M4 - Maynooth to Leixlip [planning and design underway]

highdef

In fairness, the M4 also splints into 2 motorways at kinnegad. Several large population centres are also served such as Leixlip, celbridge, maynooth, Mullingar, Athlone, Galway, Longford, Castlebar, Sligo..... To make just a few.

veryangryman

TBH I'd settle for this extra lane being a bus lane just to get the thing made. Fact is that even on a bus you can't get a clear run to the M50 from the Midlands or west. There's a definite business case and it that means needing to bend over for the greens then f it at this stage

maestroamado

I don't live in Dublin but considering we in climate mode at the moment would it not be better yo upgrade rail/bus system and encourage use of park and ride... is park and ride working well i Dublin... I think there needs to be a new road built between the Airport and M4 to take traffic away from M50 as pretty short route... also upgrade one of the existing routes between M4 and M7 but this may not be necessary if Airport traffic from M4 taken away...

bennyineire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118916380#Comment_118916380

4 responses but no answers and some gone off in a tangent 🤣, typical boards

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919833#Comment_118919833

This is still needed.

For the last time, road and rail solutions are not interchangeable. The solution to everything isn't more rail services. The M4 parallels the railway only from Dublin-Enfield, after that they diverge. So all N4 traffic entering Dublin from further out than Enfield will need more road capacity.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919833#Comment_118919833

Airport traffic is not significant enough to need a (hugely expensive) new road on that route; nor would that make ANY sense if you're trying to push public transport or climate stuff as the start of your post implied.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927691#Comment_118927691

Well its a lot quicker to do Airport/Lucan trip via R121 route than going round to M50... I am talking all times... what climate stuff....

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927684#Comment_118927684

so its not working if not joined up rail/air/bus/road...

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919323#Comment_118919323

Yeah for sure there are a lot of population centres on this route. I don't commute daily on this route but I travel home west to Galway on Fridays and in my experience the traffic flows okay (but quite slow) between Leixlip and Enfield. After this there are no traffic jams up to Kinnegad. In my experience it does not have the same level of traffic as the M7 (please correct me if wrong). The whole point about induced demand should not be ignored. It is a real and proven phenomenon.

As someone rightly suggests above, any additional lanes should be a bus lane. I personally know several people who travel by car daily on this route and there would be no justification for it, if a bus could wizz by traffic (on the M4) in half the time.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118920768#Comment_118920768

Someone answer poor Benny 😂

bennyineire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118928966#Comment_118928966

Thanks mate, another 5 tangent responses later FFS 🤣🤣

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118918679#Comment_118918679

"induced demand" has been debunked as complete nonsense. People like you would prefer we still had the potholed single laned roads through villages on the way to Dublin otherwise whisper it, we might "induce some demand". You anti-development Green spoofers need to be called out on your language.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118938423#Comment_118938423

Can you point us towards studies that debunk it as complete nonsense?

Kermit.de.frog

I wouldn't be opposed to a bus lane as long as there is also an extra traffic lane and the hard shoulder is maintained.

So it will be three running lanes | bus lane| hard shoulder.

8 lanes + 2 hard shoulders.

The UK has learned the hard way what happens when you remove hard shoulders and replace with running lanes. They have had to stop "smart motorways" because of the dangers this created.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118938423#Comment_118938423

😂😂😂 Gas!!!

People like you claim most scientists now agree that climate change is a myth and that there's no scientific evidence whatsoever. FACT..... As if using the word 'fact' makes it so. IT DOESN'T. I would love to see some scientific papers disproving the scientifically proven phenomenon of induced demand.

Also my post literally stated support for the M7 upgrade and you interpret this as a preference for "potholed single laned roads". Gas.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118940600#Comment_118940600

The M4 until the M6 diverge is exactly the same as the M7 with traffic both west and northwest being funneled in to just two lanes.

That's why it requires widening.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118940784#Comment_118940784

Exactly the same except for the number of vehicles using it daily!

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118940784#Comment_118940784

There are significantly more and significantly larger population centres on the M7 / M8 / M9 as compared to the M4 / M6. Open a map and this is abundantly clear.

