Electric scooters on the Dart

JaimeB

High everyone.

Is it possible to get in the dart at peak hours with an electric scooter? I have read that foldable bikes are allowed, but no info about scooters which fold too, but are a bit more long than foldable bikes.

Thanks!

Victor

I would exercise discretion. Will your scooter prevent other people getting on or otherwise inconvenience people? Note that the rear of a scooter won't be visible in a crowded carriage and poses a trip hazard.

Are there folding scooters?

Birneybau

High,

Please don't

arybvtcw0eolkf

If its the scooters which can be folded and stored/held vertically I wouldn't think twice about it.

JaimeB

Yes, one of those folding scooters.

arybvtcw0eolkf

JaimeB wrote: »

Yes, one of those folding scooters.

Sure they take up no more floor space than a shopping bag, I'd take it onboard and not think twice about it.

Del2005

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

Sure they take up no more floor space than a shopping bag, I'd take it onboard and not think twice about it.

A shopping trolley isn't a vehicle which requires tax, insurance, licence and a helmet to use in a public place.

strandroad

Mind the wheels though, I saw a person get quite a bit of muck on their light coat from a fellow commuter's folded scooter, they didn't ask them for dry cleaning costs but they could have as it was quite bad. You could ruin someone's day or appointment.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Del2005 wrote: »

A shopping trolley isn't a vehicle which requires tax, insurance, licence and a helmet to use in a public place.

Neither is an electric scooter which the OP is asking about.

Victor

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

Neither is an electric scooter which the OP is asking about.

They are mechanically-propelled vehicles and do need those things.

wonski

Victor wrote: »

They are mechanically-propelled vehicles and do need those things.

How do you tax electric scooter?

Do you get the registration plates etc?

mikeecho

wonski wrote: »

How do you tax electric scooter?

The same way you tax an electric car or bike

wonski wrote: »

Do you get the registration plates etc?

Yes


You'll also need insurance... And a drivers licence.

wonski

mikeecho wrote: »

The same way you tax an electric car or bike



Yes


And ShOcK hORrOR... You'll also need insurance

All good, but I cant see it any different from any other bicycle with similar weight etc.

Risk would be similar, too.

That is if we are talking about the same thing.

I think that scooter is not 50cc equivalent, more like a toy with battery. Stand to be corrected.

Nice ninja edit there Mike

I didn't even ask about insurance

Victor

wonski wrote: »

I think that scooter is not 50cc equivalent, more like a toy with battery. Stand to be corrected.

OP is talking about an electric scooter that you stand on, not sit on (an electric motorbike), although legally, there is little difference.

wonski

Victor wrote: »

OP is talking about an electric scooter that you stand on, not sit on (an electric motorbike), although legally, there is little difference.

Can't see this thing having number plates front and back and any space for tax disc tbh.

Not to mention trying to insure it

Victor

wonski wrote: »

Can't see this thing having number plates front and back and any space for tax disc tbh.

Not to mention trying to insure it

Fair enough, but that doesn't remove the requirement to have them. If I'm correct, motorbikes aren't required to display disks, just that they need to comply with the principal requirements.

If motor insurance is difficult to come by, then there is a procedure for nominating a motor insurer to give a quote. That the quote might be very large doesn't change the obligation to have motor insurance.

Manic Moran

Victor wrote: »

Fair enough, but that doesn't remove the requirement to have them. If I'm correct, motorbikes aren't required to display disks, just that they need to comply with the principal requirements.

If motor insurance is difficult to come by, then there is a procedure for nominating a motor insurer to give a quote. That the quote might be very large doesn't change the obligation to have motor insurance.

I think your question is really more to the matter of "Is it a motor vehicle?"

I see where you're coming from, but if all you need is a motor and wheels to fall under the purview of requirements, then the Gardai would have a field day nabbing these for no tax, registration, underage, unlicensed driver, etc...



Doing a quick search for Segway tour operators in Dublin, they don't have license plates displayed either.

Victor

Dude, what time is it there?

Manic Moran wrote: »

I think your question is really more to the matter of "Is it a motor vehicle?"

Yes. http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20Segways%20or%20Powered%20Transporters.pdf

I see where you're coming from, but if all you need is a motor and wheels to fall under the purview of requirements, then the Gardai would have a field day nabbing these for no tax, registration, underage, unlicensed driver, etc...

