Discovery 2x10 'The Red Angel' [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

TheValeyard

That time again folks

I've no idea what this episode could be about. Episode title is very cryptic.

Jmccoy1

I bet it’s Burnham, why all those transporter yokes around her ?

Spear

Well played on the bait and switch on the angel's identity by playing to the "obvious" answer that I, for one, fell for.

I did like the snarky exchanges between Burnham and Spock.

fritzelly

Well, well, well - don't think anyone saw that coming

maybe spoiler that Spear

Spear

fritzelly wrote: »

Well, well, well - don't think anyone saw that coming

maybe spoiler that Spear

I've spoilered it as there's no warning in the thread title, so just in case.

TheValeyard

Well.....a lot of information was given in that episode!!

Antar Bolaeisk

Jmccoy1 wrote: »

I bet it’s Burnham, why all those transporter yokes around her ?

I am rage quitting this show if it's Burnham but it does look to be heading in that direction... (and then, like an addict, I'll be back for more next week anyway :pac:). If it is Burnham though there's a major temporal bootstrap paradox to resolve.

I was hoping they were going to leave the origin and motive of the red angel unresolved, it did seem like they were hinting towards that at the beginning with their rather unsubtle scene discussing Clarke's Law.

liamtech

Average Discovery Episode - SPOILERS!!!

Good Parts:

-S31 designed the Red angel -

-Attack that killed Burnhams Parents now has purpose!

-Spock Was Excellent i thought

-Leiland was also descent

We can assume as per last week that the red angel is traveling through time to prevent the rise of Skynet.. Hal9000... Control - cool:D - to be honest i kinda like the plot for season 2 although its pace is SO SO uneven

Bad Parts

-MICHAEL is the center of the known universe, and is responsible for everything that has happened, and will happen for 1000+ years

- Her mother is the red angel and presumably gives her the suit making Michael the red angel - and explaining why they think its her - it is her, just not at the moment


Again i really hope writers are paying attention to fan reaction to Burnham - and maybe realizing that she is far too central to everything - last thing we need is her mentoring Kirk next season or something mental like that

Johnny Storm

liamtech wrote: »

Average Discovery Episode - SPOILERS!!!

.... - last thing we need is her mentoring doing the nasty thing with Kirk next season or something mental like that

I made your statement more logically consistent with what we know of Star Fleet's finest .....

Johnny Storm

liamtech wrote: »

Average Discovery Episode - SPOILERS!!!

-Spock Was Excellent i thought

-Leiland was also descent

I fully agree with the above.
The reveal at the very end was a genuine surprise to me...
I suppose Leiland is now er.. "controlled" by Control until further notice?

Evade

At least it wasn't Michael, or at least it's not exclusively Michael. I'm not sure that Michael being so singularly special that she can't die is really any better though.

Who thought time crystal was fine as a name? Did some writer write [Time Crystal] and forget to find and replace before submitting the script?

More tidying up of the season 1 anachronisms by having the woman who used to play Airiam take over Airiam's station as a different character.

Georgiou, or anyone else really, need to tell Tilly to shut up at least once an episode.

Culber's my scans would detect if this was fake bit doesn't really inspire confidence after all those times he scanned Ash and didn't realise he was a Klnigon.

Sad Professor

Evade wrote: »

More tidying up of the season 1 anachronisms by having the woman who used to play Airiam take over Airiam's station as a different character.

I laughed at that moment.

It's nice that the kept the original actress. They certainly seem to have gone to a lot of effort to do so. Maybe there was issues with the make-up that wasn't her fault or she's related to one of the producers.

Evade

Sad Professor wrote: »

or she's related to one of the producers.

The new Vorik/Taurik.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

Who thought time crystal was fine as a name? Did some writer write [Time Crystal] and forget to find and replace before submitting the script?

Or just took the name from the real thing, since they're real things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal

More tidying up of the season 1 anachronisms by having the woman who used to play Airiam take over Airiam's station as a different character.

Sara Mitich apparently had allergic reactions to the makeup, hence she was recast, but they still honoured her contract and gave her a new character.

Rawr

I found this one to kind of drag out, and although the end was pretty exciting, the way there was filled with scenes with Ash, which I'm no fan of...

The Funeral: I kept thinking back to Spock's funeral in ST:II. Even the end of the scene was similar. I felt that they dragged that scene out to the point where most of the impact was lost. It should have just been one or two speeches and then a send-off with Saru's song. Adding all of the other speeches just bloated the scene and made it drag on...


Michael's talk with Leiland: This came across as very silly.

Leiland: I'm sorry, but your parents were in S31 and it's my fault that they died on the job....

Michael: What are you saying?

Leiland: That....your parents died...because S31....and it was my bad. I'm sorry.

Michael: I...don't....what are you saying?!

