a feel good story. We have two children, born ten years apart (both in Limerick). Massive difference in the level of support you got with our first. You'd need to be coding for anyone to come into you second time around.

lawred2

I was stopped in my tracks this morning taking the young fella to creche when I heard that story.

Just so awful for that family. I believe that she had two other children and I presume a partner. The grief and pain that some people have to endure is just simply not fair.

lawred2

MarkR wrote: »

That is NOT a feel good story. We have two children, born ten years apart (both in Limerick). Massive difference in the level of support you got with our first. You'd need to be coding for anyone to come into you second time around.

That is something my wife and I can't say about the Rotunda. Three children spread across 5 years. Top notch care each and every time and they weren't all straightforward.

First required forceps and cutting
Second resulted in young fella in ICU for three weeks
Third was a c-section

Neyite

It's such a sad story.



I know single rooms give much more dignity and privacy to the patient but the wards give visibility to others if you suddenly need help such as falling or having a medical episode - someone can hit the call button for you.

Digs

Some stories just gut punch you and this is one of them. I recently had my third baby, like she did, I can’t stop thinking about her and her poor baby.

It’s just the saddest story.

SusieBlue

I understand the baby has since also passed away, due to the extensive physical and brain injuries incurred.
Its one of the saddest, most tragic stories I've ever heard.
It beggars belief how it even happened.

Thoughts are with her poor family, this should have been one of the happiest times of their lives and its ended like this.
Just tragic.

TheBoyConor

The hospital has described the incident, which took place this morning, as “a tragic occurrence”.

What are we to infer from this? Is it case of died in "tragic circumstances"?

mitresize5

no - she fell getting out of bed, unfortunately on top of the new born

theres nothing to read between the lines

SusieBlue

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The hospital has described the incident, which took place this morning, as “a tragic occurrence”.

What are we to infer from this? Is it case of died in "tragic circumstances"?

They believe she either had a fit or some sort of collapsing episode and fell out of the bed with the baby in her arms, and landed on top of the child.

She was in a private room, therefore no one was around to raise the alarm until she was checked on an hour later by staff. I believe they were checking on an hourly basis, and it happened in between checks.

It was a perfect storm. I live locally and heard the staff who found her were in bits. Its just so sad, its awful for them too.

Milly33

So horrible, heard it also on the radio this morning that the little one passed away. Really very sad, I hope that this was a horrible accident and not something like negligence..

Very hard really feel for the family

whiskeyman

One of the papers online speculated a possible medical seizure of sorts, but all were corrected to a tragic incident after / while breastfeeding.

That poor family and partner especially.
From the elation of the best news and sending texts to family and friends of your new addition to this.
Heartbreaking

Thiught with the staff members and other mother's on the ward.

TheBoyConor

It could have been an aneurysm or stroke or something.

seamus

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The hospital has described the incident, which took place this morning, as “a tragic occurrence”.

What are we to infer from this? Is it case of died in "tragic circumstances"?

No, I don't think that's it.

I think the implication is that it was a random but serious and unforseeable incident not caused by complications of childbirth. It doesn't necessarily have to have been a stroke or a seizure. Even a simple slip getting out of bed could have been fatal, especially as her instinct would have tried to protect the baby rather than break her own fall.
Of course, one would expect the hospital to avoid saying anything which could suggest fault. So...

I can't imagine getting this news, it's desperately sad.

It may not necessarily have been an issue in this case, but I certainly think hospitals - maternity ones in particular - should make a big deal of encouraging patients to use the call bell for any and all assistance, no matter how frivolous. Patients feel like they're bothering the nursing staff and would rather try sort it themselves first, but you can end up in serious bother.

shesty

Mod Note

Please refrain from conjecture as to the possible reasons behind this incident.

pwurple

Neyite wrote: »

It's such a sad story.



I know single rooms give much more dignity and privacy to the patient but the wards give visibility to others if you suddenly need help such as falling or having a medical episode - someone can hit the call button for you.