If only the Garda would pay attention to them. Segway provided the Garda with some free vehicles.

Doing a quick search for Segway tour operators in Dublin, they don't have license plates displayed either.

Only tours I could find (several dud links) are in the Phoenix Park (private property run by OPW, not council), Waterford Greenway (Waterford council) and Lough Key Forest & Activity Park (Coillte and Roscommon County Council).

https://www.google.com/search?q=Segway+tour+operators+in+Dublin&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIE704IE704&oq=Segway+tour+operators+in+Dublin&aqs=chrome..69i57.607j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

corcaigh07

Victor, I find these annoying as well but you know fully well that nobody is taxing or insuring their electric scooters (yet) so stop playing dumb for an argument.

BeerNut

Manic Moran wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but if all you need is a motor and wheels to fall under the purview of requirements, then the Gardai would have a field day nabbing these for no tax, registration, underage, unlicensed driver, etc...

You can legally use an unregistered vehicle as much as you like when you're on the lawn next to your swimming pool. It's when that lad goes on a public road he quite rightly becomes a concern of the Gardaí.

caviardreams

I have noticed this creeping in - people storing folder scooters horizontally on the floor in the standing areas whilst their owners are sitting elsewhere down the carriage. A few days ago I was standing beside one in the carriage and when I had to move aside to let other people by I tripped over it, and the scooter itself moved a bit across the carriage. They can be quite hazardous so personally if I was bringing one on myself, I think the owner should stay beside it to keep watch for any H&S issues/hazards.

Personally, I think it is a bit much to take up a seat *and* significant standing room (two people could easily fit standing in the space they take up when horizontal) on a peak-time busy DART service but that's just my approach to etiquette and is subjective I guess.

loyatemu

whether they need tax insurance etc. has no bearing on whether the OP can carry one onto the Dart.

I'd just fold it up and bring it on, it's just luggage. I see people with them on the train, they're less bulky than a folding bike.

arybvtcw0eolkf

These scooters use a battery powered motor, just the same as hybrid bicycles.

They don't require tax, guess why?.. Because motor tax is based on the emissions of your vehicles engine (except in the case of motorbikes, which all pay the same tax of €88 per year).

The battery powered motor on these scooters emit no emissions.

Stop making things up. They don't require a helmet, licence etc etc either

L1011

There has been a motor tax rate for electric vehicles since the early 90s if not much earlier (milk floats etc were electric from the 50s)

bullpost

caviardreams wrote: »

I have noticed this creeping in - people storing folder scooters horizontally on the floor in the standing areas whilst their owners are sitting elsewhere down the carriage. A few days ago I was standing beside one in the carriage and when I had to move aside to let other people by I tripped over it, and the scooter itself moved a bit across the carriage. They can be quite hazardous so personally if I was bringing one on myself, I think the owner should stay beside it to keep watch for any H&S issues/hazards.

Personally, I think it is a bit much to take up a seat *and* significant standing room (two people could easily fit standing in the space they take up when horizontal) on a peak-time busy DART service but that's just my approach to etiquette and is subjective I guess.

Its for this reason bikes are banned during peak periods, so I think the same should apply here.

TheChizler

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

These scooters use a battery powered motor, just the same as hybrid bicycles.

They don't require tax, guess why?.. Because motor tax is based on the emissions of your vehicles engine (except in the case of motorbikes, which all pay the same tax of €88 per year).

The battery powered motor on these scooters emit no emissions.

Stop making things up. They don't require a helmet, licence etc etc either

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/electric-scooters-could-save-time-and-money-but-they-remain-illegal-1.3832654

Markcheese

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

These scooters use a battery powered motor, just the same as hybrid bicycles.

They don't require tax, guess why?.. Because motor tax is based on the emissions of your vehicles engine (except in the case of motorbikes, which all pay the same tax of €88 per year).

The battery powered motor on these scooters emit no emissions.

Stop making things up. They don't require a helmet, licence etc etc either

Electric cars pay road tax,
Some e scooters require you to scoot get going, could be classed as electrically assisted.. Maybe
Helmets would be smart.. But if its the same as a bike not compulsory...