Leiland: Your folks! Section 31 Agents!!! They died!! My bad!!!

Micheal: Wait a minute....I think I figured this out....my parents were in Section 31 weren't they?

Leiland: I just said that now and-

Micheal: It was YOUR FAULT too! Wasn't it?!

Leiland: Were you even listening...yes!! I just said that....

Micheal: PUNCH!

Evade

Spear wrote: »

Or just took the name from the real thing, since they're real things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal

If they took the name from a real thing that can be created on Earth why go to another planet to find one?

Spear

Evade wrote: »

If they took the name from a real thing that can be created on Earth why go to another planet to find one?

Because that wouldn't lead to Klingons and a dramatic reveal.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

Because that wouldn't lead to Klingons and a dramatic reveal.

It's aliens invading Earth for water then?

corkie

Spear wrote: »

Well played on the bait and switch on the angel's identity by playing to the "obvious" answer that I, for one, fell for.

I did like the snarky exchanges between Burnham and Spock.

When they started saying it was Micheal, in the early scenes, I was wondering how they where going to resolve that. Possibly alternative timelines (or another parallel world). Because there was no way for here to be able to save herself.

Also kind of annoyed that it was going to be her. So kind of glad that there maybe more than one person in the suit.

OldMrBrennan83

I need to watch back as I seem to have missed what happened with Leiland. I seen what happened to him but I'm not sure where he was, what he was doing, or why he was there.

liamtech

Rawr wrote: »

I found this one to kind of drag out, and although the end was pretty exciting, the way there was filled with scenes with Ash, which I'm no fan of...

The Funeral: I kept thinking back to Spock's funeral in ST:II. Even the end of the scene was similar. I felt that they dragged that scene out to the point where most of the impact was lost. It should have just been one or two speeches and then a send-off with Saru's song. Adding all of the other speeches just bloated the scene and made it drag on...


Michael's talk with Leiland: This came across as very silly.

Leiland: I'm sorry, but your parents were in S31 and it's my fault that they died on the job....

Michael: What are you saying?

Leiland: That....your parents died...because S31....and it was my bad. I'm sorry.

Michael: I...don't....what are you saying?!

Leiland: Your folks! Section 31 Agents!!! They died!! My bad!!!

Micheal: Wait a minute....I think I figured this out....my parents were in Section 31 weren't they?

Leiland: I just said that now and-

Micheal: It was YOUR FAULT too! Wasn't it?!

Leiland: Were you even listening...yes!! I just said that....

Micheal: PUNCH!

LMAO!!!!!:D:pac::pac:

TheValeyard

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I need to watch back as I seem to have missed what happened with Leiland. I seen what happened to him but I'm not sure where he was, what he was doing, or why he was there.

AI needled him in the eye. Maybe nanoprobes to control him like a Borg drone.

Spear

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

AI needled him in the eye. Maybe nanoprobes to control him like a Borg drone.

Something went in, you can see something dissipating or spreading in the eye afterwards. I had previously assumed the future big baddy was an evolved Control, but this makes it seem more like the Borg are.

fritzelly

Spear wrote: »

Something went in, you can see something dissipating or spreading in the eye afterwards. I had previously assumed the future big baddy was an evolved Control, but this makes it seem more like the Borg are.

I would be alright with Control being the birth of the borg

I assumed it killed him and then gave the command to close the wormhole (using his voice) once it had fully transferred over to the S31 ship...

uncleoswald

fritzelly wrote: »

Well, well, well - don't think anyone saw that coming

Cough cough - from the previous episode's thread...

uncleoswald wrote: »

Could be two Red Angels, one for each of Burham's parents. Would explain why one seemed female and the other didn't. Also Michael didn't actually see them die and Section 31 seem to be involved in their death in some way so there is more to be resolved there. It would be dumb but then I fully expect a dumb conclusion to the mystery anyway.

As the episode went on I became more and more convinced that it would be her mother or both her parents. Kurtzman is too much of a hack to not rely on parent issues as a source of drama. And it gave Michael Burnham yet another opportunity to make that one teary face she makes.

But how come the neural scan (or whatever) said it was 100% a match for Burnham? Was the test simply not sophisticated enough to distinguish between mother and daughter? If it does make medical sense then how come they were so convinced that it was Burnham and not some future descendent of her's?

Why did Michael feel she had the "right" to know more and why does everyone bend over to appease her? Surely if they thought they were trying to capture future Michael they should have kept her out of the operation all together, the less she knows the better.



Please don't be the Borg. Please don't be the Borg. Please don't be the Borg. Please don't be the Borg. Please don't be the Borg.

pixelburp

Culber mistaking the signature for Burnham felt sloppy, but honestly I found the idea of Klingons researching time travel more unconvincing.

