Proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes

Beta Ray Bill

Read this today:

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre support proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes

The CEO of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre Noeline Blackwell is supporting a recommendation that all third-level colleges should be obliged to provide classes on sexual consent for students or risk losing State funding.

The report follows rising concerns over the level of rape and sexual assault on college campuses.

Ms Blackwell told RTE radio’s Today with Sean O’Rourke show that, apart from UCC, any initiatives that have taken place to date have been organised by students rather than college authorities.

“It must be part of a broader understanding to colleges that such behaviour is not acceptable.

“Credit to the students who recognised this need, but they can only do so much, they need the support of the college.

“They cannot put in place codes of conduct or stipulations, only the colleges can do that.”

Ms Blackwell said that at present if something happens there isn’t any official recognition of “the need to deal with it”. Students have the option to go to Gardaí as there is no system in place within the colleges to ensure that those who carry out such actions are stopped.

Few colleges have a system for reporting such incidents, she added, or for having such a report dealt with.

The recommendation in the Government-commissioned report is an important initiative, said Ms Blackwell. That is why the Government, the National Women’s Council and the Rape Crisis Centre want to find a way to get the colleges to “act in concert.”

However, she said it appeared that none of the colleges want to admit they have a problem as “they fear fingers will be pointed.”

A recent survey by the USI had found that eight per cent of students had experienced rape or attempted rape, which underlined the need to make college campuses a safer place, she said.

The issue has to be prioritised. “Colleges need to put something in place to ensure their campuses are safe.

This p*sses me off a lot!

Consent is something people should know about well before they've reached college.
It's a very simple set rules:
You do not force yourself on anyone.
You don't wait until someone has had a few drinks to take advantage of them.
You don't say inappropriate things of a sexual nature to someone that doesn't want to hear it from you.

This is sh*t that should be thought (Drilled into teenagers) at home from young age.

Is this the SJWS over reacting or is the Problem that bad that we actually need this. (Which is sh*t if it is)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

grahambo wrote: »

Read this today:

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre support proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes



This p*sses me off a lot!

Consent is something people should know about well before they've reached college.
It's a very simple set rules:
You do not force yourself on anyone.
You don't wait until someone has had a few drinks to take advantage of them.
You don't say inappropriate things of a sexual nature to someone that doesn't want to hear it from you.

This is sh*t that should be thought (Drilled into teenagers) at home from young age.

Is this the SJWS over reacting or is the Problem that bad that we actually need this. (Which is sh*t if it is)

The problem is that while they should learn at an early age, they don't. People were against the idea of consent awareness in sex education classes in secondary school a while back in a different thread. And that's before we get to the infamous Ordning/Jackson thread....

That said, I've no problem with them providing the consent classes, as long it wasn't mandatory to actually attend one.

TheChizler

I've read feedback from college classes on bystander intervention training, which touches on consent. The number of people (male and female) who didn't know it was wrong to have sex with someone who was passed out drunk after going to bed together was staggering. We're talking 3 or 4 per group of 30.

It's another case of the idiot few ruining it for everyone else. Unfortunate but it's very necessary IMO.

Mitch Connor

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem is that while they should learn at an early age, they don't. People were against the idea of consent awareness in sex education classes in secondary school a while back in a different thread.

That said, I've no problem with them providing the consent classes, as long it wasn't mandatory to actually attend one.

While I agree, I would think the people needing the class the most are the least likely to attend. If you are minded to attend a consent class, I doubt you need it.

THough I guess it also depends on what avenue you are looking at. If it is with regards to people forcing themselves on another, those that would will likely not be attending. If you are talking to people about their ability to say 'No', to change their mind having said yes, to change their mind for any reason - to empower a choice that some people don't feel they have or can't exercise, then it will probably be a better aimed class.

BENDYBINN

Murder is another thing people should be taught is wrong

Beta Ray Bill

TheChizler wrote: »

It's another case of the idiot few ruining it for everyone else.

I get what you're saying, but the key point is the above.
Thick people are thick!
And that's the end of it, no amount of training/educating them will help if they're thick.

Same applies in the above if you replace the word "Thick" with "Predator"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TheChizler wrote: »

I've read feedback from college classes on bystander intervention training, which touches on consent. The number of people (male and female) who didn't know it was wrong to have sex with someone who was passed out drunk after going to bed together was staggering. We're talking 3 or 4 per group of 30.

