Nightmare Tenants

AWKYBAWK1

Hi I am really looking for a quick resolution to this. I unfortunately have rented my house on the 9th of November to a couple with two small children and within a couple of days the armed response unit were at the house as it turns out there is domestic abuse. Obviously they are not paying their share of haps and I am getting no rent with notice which I unfortunately submitted incorrectly and had to resubmit they have refused to leave and I get a call from the neighbours again tonight to call the gardai again obviously neighbours very annoyef and upset with having to listen to this.He was beating her on the street a couple of weeks ago while the buggy with children in it rolled down the street. If anyone has any suggestions please reply

my3cents

Mod Edit

Please keep these type of comments for after hours.

dartboardio

This is why references exist.

You've learned your lesson I'd say.

overkill602

u let 2 a couple with kids and on HAP ard 2 believe

handlemaster

You did the right thing taking up the couple and kids where the public service wouldnt. HAP e for you ...... seriously stress full this situation is , go through the process to the letter of the law. It will cost you money but I fera its the only way. Landlords are millionaire s so you will be alright !!

handlemaster

handlemaster wrote: »

You did the right thing taking up the couple and kids where the public service wouldnt. HAP e for you ...... seriously stress full this situation is , go through the process to the letter of the law. It will cost you money but I fera its the only way. Landlords are millionaire s so you will be alright !!

P.S. welfare tenants dont have money and when they get it... rent might not be the number one priority. .. sad

lawred2

Is this lad just free to repeatedly batter his missus? How many times do the ARU need to be called?

GGTrek

OP unfortunately many other posters in this thread just weren't helpful to you. Yes you have been a fool and now you will seriously suffer.
First thing you should do is to ask your neighbour and the garda if they are willing to be your witnesses at an RTB hearing.
Second you need to tell what kind of lease you gave to the tenants: does it have a fixed term? If yes for how long?
Once you have answered these two questions you can receive proper advice.
You have many options, but some options are more efficient than others and depend on the answers to the questions above.
In any case please immediately serve the tenants personally with witness at your side countersigning the following 14 days warning notice for rent arrears: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/Sample_Notice_of_Termination_-_rent-arrears-not_(Nov_2017).docx

handlemaster

lawred2 wrote: »

Is this lad just free to repeatedly batter his missus? How many times do the ARU need to be called?

More than likely she " loves "him and normally is very good and she refuses to press charges

Graham

Mod Note

guys, posts are getting progressively less relevant and/or helpful. Please stop.

sunnysoutheast

I think my only practical advice would be to get a solicitor to ensure everything is done 100% by the book.

If the cops are involved you ***might*** find that they just up and leave one day and disappear. Hopefully. Likely to wreck the house even then though.

Quandary

If they are there since November 9th then it's still less than 6 months so they can be asked to leave without a reason. Is this still not the case? Or are my maths embarrassingly incorrect...

TheChizler

Quandary wrote: »

If they are there since November 9th then it's still less than 6 months so they can be asked to leave without a reason. Is this still not the case? Or are my maths embarrassingly incorrect...

Unless a lease prevents that. If they've ignored the 14 day notice theres a procedure to follow, best get a solicitor involved to write up the next stages properly OP. You don't want to mess up the next notice and have to start from scratch.

AWKYBAWK1

Yes there is mo doubt I have been extremely foolish and I know its going to cost me dearly. I also know that they are going to completely wreck the house and I have reconciled myself to all that it is the infliction on the neighbours that is so thoroughly awful they have to witness and listen to all this stuff and my carelessness has caused this.

AWKYBAWK1

Hi to respond on a practical level .

They have no lease so no fixed term etc
One ex neighbour will give a statement but is it necessary for them to go to the hearing

The gardai will verify all but would they have to attend the hearing

I have given 28 day notice based on them not being in the property for 6 months as overholding seems to be what the RTB take more seriously.

AWKYBAWK1

handlemaster wrote: »

More than likely she " loves "him and normally is very good and she refuses to press charges

It seems he can repeatedly do whatever he wants to her and nothing happens. The only thing that has happened is Tusla are now involved because of the children's safety

AWKYBAWK1

Quandary wrote: »

If they are there since November 9th then it's still less than 6 months so they can be asked to leave without a reason. Is this still not the case? Or are my maths embarrassingly incorrect...

Your maths are correct and yes they can but they are refusing

Quandary

AWKYBAWK1 wrote: »

Your maths are correct and yes they can but they are refusing

Best of luck, and as others have said, follow the correct procedures to th letter of the law and hopefully these troublemakers will be gone as soon as possibe.

Samuel T. Cogley

Back up any rent arrears notice with a notice for anti-social behaviour. Get an experienced solicitor involved ASAP.