There are no wards in CUMH by deisgn, it's single, double or 4 bed rooms. I was in a double room for both of my births there, on my own for a lot of the time.

They do Rooming in there. I wonder will this result in a review of that process.

pwurple

lawred2 wrote: »

That is something my wife and I can't say about the Rotunda. Three children spread across 5 years. Top notch care each and every time and they weren't all straightforward.

First required forceps and cutting
Second resulted in young fella in ICU for three weeks
Third was a c-section

I don't think is about the birth though, I couldn't fault my care either.

It's more about women and babies being left alone in beds afterwards, and the risk there.

LouD2016

I had my son in a midlands hospital almost two years and I remember not getting to close my eyes for ten minutes without a doctor or a nurse coming into the room and checking something. At the time it felt annoying but hearing this story im glad for it now.

So so sad for the family.

shesty

Have also had three in the Rotunda, and they are constantly checking you.

Such a sad, sad story.As someone else said, it really hit me in the gut when I saw it.

lazygal

Couldn't stop thinking about this. I was the same as as her having my third, got a private room following a c section. I was checked regularly but there was certainly an hour between checks where it was me and baby alone, even though my husband and mother were regular visitors. I don't know what should happen going forward. Rooming in was my preferred option for breastfeeding. I hated being on larger wards, my recovery was much easier once I got my own room and I needed the privacy. The poor children who've lost a brother and mother, it is just an awful situation.

The HorsesMouth

Really felt the need to post

I had my 2nd baby last year in a midlands hospital. I had a c section and I have to say the care I received was poor at times. My first night there the nurses were so busy they could not help feed/change baby. So I had to make sure I had everything within arms reach. I rang the bell but they would just take baby out and hand them to me and go again..and they kept saying how busy they were etc and making me feel like i would be bothering them if I asked for help. Bare in mind i still could not move my legs from the c section. I'm not saying that thats what happened this poor woman and her baby in Cork but I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about the dropping standards on maternity wards..through no fault of the nurses themselves, they are just so under pressure.

lawred2

pwurple wrote: »

I don't think is about the birth though, I couldn't fault my care either.

It's more about women and babies being left alone in beds afterwards, and the risk there.

I'm speaking exactly of the frequency of checks... it was constant

LouD2016

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

Really felt the need to post

I had my 2nd baby last year in a midlands hospital. I had a c section and I have to say the care I received was poor at times. My first night there the nurses were so busy they could not help feed/change baby. So I had to make sure I had everything within arms reach. I rang the bell but they would just take baby out and hand them to me and go again..and they kept saying how busy they were etc and making me feel like i would be bothering them if I asked for help. Bare in mind i still could not move my legs from the c section. I'm not saying that thats what happened this poor woman and her baby in Cork but I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about the dropping standards on maternity wards..through no fault of the nurses themselves, they are just so under pressure.

We were talking about this today and a colleague of mine said the exact same. She had no help in the ward after her section and had to sleep with the baby on the bed with her as she was unable to lift the baby into the crib beside the bed.
You can see how accidents can happen

lazygal

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

Really felt the need to post

I had my 2nd baby last year in a midlands hospital. I had a c section and I have to say the care I received was poor at times. My first night there the nurses were so busy they could not help feed/change baby. So I had to make sure I had everything within arms reach. I rang the bell but they would just take baby out and hand them to me and go again..and they kept saying how busy they were etc and making me feel like i would be bothering them if I asked for help. Bare in mind i still could not move my legs from the c section. I'm not saying that thats what happened this poor woman and her baby in Cork but I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about the dropping standards on maternity wards..through no fault of the nurses themselves, they are just so under pressure.