It's another case of the idiot few ruining it for everyone else. Unfortunate but it's very necessary IMO.

Therein lies the other problem: the people who need it most are the people who are ones who are likely to think of it as unnecessary SJW bull****.

And this is coming from someone who detests SJW woke-iness as much as most people.

Mrs OBumble

College is too late, and it misses out the ones who don't get to third level at all.

Consent should be one of the few classes that everyone has to pass before leaving secondary. It's something that anyone can learn the theory of, no matter how thick they are. Applying the theory is a whole 'nother challenge - but they shouldat least know that rape is wrong.

KikiLaRue

If you're angrier about the idea of consent classes than you are at the rise in sexual assaults, may I respectfully suggest you've got your priorities wrong.

Beta Ray Bill

KikiLaRue wrote: »

If you're angrier about the idea of consent classes than you are at the rise in sexual assaults, may I respectfully suggest you've got your priorities wrong.

I'm angry that we're in a situation where we might need them.

How can people that are in their late teens/early twenties not know what consent is?

TheChizler

grahambo wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but the key point is the above.
Thick people are thick!
And that's the end of it, no amount of training/educating them will help if they're thick.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Therein lies the other problem: the people who need it most are the people who are ones who are likely to think of it as unnecessary SJW bull****.

I suppose that's true for some people, but this was positive feedback where they seemed to learn something, they genuinely were surprised at what they had heard.

For a lot of young people this is the first time they even think about consent, realize that it can be withdrawn, or understand previous consent doesn't automatically mean future consent. It hasn't featured in their life before this point. Idiots is probably a strong word, as adults we're supposed to inform them and get them thinking.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TheChizler wrote: »

I suppose that's true for some people, but this was positive feedback where they seemed to learn something, they genuinely were surprised at what they had heard.

This may be the missing clue: you went to something that wasn't actually lableled consent awareness.

Call it something else - for example: how to ask for what you want; or communication and sex - and you'll probably get exactly who you need to get listening.

TheChizler

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This may be the missing clue: you went to something that wasn't actually lableled consent awareness.

Call it something else - for example: how to ask for what you want; or communication and sex - and you'll probably get exactly who you need to get listening.

I agree, calling it consent classes and using words like mandatory seems to get peoples' backs up. Integrate into SPHE or classes on bystander intervention maybe.

Some colleges are proposing to make it a full mandatory 5 credit module, I don't agree with that. Your academic credits should be academic only IMO, that's what you signed up for. Make it part of registration or something, you can't get your results until you complete this along with everything else or something like that.

KikiLaRue

TheChizler wrote: »

I agree, calling it consent classes and using words like mandatory seems to get peoples' backs up. Integrate into SPHE or classes on bystander intervention maybe.

Some colleges are proposing to make it a full mandatory 5 credit module, I don't agree with that. Your academic credits should be academic only IMO, that's what you signed up for. Make it part of registration or something, you can't get your results until you complete this along with everything else or something like that.

SPHE is exactly where this should be taught, from first year on. Once kids start going to discos, they need age appropriate guidance. Teaching them at 15 or 16 is no good, let alone college.

But I have no issue with college credits, where I went you could get five credits for being part of clubs and societies on campus.

Jolly Red Giant

grahambo wrote: »

This p*sses me off a lot!

Why?

grahambo wrote: »

Consent is something people should know about well before they've reached college.

True

grahambo wrote: »

It's a very simple set rules:
You do not force yourself on anyone.
You don't wait until someone has had a few drinks to take advantage of them.
You don't say inappropriate things of a sexual nature to someone that doesn't want to hear it from you.

Got it

grahambo wrote: »

This is sh*t that should be thought (Drilled into teenagers) at home from young age.

Unfortunately it is not - and all the more reason for the government to stop blocking Solidarity's Objective Sex Education Bill that has the teaching of the concept of consent at its core.

grahambo wrote: »

Is this the SJWS over reacting or is the Problem that bad that we actually need this. (Which is sh*t if it is)

It is a major problem and it is sh*t - and something needs to be done about it.

lainey_d_123

grahambo wrote: »

Read this today:

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre support proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes



This p*sses me off a lot!

Consent is something people should know about well before they've reached college.
It's a very simple set rules:
You do not force yourself on anyone.
You don't wait until someone has had a few drinks to take advantage of them.
You don't say inappropriate things of a sexual nature to someone that doesn't want to hear it from you.