GGTrek

AWKYBAWK1 wrote: »

Hi to respond on a practical level .

They have no lease so no fixed term etc
One ex neighbour will give a statement but is it necessary for them to go to the hearing

The gardai will verify all but would they have to attend the hearing

I have given 28 day notice based on them not being in the property for 6 months as overholding seems to be what the RTB take more seriously.

You did the right thing to serve the 28 days no reason termination notice since they have no fixed term and no part 4 rights. Now if at least the Garda or the neighbours can be present as witnesses at the RTB hearing and both can provide you a statement (better if sworn at a commissioner of oaths) about the criminal behaviour of your tenant then such behaviour is serious enough to shorten by three weeks the time it takes to raise an RTB dispute. You could serve your criminal tenant a termination notice for serious antisocial behaviour which just gives him 7 days to get out without any previous warning, please read well this: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Disputes/Sample%20Notice%20of%20Termination%20-%207%20day%20Notice%20-%20Anti-Social%20Behaviour.docx

You should also serve the 14 days warning notice about rent arrears if you plan to chase the money in the future and it will help your case at the RTB. You can then follow up with a 28 days termination notice for rent arrears in 14 days. If you can you should also request an inspection of the property to take photos with a witness, if refused provide another 14 days warning notice for breach of tenant obligations and then in 14 days a termination notice for refusal of inspection.

All these termination notices are useful to build a massive case at the RTB and show to the adjudicator the nightmare profile of your tenant and chase three objectives at the same time: (a) quick as possible eviction (b) rent arrears (c) money for damages. Very possible that you will only achieve the first one after a few months.

The 7 days termination notice is required in order for you to open the RTB dispute in just 6 days and having the tenant receive a call from the RTB in around 7-9 days due to overholding. You then continue to serve all the notices I told you above while you are waiting for the hearing (3-4 weeks after RTB phone call). 10-7 days before the hearing you post in the RTB portal (where you can raise the dispute online by paying 15 eur) a really long submission with all the warning notices, all the termination notices, all the witnesses' statements and a brief description of the facts and the RTA 2004-2016 sections that were broken by the tenant. Finally requesting a determination order for the tenant to vacate within 7 days of the order being issued + compensation from rent arrears and damages to be fully granted and withold the full deposit to partially cover this compensation.

After determination order is issued and not appealed within 14 days. You can either go to the District Court for enforcement or find better avenues to kick out the criminal.

Of course if you are unsure about how to perform all of the above correctly then you should hire an experienced tenancy law solicitor. Good luck you will need a lot of it.

GGTrek

Quandary wrote: »

If they are there since November 9th then it's still less than 6 months so they can be asked to leave without a reason. Is this still not the case? Or are my maths embarrassingly incorrect...

This is only correct if there is no fixed term in the tenancy agreement.

JJJackal

AWKYBAWK1 wrote: »

Hi I am really looking for a quick resolution to this. I unfortunately have rented my house on the 9th of November to a couple with two small children and within a couple of days the armed response unit were at the house as it turns out there is domestic abuse. Obviously they are not paying their share of haps and I am getting no rent with notice which I unfortunately submitted incorrectly and had to resubmit they have refused to leave and I get a call from the neighbours again tonight to call the gardai again obviously neighbours very annoyef and upset with having to listen to this.He was beating her on the street a couple of weeks ago while the buggy with children in it rolled down the street. If anyone has any suggestions please reply

Why did u not evict pre Xmas when armed response was called?

4ensic15

JJJackal wrote: »

Why did u not evict pre Xmas when armed response was called?

He has to give notice. He can't just evict.

AWKYBAWK1

Hi GG trek I have to say a big thankyou to you for taking the time to put all this into writing. It is very kind of you and very useful information.

Just a couple of things:

I had already submitted the 7 day notice for antisocial behaviour and on the 8 th myself and a gard went to the house and she refused to give me access but gave the gard access and said they weren't leaving. I was subsequently given to believe that the burden of proof for anti social behaviour was so high that I probably wouldn't be able to prove it and that is when I then sent in a 28 day notice. It sounds to me like I should put in the dispute today based on anti social behaviour let the 28 day stand and then put in all other notices while waiting for case.

The other question I have is after the PRTB have given their verdict and the tenants still won't leave you seem to be saying that there are other ways to get this done quicker what are these ways?

AWKYBAWK1

Hi GG trek one last thing do you know any good lawyers with knowledge in this area my solicitor does not seem to know ins and outs

Gmaximum

OP, I had an issue with anti social behavior from HAP tenants in an an apartment block with police involvement, neighbor complaints etc

I went all the way to a hearing with the RTB and it only went in my favor as one of the parties admitted that there was anti social behavior. This was despite having written complaints from the OMC and a timeline including texts from neighbours.