I had the worst care after having my second baby. I had a wristband stating I was allergic to a common painkiller and on the semi private ward every single nurse who brought me pain relief failed to note my allergy. I had to remind them, I dread to think what could have happened if I wasn't able to communicate well. That wasn't nursing staff being overstretched, that was carelessness. I learned that you have to be the squeaky wheel, pain in the arse patient to get attention too. The care improved dramatically once I got onto a private ward with my own room.

tretorn

I visited a young relative in a Holles Street public ward and it was just horrible. Beds packed in together and the new mums had to push the baby to another room to change them, I dont think there was even a sink in this eight bedded room, it was just beds lined up along two walls with horrible plastic curtains between them.

SusieBlue

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

Really felt the need to post

I had my 2nd baby last year in a midlands hospital. I had a c section and I have to say the care I received was poor at times. My first night there the nurses were so busy they could not help feed/change baby. So I had to make sure I had everything within arms reach. I rang the bell but they would just take baby out and hand them to me and go again..and they kept saying how busy they were etc and making me feel like i would be bothering them if I asked for help. Bare in mind i still could not move my legs from the c section. I'm not saying that thats what happened this poor woman and her baby in Cork but I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about the dropping standards on maternity wards..through no fault of the nurses themselves, they are just so under pressure.

My cousin had a very traumatic birth in CUMH last year, it was her first baby, 30 hour labor, failed forceps followed by an emergency section.
Baby was eventually born at around 1am in the morning, and her partner was only allowed stay until just after 2am, when he was made leave.

They were both first time parents in their early 20's, she had a long painful labor and a traumatic birth.
She was absolutely exhausted, she had no idea what to do with a baby and she was immobile from the waist down.
She was basically abandoned and left to her own devices. She kept buzzing for help but was made feel a nuisance of because they were so busy.

Eventually when her mum came to visit the next day (at which point she'd still had no sleep since going into labor) and saw how upset and distressed her daughter was, she ripped the midwife in a charge a new one. Her care after that improved but it was too little too late.

The aftercare was absolutely shocking.

margo321

such a sad case. so sad for family.

shesty

Some of these stories are shocking.As with another poster I have had three in the Rotunda in the last four years.The first time the staff were totally overstretched, it was absolute chaos (semi-p).By the time my third arrived last year it was unbelievable the change that had taken place.Staff are certainly busy and stretched, but they came to help when needed, carried out observations regularly, pharmacist came every morning and introduced themselves and asked about any drug allergies (every morning...), the whole thing felt a lot more seamless, although I could see they were still understaffed.

That thing Holles St have of making mothers wheel the baby down the hall to change them -I just do not get that.Even C-section mothers.What is that for??Sorry, I rarely criticise individual hospitals because you have good and bad in both, but I cannot make sense of that.

There is no doubt but maternity services in this country need a major overhaul to a point where they are all brought in line, instead of practices varying so much between hospitals.

I know this is totally off the point of the thread, but it angers me so much.And if I were some of you I would stand up and go back and complain.Childbirth is a natural thing, so we don't view it in the same light as an operation or an injury, but it doesn't mean we should lie down and take whatever is dished out to us in the circumstances either.The thing is that BECAUSE it is a process ending in a predictable result,it should be easier to standardise the care for it across the hospitals. Things won't improve unless we shout about it.

pwurple

You know you're right shesty, we kind of accept it once we're out the far side with a healthy baby. I did write a letter after my first baby about that, and got a response about how "rooming in" was policy for breastfeeding, and visiting hours were there for women to get rest. They don't see that those two things conflict.


I simply don't get how it can be best practice to leave a woman alone in a room to look after a newborn after giving birth. Visitors were banned from my stays as well. My mum, friends or husband would gladly have stayed with me, to give me a hand, but were kicked out.

It is the riskiest time in a woman's life. You can heamorrhage, fall, anything. We should be minded, looked after in those days after birth. Not put in a room, immobile, with the sole responsibility for a newborn. And I don't mean wards of other women who are also in labour or who have just given birth. I mean have family, or a doula or nurse or porter or someone there to help out.

lazygal

I noticed a significant difference between having my third in September 2018 and my other two five and six years ago, all in Holles Street. The care and many other things were significantly better. I didn't bother wheeling baby to change, I changed him on a towel on the bed. No one insisted we leave the room to change baby.