This is sh*t that should be thought (Drilled into teenagers) at home from young age.

Is this the SJWS over reacting or is the Problem that bad that we actually need this. (Which is sh*t if it is)

It is that bad, though. When I was in college, it seemed to be accepted as normal that you had to put up with inappropriate comments and even physical touching on a night out. Just 'one of those things'. I remember once going out in a miniskirt and some random guy trying to literally finger me and then asking me why I was wearing a miniskirt if I didn't want it. I think things might be a bit better now than when I was in college (graduated 10 years ago) but there was a shocking lack of boundaries and some very mixed up and disgraceful attitudes to women.

It's also crazy how common it still is for men to try to get you very drunk and take advantage. And they see nothing wrong with it. Now, I'm aware that we all have responsibility for ourselves and women aren't passive victims, but it is truly depressing how many men have tried to ply me with booze in the hope I'll go home with them.

lainey_d_123

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Therein lies the other problem: the people who need it most are the people who are ones who are likely to think of it as unnecessary SJW bull****.

And this is coming from someone who detests SJW woke-iness as much as most people.

This is definitely true. Predators never see themselves as predators. I knew a guy who at least borderline predatory, but he couldn't see it. He was in his late thirties and going to college nights in bars to hit on drunk teenagers, he saw nothing wrong with encouraging women to get drunk so they would be more likely to sleep with him, saw nothing wrong with suddenly grabbing women and kissing them out of nowhere, hoping they would be too shocked to tell him to get lost. It seemed like the idea of mutual enthusiasm was totally alien to him. I went on a date with him once (that's how we met) and he pushed me against a wall and tried to kiss me as we were leaving the bar. I was so turned off I didn't see him again romantically, and told him that he'd shot himself in the foot there, as I was definitely interested in him, but I don't have sex on first dates, especially not with people who try to force it.

He did confess once that he thought maybe some of the women he'd slept with hadn't really been into it, and that made him feel bad, but again, absolutely no recognition of the fact this could technically be rape. He said nobody had ever told him that, but you could tell he knew it wasn't right and was deluding himself. That's what these people do. It's all delusion. They create their own reality, surround themselves with people who don't challenge them and cut off anyone who does. We don't talk anymore. He blocked me after I expressed disgust about something he'd boasted about (a girl changed her mind in the middle of anal, got dressed and left, and he was angry about it, then called another girl to come over and had sex with her, as if to say 'f*ck you' to the first girl). That's what these people do.

TheChizler

KikiLaRue wrote: »

SPHE is exactly where this should be taught, from first year on. Once kids start going to discos, they need age appropriate guidance. Teaching them at 15 or 16 is no good, let alone college.

But I have no issue with college credits, where I went you could get five credits for being part of clubs and societies on campus.

Maybe both is needed. Certainly in secondary school but I'd imagine it'll swing and miss with people who are nowhere near that stage of their lives, and I don't think the bits on alcohol would be relevant to much of the audience. Some things don't register until you've something to relate them to. For a lot of 1st year students it's their first time drinking excessively away from home, a reminder while they're in the thick of it would hit home more than warning them years before they've seen anything like it.

One other thing to remember that this education isn't just directed towards perpetrators of sexual assault. A lot of people don't know or feel it's ok to say "no" or "stop", especially if they've previously indicated that they're ok with something.

suicide_circus

oh for the good old days when the moral panic was about GTA and Marilyn Manson.

Yamanoto

I'm gonna trust in humanity a wee bit & say that I don't believe we're at a point where the mandatory spoon-feeding of common sense to college age folks is a necessity.

KikiLaRue

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm gonna trust in humanity a wee bit & say that I don't believe we're at a point where the mandatory spoon-feeding of common sense to college age folks is a necessity.

Did you read the bit about the increase in assaults on campus?

looksee

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm gonna trust in humanity a wee bit & say that I don't believe we're at a point where the mandatory spoon-feeding of common sense to college age folks is a necessity.

It is undoubtedly true that the great majority of people do not have to be told that rape or non-mutual sexual activity is wrong. Unfortunately it is impossible to ask every person who goes to school 'do you fail to recognise that rape or non-mutual sexual activity is wrong, if you do you will have to attend a course'. So catch them all, and in the process maybe also educate a few innocents that they do not have to accept it either.