The M4 / M6 split is 16kms further away from the M50 compared to M7 / M9 split. No one is suggesting / planning that we need 3 lanes all the way to Kinnegad. The proposed 3rd lane is intended to serve towns close to Dublin such as Maynooth / Celbridge / Leixlip. All of these are currently served by public transport and the idea of providing more road space to CARS will reduce traffic in short term but encourage more people to use cars in the medium to long term.

Give it 10 / 15 years and traffic will be back to where it is today. Widening motorways is sometimes the right thing, but I'm of the strong opinion it is a short sighted option for the M4.

brianc89

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118941530#Comment_118941530

That's why we do something called future proofing. I know it's an alien concept in Ireland.

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118942813#Comment_118942813

Connolly line from Maynooth is and has been ridiculously overcrowded for a long time. There ain't capacity for more people to abandon the car. The bus cant get in at any speed due to the million stops from Maynooth to city. 3 lanes is definitely needed, including for bus users. Imagine an enforced direct Maynooth to City bus lane

brianc89

If a 3rd lane is added on the M4 and it is a fully segregated bus lane, then I am wholly 100% supportive. You are right that the current train lines are at or above capacity. Hopefully with BusConnects and the planned segregated city centre spine routes, public transport will be transformed in Dublin and it's commuter towns.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118943465#Comment_118943465

What form would the future you envisage take? Would it be one where we still remain dependent on cars or would it be one with a hint of sustainability? It will be very difficult to secure funding and permission to widen motorways going forwards!

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118943833#Comment_118943833

Probably a future where the overall population of Ireland continues to grow steadily and the number of vehicles (private or public) on the roads is somewhat higher than today.

If planning or funding is too hard to secure in future, then we just need to change laws or governments respectively. Ireland is a democracy. We're not China, where the citizens have to just accept whatever the government tells them to do. If we don't like what our government is doing, we can change it.

Jayuu

A look at the 2022 traffic count data for on the TII website (https://trafficdata.tii.ie/publicmultinodemap.asp) shows the following ADTs on the N4 and N7 for comparison

• N04 Between Jn03 Newcastle and Jn04 Lucan: 80,268
• M04 Between Jn06 Celbridge and Jn07 Maynooth: 55,111
• M04 Maynooth,West : 42,629
• N07 Between Jn07 Kill and Jn08 Johnstown: 78,947
• M07 Between Jn10 Naas South and Jn11 M7/M9: 47,433
• M07 Between Jn12 Newbridge and Jn13 Kildare: 42,286

So as can be clearly seen the amount of traffic reaching Maynooth is greater than that reaching the M7/M9 interchange. I didn't see anybody saying that we shouldn't have widened the M7 to three lanes (to Junction 11) so I can't see how people can object to widening the M4 to three lanes at least as far as Maynooth.

KrisW1001

You have accidently left out the busiest sections of N7, all of which are within the same distance to M50 as the non-motorway N4.

• N7 between J3 and J4 : 93,000
• N7 between J2 and J3 : 102,000
• N7 between J1a and J2: 84,188
• N7 between J1a and J1: 103,000

That's a big difference in traffic. Not one part of N4 reaches these levels.

Further out, M4 traffic drops dramatically after Kilcock, from 42,600 to just 26,400. (and again, Kilcock is closer to Dublin than the M7/M9 interchange). That suggests a high percentage of commuter traffic, which could be better served by improved public transport.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952070#Comment_118952070

Or that most people commuting leave the M4 for the old N4 to avoid the toll thus leaving at kilcock

KrisW1001

...which would indicate that they aren’t going much further than Kilcock anyway.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952156#Comment_118952156

not really.. just people not waning to spend 2.90 twice a day 5 days a week.. still 19K a day as far as mullingar and tapering off slightly then

KrisW1001

There's a point where dodging the toll isn’t worth it in terms of additional journey time. For roads carrying a lot of long-distance travellers, you see a dip around the tolled section and an increase after. Here, about half the traffic East of Kilcock just isn't on the road west of Kilcock. Toll-dodging cannot account for all of that, as the drop is much, much higher than at other tolls. The conclusion is that Kilcock and nearby areas are the origin/destination for that traffic.

Mullingar is largely irrelevant in a discussion of the N4 at Lucan. It is large enough to generate its own local traffic, and 19k is so far below the capacity of the road type here that it's unlikely to ever need updating. Very little of that 19k daily traffic around the Mullingar bypass will end up on N4 at Lucan.