Neyite

pwurple wrote: »

There are no wards in CUMH by deisgn, it's single, double or 4 bed rooms. I was in a double room for both of my births there, on my own for a lot of the time.

They do Rooming in there. I wonder will this result in a review of that process.

They do it here too. I'd say they'll look at everything but probably until the cause of death is determined they won't know where exactly to focus the investigation.

bladespin

We had a very near miss on our first, mother and baby had been in difficulty which resulted in an emergency C section at about 3 am (after 30+ hours in labor), all turned out well, I minded the little man while mammy was looked after in the theater, we were brought upstairs to the ward where I gave the baby a bottle, Mrs spin was bought in after a while and we had some lovely time together.

After a while I realized we'd gone into the hospital in such a rush that bags etc had been left in the car so mentioned to the nurse that I was going to run out and get my partner her things. Mrs spin looked pretty wrecked at that stage and along with the drugs she'd been given I was sure she was about to fall asleep, I went to put baby in the crib but the nurse told me to leave him with mammy to bond (a great idea I thought).

The car park was quite a way away, about a 10min walk each way, not to mention the time it took getting back to the 4th floor and access to the maternity ward (very secure) when I walked into the room I found the baby hanging over the edge of the bed with just his leg hooked into mammy's elbow, with the mrs completely out of it, I grabbed him in near heart attack myself, all was ok though (thankfully), the mrs asked about it next day but was totally shushed off but the staff, they treated her quite badly IMO but apparently that's how they treated all the younger mums, sink or swim considering she'd just had surgery I think it was nothing short of negligent but typically said and did nothing

LegacyUser

i had both mine in the CUMH,


the first time around all the staff we came into contact with were lovely, i was in a 2 bed room, and my husband (and the partner of the women in the room with me) stayed the whole time i was in there, he was allowed come and go as needed and never was stopped from even staying in the bed with me during the nights and helping with the baby.

the second time around i went with the domino scheme there and it was amazing, the only fault i had was they had to put me into a ward upstairs for a few hours before they could discharge us (2 bed room again but i was on my own in there), the midwife working in the ward to put it mildly was horrible, she was so rough she made my daughter cry (and me too) to the point that when my husband saw how distressed she had made us, we demanded to see the domino midwife again and got her to get us discharged faster to get home and away from the ward midwife...

once we got home again the care for us was ridiculously high and well administered (although because i cried in the ward i was being overly watched for postnatal), couldn't fault them.

so i believe with the CUMH it really depends on which ward you are in, and who you get to tend to you, everyone seems to have "really really happy with it" or "really awful care" stories and i think it stems from the odd midwife or two that are just terrible.

RoamingDoc

SusieBlue wrote: »

she ripped the midwife in a charge a new one. Her care after that improved but it was too little too late.

Quite an unfair thing to do imo. Why not rip your TD a new one? Or the Minister for Health?
These units are insanely underfunded. It's not the fault of staff that care is substandard when there are none of them around.

pwurple wrote: »

Visitors were banned from my stays as well.

Unfortunately this is a risk control measure. Maternity units try very hard to control who is and who is not within their departments and try to minimise extra people being there.
The goal of this is to ensure that newborns aren't stolen.
I know how extreme that sounds but it's very distressing for parents and staff when these things happen. Occurred in Cork in the old Erinville hospital a few years back - staff who used to work there before they were moved to CUMH still talk about it.

maxsmum

I think this is just an awful, rare, tragic accident. We are generally a very safe country in terms of maternal morbidity and mortality. I HOPE this is just one of those horrible stories that thankfully is more of a freak accident or those statistically rare events that can happen postnatally like clots etc than some sort of negligence on the hospital's part. She was there for four days and this happened in the space of an hour.

Whatever the cause, RIP to both.