Calhoun

Ah another round of men all men are monsters and rapists. Once the are indoctrinated rape will cease to exist.

Feisar

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Did you read the bit about the increase in assaults on campus?

And that's a criminal offence and should be dealt with as such. Same as any other criminality. We are not hearing proposals for classes around burglary for some reason.

Who the feck tries to finger a girl because she's wearing a mini skirt? I don't believe Consent 101 will reach those kinds of people.

KikiLaRue

Feisar wrote: »

Who the feck tries to finger a girl because she's wearing a mini skirt? I don't believe Consent 101 will reach those kinds of people.

Lots of men. Not all men. Not even most men. A very small proportion overall. But plenty.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but your opinion doesn't appear to be based on anything? Why not give it a try for a period of three years or so and see if it has an impact?

Yamanoto

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Did you read the bit about the increase in assaults on campus?

There's no mention of an increase in assaults on campus - there's figures presented from a USI survey and mention of 'rising concerns over the level of rape and sexual assault on college campuses'.

lainey_d_123

Calhoun wrote: »

Ah another round of men all men are monsters and rapists. Once the are indoctrinated rape will cease to exist.

Why do men feel so victimised by this stuff? A not insignificant number of men are monsters and rapists, yes, and until they realise that they're not entitled to women's bodies, people will keep pushing for more education. Perhaps instead of whining and playing the victim, you might want to join in with teaching about boundaries and consent. Plenty of men are also in favour of these schemes.

KikiLaRue

Calhoun wrote: »

Ah another round of men all men are monsters and rapists. Once the are indoctrinated rape will cease to exist.

Literally no one said anything like this.

Where is your compassion for victims of sexual assault (who, of course, can be both male and female)?

Feisar

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Lots of men. Not all men. Not even most men. A very small proportion overall. But plenty.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but your opinion doesn't appear to be based on anything? Why not give it a try for a period of three years or so and see if it has an impact?

My opinion is as you point out based upon my own mileage as they say. I've always taken no as no and hmm as a no.

lainey_d_123

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Lots of men. Not all men. Not even most men. A very small proportion overall. But plenty.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but your opinion doesn't appear to be based on anything? Why not give it a try for a period of three years or so and see if it has an impact?

It's infuriating how many men simply refuse to believe that things happen because they don't happen to THEM. This is part of the problem. The denying and belittling.

One straight male friend of mine didn't really 'get' it until we dragged him to a gay bar to watch a friend's band and he got hit on and touched all night. It was a total revelation to him how intrusive and violating unwanted attention and touching can be. He was giving out about the cheek of a fella asking him what he was doing in a gay bar if he wasn't up for a shag, and I said 'have you any idea how many men have said that to me in my life?' and all the girls in the group loudly agreed. He gets it now.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Did you read the bit about the increase in assaults on campus?

That's a bit of a vague one. It just mentions that there has been in increase of assaults. It doesn't define what assaults, what the specific accusation was or how much of an increase. Or link to the study or source it's refering to.

Feisar

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Why do men feel so victimised by this stuff? A not insignificant number of men are monsters and rapists, yes, and until they realise that they're not entitled to women's bodies, people will keep pushing for more education. Perhaps instead of whining and playing the victim, you might want to join in with teaching about boundaries and consent. Plenty of men are also in favour of these schemes.

All the consent training in the world will not stop the monsters and rapists.

KikiLaRue

Feisar wrote: »

My opinion is as you point out based upon my own mileage as they say. I've always taken no as no and hmm as a no.

And my experience is most men will do the same.

But at a very rough estimate I'd say 1 in 20 won't on a night out. Now if there's hundreds of people in a club, I'll let you do the maths there.

KikiLaRue

Feisar wrote: »

All the consent training in the world will not stop the monsters and rapists.

Are you sure about that?

It may not stop the boogeyman in an alleyway from attacking, but there is a good chance it might stop a young lad from persisting with a girl who is clearly too drunk.

SoundsRight

No issue with teaching young men about consent, provided the girls are taught about taking responsibility for their behaviour and the consequences of excess drinking.

Feisar

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

It may not stop the boogeyman in an alleyway from attacking, but there is a good chance it might stop a young lad from persisting with a girl who is clearly too drunk.