I don't think é scooters are causing huge traffic disruption, or social chaos, they're more public transport friendly and portable than bikes, If they help keep traffic off the streets, more power to their users..
Yeah if guys use them poorly, they deserve a bollixing, but there are always some jerks..

d15ude

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

Stop making things up. They don't require a helmet, licence etc etc either

They are unregulated in Ireland atm:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729

Thor

Most Electric Scooters require you to kick off to start going. This classifies them as assisted and not propelled.

Also just to note. Tax office, insurance companies and license department all state that without a reg plate nothing requires tax or can be insured from a motor insurance company.

Three ireland Sell the Mii Scooter and do require proof that you have a license, but they have stated directly that is just to cover themselves and not because the law requires it.

Like a lot of things in Ireland, the law is very behind and doesn't directly take not of these types of devices, but currently under law as it stands. They do NOT require tax, insurance or a license, and thank god they don't. Let's hope this thread can get back on track.

Take it on the dart. It won't be a problem if it folds up.

Dial Hard

Thor wrote: »

Like a lot of things in Ireland, the law is very behind and doesn't directly take not of these types of devices, but currently under law as it stands. They do NOT require tax, insurance or a license, and thank god they don't.

According to the Irish Times article that was linked a few posts up, under Irish law they are considered "mechanically propelled vehicles" and as such require a licence, tax and insurance. But, this being Ireland, it's not actually possible to tax or insure them.

Shane Ross has asked the RSA to research how they're regulated in other countries but I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for any change to their legal status.

But, as you say, none of this discussion has any bearing on whether or not they're allowed on the DART.

Victor

Thor wrote: »

Most Electric Scooters require you to kick off to start going. This classifies them as assisted and not propelled.

That's a very nuanced view.

Del2005

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Victor, I find these annoying as well but you know fully well that nobody is taxing or insuring their electric scooters (yet) so stop playing dumb for an argument.

If you are using this point to promote their use then you must think that the people ripping about on motocross bikes are fine also, because none of them have tax/licence or insurance either so are breaking the same law which you think is fine to ignore.

Del2005

Thor wrote: »

Most Electric Scooters require you to kick off to start going. This classifies them as assisted and not propelled.

Also just to note. Tax office, insurance companies and license department all state that without a reg plate nothing requires tax or can be insured from a motor insurance company.

Three ireland Sell the Mii Scooter and do require proof that you have a license, but they have stated directly that is just to cover themselves and not because the law requires it.

Like a lot of things in Ireland, the law is very behind and doesn't directly take not of these types of devices, but currently under law as it stands. They do NOT require tax, insurance or a license, and thank god they don't. Let's hope this thread can get back on track.

Take it on the dart. It won't be a problem if it folds up.

I've never been asked to show my licence or proof of insurance when I bought my cars or bikes from dealers. The is no law requiring me to have a licence or insurance to own it. I need them to use them on the public road though, just like the e scooters and bikes.

Please provide the statute to proof that they don't require licence, tax or insurance.

loyatemu

what has any of this got to do with the OP's question - there's a very lengthy discussion on the legalities of these things on the Commuting forum.

As for bringing them onto the Dart; yes you can. Bikes are banned on peak-time services (though even this is not really enforced). These things are not bikes, you can bring them on board anytime.

Alanstrainor

loyatemu wrote: »

what has any of this got to do with the OP's question - there's a very lengthy discussion on the legalities of these things on the Commuting forum.

As for bringing them onto the Dart; yes you can. Bikes are banned on peak-time services (though even this is not really enforced). These things are not bikes, you can bring them on board anytime.

Exactly. Most use a scooter like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Xiaomi-Electric-Scooter-version-Warranty/dp/B07K811VNB/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1553526469&sr=8-3&keywords=xiaomi+scooter

They fold down, and holding it beside you as you stand shouldn't be a problem. They are reasonably compact (certainly a lot more than any bike, folding or otherwise). I wouldn't see any reason you couldn't fit one on a Dart at rush hour.

Del2005

loyatemu wrote: »

what has any of this got to do with the OP's question - there's a very lengthy discussion on the legalities of these things on the Commuting forum.

As for bringing them onto the Dart; yes you can. Bikes are banned on peak-time services (though even this is not really enforced). These things are not bikes, you can bring them on board anytime.