LouD2016

bladespin wrote: »

We had a very near miss on our first, mother and baby had been in difficulty which resulted in an emergency C section at about 3 am (after 30+ hours in labor), all turned out well, I minded the little man while mammy was looked after in the theater, we were brought upstairs to the ward where I gave the baby a bottle, Mrs spin was bought in after a while and we had some lovely time together.

After a while I realized we'd gone into the hospital in such a rush that bags etc had been left in the car so mentioned to the nurse that I was going to run out and get my partner her things. Mrs spin looked pretty wrecked at that stage and along with the drugs she'd been given I was sure she was about to fall asleep, I went to put baby in the crib but the nurse told me to leave him with mammy to bond (a great idea I thought).

The car park was quite a way away, about a 10min walk each way, not to mention the time it took getting back to the 4th floor and access to the maternity ward (very secure) when I walked into the room I found the baby hanging over the edge of the bed with just his leg hooked into mammy's elbow, with the mrs completely out of it, I grabbed him in near heart attack myself, all was ok though (thankfully), the mrs asked about it next day but was totally shushed off but the staff, they treated her quite badly IMO but apparently that's how they treated all the younger mums, sink or swim considering she'd just had surgery I think it was nothing short of negligent but typically said and did nothing

Oh my god you must have gotten some fright.

Its madness. I had a really long labour and every sort of drug pumped into me at the end. My little lad ended up in special care unit for 3 days. I was so out of the night I had him that I was texting my husband that night saying I was going to marry him and talking about people I followed on snapchat... pure ramblings. Now obviously I didn't want my son to be in special care but there was no way I would have been capable to mind him properly that 1st night.

OctoberMammy

shesty wrote: »

That thing Holles St have of making mothers wheel the baby down the hall to change them -I just do not get that.Even C-section mothers.What is that for??Sorry, I rarely criticise individual hospitals because you have good and bad in both, but I cannot make sense of that.

That was such a pain to do when I had my baby there. If I was doing it again, I wouldn't bother.

The CUMH is so devastatingly sad. Been thinking about it all day.

pwurple

RoamingDoc wrote: »

Unfortunately this is a risk control measure. Maternity units try very hard to control who is and who is not within their departments and try to minimise extra people being there.
The goal of this is to ensure that newborns aren't stolen.
I know how extreme that sounds but it's very distressing for parents and staff when these things happen. Occurred in Cork in the old Erinville hospital a few years back - staff who used to work there before they were moved to CUMH still talk about it.

The tags on babies are for that too aren't they?

And absolutely, yes you don't want the whole place traipsing through with visitors. Control of infection, and the general chaos from visitors. But in my opinion, someone should be allowed with the mother no matter what the time of day. Not only allowed, but even encouraged, if the mother wants it. Not an army, just one person to help out.

There is clearly a risk not being controlled for here, mothers being left unattended. It absolutely felt unsafe to me at the time.

Near misses being mentioned in this thread, I wonder how many were recorded as that...

RoamingDoc

pwurple wrote: »

The tags on babies are for that too aren't they?

Tags can be removed.
And in doing so, could be a source of injury for an infant.

I don't agree with such huge restrictions on visitation but I can understand where the concerns come from and why the restrictions are in place.

Digs

OctoberMammy wrote: »

That was such a pain to do when I had my baby there. If I was doing it again, I wouldn't bother.

The CUMH is so devastatingly sad. Been thinking about it all day.

I’ve had 3 in HS and always changed them in the cubicle without issue.

For anyone interested Holles Street have a patient voice group, I was actually in touch with them yesterday coincidentally. They meet the second Wednesday of every month with current and past patients to get feedback on how services can be improved. Next meeting is Wednesday 10th April at 10am for an hour in the midwives sitting room. If anyone would like to go get in touch on their website.

Duffryman

RoamingDoc wrote: »

Quite an unfair thing to do imo. Why not rip your TD a new one? Or the Minister for Health?

Was it the TD's or Minister's fault that the partner was told to leave, less than an hour after the birth of his child?