No I'm not sure and maybe I'm being to black and white in my opinion of people. However the poster was referring to monsters which I took to be the boogeyman in the alleyway.

KikiLaRue

SoundsRight wrote: »

the consequences of excess drinking.

Do you mean hangovers?

Because getting raped is not a consequence of excess drinking.

BENDYBINN

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It's infuriating how many men simply refuse to believe that things happen because they don't happen to THEM. This is part of the problem. The denying and belittling.

One straight male friend of mine didn't really 'get' it until we dragged him to a gay bar to watch a friend's band and he got hit on and touched all night. It was a total revelation to him how intrusive and violating unwanted attention and touching can be. He was giving out about the cheek of a fella asking him what he was doing in a gay bar if he wasn't up for a shag, and I said 'have you any idea how many men have said that to me in my life?' and all the girls in the group loudly agreed. He gets it now.

Im of the opinion if men went out in skimpy clothes and their mickeys barely covered they would be hit on by the women to..........

Feisar

SoundsRight wrote: »

No issue with teaching young men about consent, provided the girls are taught about taking responsibility for their behaviour and the consequences of excess drinking.

Point being there shouldn't be consequences to getting pissed.

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Im of the opinion if men went out in skimpy clothes and their mickeys barely covered they would be hit on by the women to..........

Do you understand the difference between "hit on" and "assault", because it's a pretty crucial difference here.

SoundsRight

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you mean hangovers?

Because getting raped is not a consequence of excess drinking.

Predators target drunk girls.

meeeeh

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's a bit of a vague one. It just mentions that there has been in increase of assaults. It doesn't define what assaults, what the specific accusation was or how much of an increase. Or link to the study or source it's refering to.

Tgere is also likely an increase in reporting.

Anyway this should be already covered in sex ed in high school and there would be no need for consent classes and no whinging from usual suspects. Everyone knows you are not supposed to knock out someone, drag them into a dark alley and rape them. But somehow add drink to the mix and half the people think they can use that as an excuse and absolving themselves of the responsibility.

KikiLaRue

SoundsRight wrote: »

Predators target drunk girls.

Yes. So... girls shouldn't be allowed to ever get drunk? Perhaps we could ban women from drinking altogether, and then rape wouldn't happen?

Or we could target our measures at the actual criminal involved...

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between "hit on" and "assault", because it's a pretty crucial difference here.

Would a woman squeegeeing a mans ass be assault?

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Would a woman squeegeeing a mans ass be assault?

If it wasn't consensual, it would be considered an assault on the minor end of the scale.

The irony of a consent class being forced upon you.

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

If it wasn't consensual, it would be considered an assault on the minor end of the scale.

And what should the penalty be?

SoundsRight

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Yes. So... girls shouldn't be allowed to ever get drunk? Perhaps we could ban women from drinking altogether, and then rape wouldn't happen?

Or we could target our measures at the actual criminal involved...

They're allowed to drink. They just need to be aware that the more they drink, and the more revealing they dress, the greater the risk they're taking.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Feisar wrote: »

My opinion is as you point out based upon my own mileage as they say. I've always taken no as no and hmm as a no.

You realise, that's not consent? It's about getting a yes as much as accepting a no.

People have used that as a defense on the basis that the girl was passed out drunk.

SoundsRight wrote: »

No issue with teaching young men about consent, provided the girls are taught about taking responsibility for their behaviour and the consequences of excess drinking.

In fainress, EVERYONE should be taught about that. And not just for consent reasons.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Feisar wrote: »

Point being there shouldn't be consequences to getting pissed.

There are. Hangovers at the minor end of the scale, health implications at the major.

Drinking too much alcohol, ultimately, is going to out you in a vulnerable position.

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Would a woman squeegeeing a mans ass be assault?

Yep.

Deleted User wrote: »

The irony of a consent class being forced upon you.

Agreed but no one is suggesting mandatory (I hope!)

KikiLaRue

SoundsRight wrote: »

They're allowed to drink. They just need to be aware that the more they drink, and the more revealing they dress, the greater the risk they're taking.

This is exactly what people mean when they talk about "rape culture". It doesn't mean that people view rape as acceptable, which obviously most normal humans don't.

It means that when we talk about rape more emphasis is placed on how women "get themselves raped" than the rapist's behaviour.

Can you provide any links to back up the statement that women who dress more revealingly are more likely to be raped? Do you have any data points to back up that assertion?