That we never actually see any other caste in its society doesn't help, but they never strike as anything except as a brute force kind of species.

fritzelly

Maybe Michael takes on the suit to finish what her mother started, getting all timey wimey we still don't know it was the mother in all the appearances...

liamtech

pixelburp wrote: »

Culber mistaking the signature for Burnham felt sloppy, but honestly I found the idea of Klingons researching time travel more unconvincing.

That we never actually see any other caste in its society doesn't help, but they never strike as anything except as a brute force kind of species.

i reckon michael grabs the suit now and begins using it

Slydice

I liked that episode. Spock done really well again.

Liked the twist at the end. Almost to the last second I didn't get it.

seamus

fritzelly wrote: »

Maybe Michael takes on the suit to finish what her mother started, getting all timey wimey we still don't know it was the mother in all the appearances...

This is definitely it. There's no reason to assume it's always the same person in the suit.

In any case it would seem to make sense that her mother would know about the trap and go back herself rather than send Michael.

Why would her mother choose Spock to reveal the visions to? She wouldn't. It seems likely that when the angel appears to save Burnham, it was the mother. When it doesn't appear, it is Burnham. Thus resolving the grandfather paradox.

corkie

Okay I didn't post this speculative theory from some youtube before.

But it was raised that there may have been reverse engineered borg tech from the movie 'First Contact' and possibility of borg nano bots infecting 'Control'. <<< (hence why advance tech, compared to TOS etc).

Wild theories from before this episode.

But with Leiland been infected sound possibility now.

Edit: - We also know that Time war from 'Enterprise' also had an effect on S31!

Edit 2: - Referred to as Nanoprobe, not bots, but same principle.

uncleoswald

pixelburp wrote: »

Culber mistaking the signature for Burnham felt sloppy, but honestly I found the idea of Klingons researching time travel more unconvincing.

That we never actually see any other caste in its society doesn't help, but they never strike as anything except as a brute force kind of species.

Yes this has always been a problem with the Klingons. Seems like a missed opportunity with Discovery, why bother to do a big redesign on them and their society but make them less nuanced.

AMKC

I liked that episode. I liked the scene at the beginning. It was nice to see Airium get a send off. For a little while I was thinking maybe she is the red angel. Actually when this episode started and I seen Airium I thought oh they are going to bring her back to life but then the funeral started (:

It was nice but strange then seeing the same actress come unto the bridge as a different character. .

I do not like Leland but think he makes a good bad guy.

I do not mind Tilly or Micheal that much. I do not like Ash at all do.

I thought that was a great twist at the end. Had kind of thought for a split second that it was Georgia first lol but was also thinking maybe its one of her parents and her mum made most sense as she must have used to suit to survive when the world she was on got destroyed by the supernova.

expectationlost

why is the resurrected doctor walking around in sharp black shirt and jacket, ok so it contrasts to his previous ultra white uniform, so maybe its to signify he is still grieving for his previous life or he is evil, but is he still a crew doctor or not? scanning michael and going on missions but walking around the ship out of uniform...

fritzelly

Don't think he is back in service yet, remember something about someone saying we know you're not working but your the best doctor...

Dave0301

Painful enough episode to watch.

The opening scene of everyone saying their farewells to Arium was very meh, and the singing...ugh.

Tilly's continued interruption of her superiors on a regular basis with aha moments is getting tedious.

Burnham's acting in general. Her look of confusion when she is meant to be upset is annoying. Again during her scene with Spock...I am beginning to think she is just a poor actor.

Stamens and Culver scene and the forced introduction of gender identity...good thing Admiral Agony Aunt was on board.

Not sure what to make of the last few minutes. Section 31 ship looks like it is under the influence of AI and will the worm hole be able to reopen?

fritzelly

Why not take the negativity elsewhere along with blazer and let people discuss the episode in peace. You've hated the series from the start but keep watching and bitching about it, faux love star trek

Antar Bolaeisk

corkie wrote: »

Okay I didn't post this speculative theory from some youtube before.

But it was raised that there may have been reverse engineered borg tech from the movie 'First Contact' and possibility of borg nano bots infecting 'Control'. <<< (hence why advance tech, compared to TOS etc).

Wild theories from before this episode.

But with Leiland been infected sound possibility now.

Edit: - We also know that Time war from 'Enterprise' also had an effect on S31!

Edit 2: - Referred to as Nanoprobe, not bots, but same principle.

I assumed it was just control imitating Leyland much like it did with the Vulcan in the previous episode rather than some form of proto-assimilation.

It does seem like a bit of a design flaw to have a huge spike in your retinal scanner.

TheValeyard

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

It does seem like a bit of a design flaw to have a huge spike in your retinal scanner.

Probably the same guy who built consoles to explode during battle.

liamtech

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Probably the same guy who built consoles to explode during battle.