Our own lad was born around 2 a.m. Staff in our hospital had no issue with me staying there around the clock. I may have been a pretty clueless first-time dad, but at least I could give some sort of moral support to my wife during the times there was no nurse/midwife able to be with her that first night. Can't understand why the staff in that hospital wouldn't allow that woman's partner to be equally supportive.

lazygal

I got my notes after every pregnancy and there were differences between what happened and what was actually recorded.

SusieBlue

RoamingDoc wrote: »

Quite an unfair thing to do imo. Why not rip your TD a new one? Or the Minister for Health?
These units are insanely underfunded. It's not the fault of staff that care is substandard when there are none of them around.

Writing a letter to Simon Harris would have been of absolutely no use to an exhausted new mother recovering from a surgery with limited mobility.
What she needed was time to rest & recover and help.

What she didn't need was to be abandoned with a newborn in a state of extreme fatigue mere hours after an invasive surgery.

She asked for help and was either ignored or scolded. By the time her mother arrived, she'd been awake for almost 48hrs.
It was her first child, she'd never even held a baby before giving birth herself.

The only person who could directly help and change that situation at that moment in time, was the midwife in charge.
And in fairness, she did, and the situation improved.

Its just sad that she herself was fobbed off and left in a vulnerable situation and in a state of anxiety where anything could have happened.

Cheerilee

This is such a tragic event,cannot imagine the horror of the family and the nursing staff , could this be avoided in the future ?should no woman after delivering be left alone in a room eliminating single rooms as there is absolutely not enough staff to monitor individuals 24/7
On my second after an emergency section I was left in a room on my own with the baby , it was getting dark and i had told my husband to leave as i assumed the nursing staff would come into me, i was hooked up to the IV's and still on a trolley , I was feeding the baby myself so didnt need bottles but as the drips went empty i started to worry about getting an air bubble as there were so many wires coming out of me, the hours went on and i desperately need to vomit but because i was on a trolley and hooked up to wires i couldnt reach the panic button that was on the wall, so i had to vomit over the side of the bed , i was completely mortified and also worried that no one was going to check on me throughout the night, so i started to cough loudly as it seemed a bit excessive to start shouting, until a nurse heard me and came in, exclaiming what are you doing here? I had not been checked in 5 hours after delivery by Cesarean section I was apologizing about puking and was still in a daze from the morphine, this was 13 years ago, i feel strongly that no woman should be left alone after delivery , this utterly tragic case will hopefully not ever be an issue again , if staffing/regulations are changed ,
cheerilee

RoamingDoc

SusieBlue wrote: »

Writing a letter to Simon Harris would have been of absolutely no use to an exhausted new mother recovering from a surgery with limited mobility.
What she needed was time to rest & recover and help.

What she didn't need was to be abandoned with a newborn in a state of extreme fatigue mere hours after an invasive surgery.

She asked for help and was either ignored or scolded. By the time her mother arrived, she'd been awake for almost 48hrs.
It was her first child, she'd never even held a baby before giving birth herself.

The only person who could directly help and change that situation at that moment in time, was the midwife in charge.
And in fairness, she did, and the situation improved.

Its just sad that she herself was fobbed off and left in a vulnerable situation and in a state of anxiety where anything could have happened.

The security arrangements (appropriate or otherwise) for this have been explored earlier. Visitation policies are senior management and legal departmental decisions in a hospital. Staff that you'll actually meet will have no input into these.

But this:

SusieBlue wrote: »

She was absolutely exhausted, she had no idea what to do with a baby and she was immobile from the waist down.
She was basically abandoned and left to her own devices. She kept buzzing for help but was made feel a nuisance of because they were so busy.

is hardly the fault of the staff that are there.

I think it's a common abusive thing to do to staff because someone is frustrated and wants to yell and the staff are an easy target.

RoamingDoc

Duffryman wrote: »

Can't understand why the staff in that hospital wouldn't allow that woman's partner to be equally supportive.