Can I bring my car on? Because these are classified closer to a car than a shopping trolley.

loyatemu

Del2005 wrote: »

Can I bring my car on? Because these are classified closer to a car than a shopping trolley.

how they're classified is irrelevant to whether you can bring them on the Dart.

If you have a car you can fold up and carry as hand-luggage, maybe you could try (though there may be restrictions on bringing petrol on-board, so eCar only.)

JaimeB

loyatemu wrote: »

what has any of this got to do with the OP's question - there's a very lengthy discussion on the legalities of these things on the Commuting forum.

As for bringing them onto the Dart; yes you can. Bikes are banned on peak-time services (though even this is not really enforced). These things are not bikes, you can bring them on board anytime.

Thanks, straight to the point.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Doing a quick search for Segway tour operators in Dublin, they don't have license plates displayed either.

Neither do battery powered bicycles according to Cork city's coroners court;

The inquest was told that the bike was in a roadworthy condition but was not classified as a mechanically propelled vehicle and did not require insurance.

loyatemu

Laylah Repulsive Fencer wrote: »

Neither do battery powered bicycles according to Cork city's coroners court;

Segway tours operate on private property (Phoenix Park being owned by the OPW).

Pedelec bikes are specifically exempted from vehicle licensing (as are Invalid Carriages).

Markcheese

The scooters in question are low speed,(not 30/40 kph), and need to be scooted, so are mechanically assisted. but they're not bikes,
Are they causing a problem?

John_Rambo

Del2005 wrote: »

Can I bring my car on? Because these are classified closer to a car than a shopping trolley.

Rarely uses the DART but goes on a rant when people want to bring their fold up scooters on the DART.

Go internet.

TomasMacR

Gotta love this country, completely congested by traffic in most major cities with totally inadequate public transport and something comes up to alleviate this and the answer not only by officials but a good portion of posters on this is to restrict, outlaw, tax, regulate...essentially making it difficult and expensive for people to use them.

Look at Lisbon, already a great tram, bus and rail network over and underground...electric scooters come in and what do they do? Embrace, innovate and make it accessible to everyone by operating the equivalent of a Dublin bikes system of pay as you use and has been hugely successful.

And we wonder and get thick at the fella who decided to jump ship and move the Websummit there...god knows why.

I know maybe next we should restrict and outlaw highly efficient services such as Uber and AirBnb!

John_Rambo

TomasMacR wrote: »

Gotta love this country, completely congested by traffic in most major cities with totally inadequate public transport and something comes up to alleviate this and the answer not only by officials but a good portion of posters on this is to restrict, outlaw, tax, regulate...essentially making it difficult and expensive for people to use them.

Look at Lisbon, already a great tram, bus and rail network over and underground...electric scooters come in and what do they do? Embrace, innovate and make it accessible to everyone by operating the equivalent of a Dublin bikes system of pay as you use and has been hugely successful.

And we wonder and get thick at the fella who decided to jump ship and move the Websummit there...god knows why.

I know maybe next we should restrict and outlaw highly efficient services such as Uber and AirBnb!

Little self appointed bureaucrats fashionably offended and indignantly stamping their little feet.




Over someone bringing a fold up scooter on the DART. Some of whom don't use the DART.

L1011

TomasMacR wrote: »

And we wonder and get thick at the fella who decided to jump ship and move the Websummit there...god knows why.

Money. Lisbon gave him lots and lots and lots of money.

arybvtcw0eolkf

John_Rambo wrote: »

Little self appointed bureaucrats fashionably offended and indignantly stamping their little feet.




Over someone bringing a fold up scooter on the DART. Some of whom don't use the DART.

In one word 'busybodies'

TomasMacR

L1011 wrote: »

Money. Lisbon gave him lots and lots and lots of money.

So you’re saying Lisbon gave him money to run his event in a city which has a far more efficient transport system (calling it efficient is being generous to Dublin in fairness as our transport system could be called non existent in comparison to Lisbon), it costs a fraction of what Dublin costs for daily cost of living and has readily affordable accommodation. Lastly, let’s not mention the absolute farcical venue the RDS is which isn’t fit to host anything other than a small horse riding event at best.

My question is, why wasn’t he paying Lisbon to take on the event rather than vice versa?