Its from the 'We dont care about Employee Safety' school of design

LeinsterDub

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

It does seem like a bit of a design flaw to have a huge spike in your retinal scanner.

It's a section 31 ship, unauthorized use will be punished. Seems fairly in character for them. We've seen with the augmented that it's unlikely he's blinded for life

Optimus Prime

This was the worst ep so far for me. Just so much bad in it ? Retinal scanner with spikes ? Elaborate setup to kill her , they could have just had Spock hold a pillow over her face.

The terrible scene of the dude telling her about her parents.

Also could that still be burnham but an older one ? And she just LOOKs like her mother when she is older hence the reaction.

pixelburp

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Probably the same guy who built consoles to explode during battle.

Kind of a "hand rails on the death Star" kind of moment.

I mean, if this is the Borg, or just evil AI, it could be argued it had the prowess to manipulate and change technology to create a eye poker on demand.

Presumably it all means Leland has become the Manchurian Captain, which like Lorca last year, kinda robs the character of that moral ambiguity and deviousness that made him interesting. The chat with Burnham was overlong and the usual 'tell not show's problem with Discovery, but it added an intriguing layer to the Section 31 cap.

Dave0301

fritzelly wrote: »

Why not take the negativity elsewhere along with blazer and let people discuss the episode in peace. You've hated the series from the start but keep watching and bitching about it, faux love star trek

With all due respect, that is an over reaction from you. I have not been in here posting negatively after every episode, far from in in fact.

I watch Discovery because I am a trek fan, and it is not the most enjoyable for me, but there are still aspects that I enjoy.

Pointing out some negatives in what I thought was a weaker episode doesn't merit the response you have given.

Franz Von Peppercorn

It was a pretty good episode of science fiction by any standards. Applying criteria like Burnham is not the best actress would, if applied to all previous star treks, invalidate all of them. Jerri Ryan was never going to win an Oscar. Nor William shatner. None of them.

At this stage if you don’t like the show then maybe modern Trek is not for you?

Dave0301

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It was a pretty good episode of science fiction by any standards. Applying criteria like Burnham is not the best actress would, if applied to all previous star treks, invalidate all of them. Jerri Ryan was never going to win an Oscar. Nor William shatner. None of them.

At this stage if you don’t like the show then maybe modern Trek is not for you?

There are some parts of the show I enjoy quite a lot, including some of the acting. I don't think commenting on the acting of one of the main protagonists is an issue. Particularly when people praise Patrick Stewart for what he brought to the genre.

I enjoy following the story and seeing how it ties in with the Trek universe, because at the end of the day it is still Star Trek and I am happy that it is being made.

I just find it irksome that any commentary on the show that isn't glowing is immediately shot down by some.

Are we only allowed to discuss things that are agreeable to some posters?

GSPfan

If the show writers continue to make every single thing about Michael Burnham then it’s no surprise that she gets criticism. Maybe if they allowed her to become part of an ensemble cast then it wouldn’t be as bad but right now we are watching Star Trek Burnham and it’s not as enjoyable as some of us wish it was.

LeinsterDub

GSPfan wrote: »

If the show writers continue to make every single thing about Michael Burnham then it’s no surprise that she gets criticism. Maybe if they allowed her to become part of an ensemble cast then it wouldn’t be as bad but right now we are watching Star Trek Burnham and it’s not as enjoyable as some of us wish it was.

The entire point of the thing is about Micheal if you don't like that perhaps you should stop watching

GSPfan

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The entire point of the thing is about Micheal if you don't like that perhaps you should stop watching

Is it though? Is the entire point of the thing about Michael? If it is then I will stop watching. I bet the show doesn’t get past the 3rd season if it’s another Michael Burnham story arc in season 3.

For now I’m watching in the hope they realise it will bury the show if they keep going that route. It’s got so many great things going for it but Burnham is not one of them.

I assumed leland was dead and another control holo was doing his voice. I also missed what he was doing in there in the first place.

Seemed pointless doing Michael's death that way - as someone said, have spock hold a pillow over her face, or a mask with gas or something less painful.

Suspect georgiou was winding up the lads to get them to talk again. Stamets is great. Pity he's not the angel

Tilly was a bit much bursting into the meeting and waffling, as much as i like her.

Good ep though. Did not expect that at all. Fair play to the poster who called it!!

fritzelly

GSPfan wrote: »

Is it though? Is the entire point of the thing about Michael? If it is then I will stop watching. I bet the show doesn’t get past the 3rd season if it’s another Michael Burnham story arc in season 3.

For now I’m watching in the hope they realise it will bury the show if they keep going that route. It’s got so many great things going for it but Burnham is not one of them.

And yet renewed a month ago for season 3 and a massive hit for CBS