You do know that staff on the actual wards in a hospital can't make or break policy decisions like that, right?

Not their fault if he had to go.

SusieBlue

RoamingDoc wrote: »

The security arrangements (appropriate or otherwise) for this have been explored earlier. Visitation policies are senior management and legal departmental decisions in a hospital. Staff that you'll actually meet will have no input into these.

But this:

is hardly the fault of the staff that are there.

I think it's a common abusive thing to do to staff because someone is frustrated and wants to yell and the staff are an easy target.

So basically your attitude seems to be to just tolerate this BS and knowingly allow yourself to be subjected to substandard levels of care?

She had asked for help, she had asked for assistance, and received neither. Short of complaining to the person in charge, what other practical options were there to change the dangerous situation?

I never said it was the fault of the staff. But the staff were the only people who could help her. Simon Harris would have been of no use.

RoamingDoc

SusieBlue wrote: »

So basically your attitude seems to be to just tolerate this BS and knowingly allow yourself to be subjected to substandard levels of care?

She had asked for help, she had asked for assistance, and received neither. Short of complaining to the person in charge, what other practical options were there to change the dangerous situation?

No, I don't accept substandard levels of care.

Complaining to the person in charge is an appropriate action.

But I don't demean or intimidate those who are not responsible for my problems.
Ripping someone a new one when they could have not done anything differently to help because of serious issues which are much higher up than them is shameful behaviour.

People should be angry when they're not taken care of. But they have no right to misdirect that anger because it's easy and they can intimidate staff to working even harder than they already are.

And that's probably what happened there. Instead of there being more staff the next night, they were told to inappropriately prioritize the care of the patient with the scary relative, to the detriment of their own well-being. Or maybe even to the detriment of the other patients who weren't going to be so short sighted and ill behaved.

Duffryman

RoamingDoc wrote: »

But this:

is hardly the fault of the staff that are there.

I think it's a common abusive thing to do to staff because someone is frustrated and wants to yell and the staff are an easy target.

I strongly suspect that you're involved in the Health Service yourself, and that you might even be a nurse or midwife? You're certainly an apologist for them.

Anyway...you're right that it's not the staff's fault that they're busy. But it IS their fault if they don't deal with people properly, and/or make them feel like a nuisance when all those people are doing is making perfectly reasonable requests.

Just because you’re busy doesn’t mean you can practically abandon somebody or make them feel like a nuisance just for seeking exactly the sort of help that anybody would seek in that situation. That's a problem with attitude, not with the numbers of people on duty.

Duffryman

RoamingDoc wrote: »

The security arrangements (appropriate or otherwise) for this have been explored earlier. Visitation policies are senior management and legal departmental decisions in a hospital. Staff that you'll actually meet will have no input into these.



You do know that staff on the actual wards in a hospital can't make or break policy decisions like that, right?

Not their fault if he had to go.

So going back to what you originally wrote on this point...what good would ripping a new one for the TD or Minister be then, either??

RoamingDoc

Duffryman wrote: »

I strongly suspect that you're involved in the Health Service yourself, and that you might even be a nurse or midwife? You're certainly an apologist for them.

Anyway...you're right that it's not the staff's fault that they're busy. But it IS their fault if they don't deal with people properly, and/or make them feel like a nuisance when all those people are doing is making perfectly reasonable requests.

Just because you’re busy doesn’t mean you can practically abandon somebody or make them feel like a nuisance just for seeking exactly the sort of help that anybody would seek in that situation. That's a problem with attitude, not with the numbers of people on duty.

Seeing as no-one could be in two places at once, I feel that while you can't practically abandon someone, that is what the mismanagement of our hospitals have forced staff to do.

Again, I'm going to have to have to blame structure rather than attitude.
It's not possible to make people feel supported and ok when you yourself are working yourself to exhaustion, unsupported yourself, and are dealing with abuse from the public over matters which you couldn't have ever been responsible for.


The use of the term 'apologist' implies some sort of wrong doing on their part. I don't agree with that.