To be fair the adjudicator could see I was in the right and to me his questioning of the tenants was supportive of my case. I spoke to him afterwards and he did say that eviction for anti social behavior is tricky and you really need direct evidence - either CCTV or witnesses who will attend the hearing. My case involved drug dealing and assault so there was no way a neighbour was willing to show up

Personally I’d move for eviction on rent arrears and it’s easier to prove. As other posters have said make sure your notices are in order. I personally don’t see the value in using a solicitor just to issue notices once you use the RTB templates and your dates are correct. Your already out of pocket as it is

4ensic15

Gmaximum wrote: »

I personally don’t see the value in using a solicitor just to issue notices once you use the RTB templates and your dates are correct. Your already out of pocket as it is

I know solicitors who get a barrister to draft notices on properties they own themselves. A mistake is more costly than a lawyers fee. As for getting tenants out, there is a barrister who has a very good record in getting tenants out after the RTB determination. Dealing with the appeals and the sheriff can be a very long drawn out process.

GGTrek

AWKYBAWK1 wrote: »

Hi GG trek I have to say a big thankyou to you for taking the time to put all this into writing. It is very kind of you and very useful information.

Just a couple of things:

I had already submitted the 7 day notice for antisocial behaviour and on the 8 th myself and a gard went to the house and she refused to give me access but gave the gard access and said they weren't leaving. I was subsequently given to believe that the burden of proof for anti social behaviour was so high that I probably wouldn't be able to prove it and that is when I then sent in a 28 day notice. It sounds to me like I should put in the dispute today based on anti social behaviour let the 28 day stand and then put in all other notices while waiting for case.

The other question I have is after the PRTB have given their verdict and the tenants still won't leave you seem to be saying that there are other ways to get this done quicker what are these ways?

Only raise RTB dispute now if either your neighbour or the garda (or better both) are willing to come as witnesses to the hearing. If both are willing to give you asap a sworn statement of facts you can still raise the dispute. If they chicken out, as most do when they have to put their neck out, then serve all the warnings and notices I told you and wait for the 28 days. You have to understand that by the time of the hearing all the termination notices will be served and the 28 days no part 4 notice will have expired already. If you manage to prove anti social behaviour, the adjudicator will give the criminal just 7 days to leave, otherwise with the other notices he/she will probably give another 28-42 days to leave.

Most important: have you served the notices in the correct format, in person and with a witness countersigning willing to come to the RTB hearing? DO you have any photographic evidence of service of the notices? Like gluing it at the front door and taking photos?

I have had two inherited anti social tenants (long gone) but your level is much worse, but on the other side your tenant is also very stupid because he stopped paying rent and he performed his antics in the first 6 months. Neighbours complain but when you ask for help to solve the problem they say they do not want hassle! If your neighbour is of this kind then don't stress out too much for him/her: just another coward hypocrite (plenty in life).

For all the other info you are asking, please PM me.

AWKYBAWK1

Gmaximum wrote: »

OP, I had an issue with anti social behavior from HAP tenants in an an apartment block with police involvement, neighbor complaints etc

I went all the way to a hearing with the RTB and it only went in my favor as one of the parties admitted that there was anti social behavior. This was despite having written complaints from the OMC and a timeline including texts from neighbours.

To be fair the adjudicator could see I was in the right and to me his questioning of the tenants was supportive of my case. I spoke to him afterwards and he did say that eviction for anti social behavior is tricky and you really need direct evidence - either CCTV or witnesses who will attend the hearing. My case involved drug dealing and assault so there was no way a neighbour was willing to show up

Personally I’d move for eviction on rent arrears and it’s easier to prove. As other posters have said make sure your notices are in order. I personally don’t see the value in using a solicitor just to issue notices once you use the RTB templates and your dates are correct. Your already out of pocket as it is

Hi I really appreciate your input . Can I not go for all with PRTB as in anti social rent arrears overholding and breaking of tenant obligations once I have submitted notice on all. How long did the process take from start to finish. I just found out my pair have a previous judgement agsinst them on PRTB website for all of the above

beauf

How long did it take the last time on the ptrb records

Gmaximum

4ensic15 wrote: »

I know solicitors who get a barrister to draft notices on properties they own themselves. A mistake is more costly than a lawyers fee. As for getting tenants out, there is a barrister who has a very good record in getting tenants out after the RTB determination. Dealing with the appeals and the sheriff can be a very long drawn out process.

Absolutely engage with them down the line for hearings appeals etc, the guidance is pretty clear for beach of obligations around non payment of rent and the sample notices are freely a available