Speaking of Mullingar, there’s a much better use of money there: upgrading the very poor section of N4 North of Mullingar through Co Longford, but that's already in progress, and it's discussed on a different thread, here: N4 - Mullingar to Rooskey [route options published] - Page 6 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'.

marno21

It’s worth noting as well that the M4 toll is higher than the other inter urban motorway tolls. At €3 a pop it’s €6 for a return journey. Using that toll one a day for a week is €30. I can definitely see people not in a particular rush dodging that one.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954889#Comment_118954889

How much will taking the R148 (old N4) cost them in added travelling time coupled with the higher fuel costs?

"Penny wise and pound foolish"

L1011

Truck drivers used to avoid it en masse, loads used to stop at Mother Hubbards in Moyvalley for breaks.

Its closed down. Survived a decade plus but I imagine the increasing cost of fuel and time for drivers ate away at the point of skipping the toll.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954920#Comment_118954920

around 10 mins are so extra. the fuel would be easily off set driving at 80km vs 120km

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118938423#Comment_118938423

As somebody who works in the industry, I'd be really interested if you could pleasd post the studies that have debunked induced demand as I've never heard of such studies and the whole transport planning industry is still firmly under the impression that it is far from debunked but rather proven to be very real in virtually every piece of literature on the topic.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118943472#Comment_118943472

We're spending serious money on an upgrade of the rail service in maynooth though

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956494#Comment_118956494

Agreed on both points there.

I have a fuel card and don't pay for fuel. I drive a commercial Ford Focus......basically a Ford Focus with seating capacity of 2 instead of 5 by way of removing the rear bench seat. As a result, it's €4.50 a pop for me which is nearly €200 a month if I were to travel to Dublin 5 days a week (thankfully not the case in my case).

I've tried using the M4 toll road over the course of a full tank of diesel instead of using the N4 and my range is quite a bit better if I DON'T use the tolled motorway between Kinnegad and Kilcock. Over a full 50l tank, I get about 1,000km if I always use the M4 and I get about 1,100 to 1,150km if I use the N4 whilst sticking to the speed limits. Although I don't pay for the fuel, I try not to waste fuel either.

Unless I'm in a serious hurry for something and I need to shave 10 minutes off a time critical journey, you don't need to be a rocket scientist which road I take.

I told ya

Would love to see the removal of the traffic lights on the stretch from the junction of R839 to Palmerstown. That would be a big help.

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952070#Comment_118952070

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make and if it was to me. My point is that the traffic volume on the M4 at Maynooth exceeds that at the M7/M9 interchange. So if the M7 was worth expanding to three lanes to that point the M4 can justify three lanes to Maynooth. I don't think there's any justification for extending beyond that.

KrisW1001

Yes, it was to your post, and the point was that, in your argument that the M7 and M4 are equally busy and so M4 equally deserving of lane upgrades, you used M7 traffic figures taken much further from the M50 than your M4 traffic figures, then ignored the dramatic drop at Kilcock, which shows just how much of a car-commuter route M4 is. Car-commuters can be served in better ways than by making a wider traffic jam for them to sit in every morning and evening.

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004809#Comment_119004809

I took figures from the point where the M4 is to be extended to - Maynooth - and pointed out that they are the higher as those at the end of the three lane M7. I didn't see anybody saying that the M7 didn't required widening around Naas and yet that's based on lower traffic figures. Are you saying you don't think the M7 widening should have taken place?

You mentioned Kilcock but I've never mentioned it in my posts. I'm not suggesting going that far because I agree that the volume drops enough at Maynooth to let it go back to two lanes at that point. I think the volume of cars justifies what is a two junction, 8km extension from J5 to J7 on the M4. There's a wide enough margin to take it and it shouldn't be an onerous build apart from a redesign of the Maynooth junction itself as the current junction there is not fit for purpose even without a widening of the road.

As for alternative methods of transport the reality is that Maynooth train station is simply not fit for a substantial increase in commuters. It's right in the centre of town with very little/if any scope for additional parking assuming your going to encourage more people on to the train commuter service. The bus routes have already been changed with the rollout of the C-spine and numerous express services into town and yet traffic on the M4 remains a problem.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006391#Comment_119006391

Maynooth is (was?) prime for additional commuters but Kildare CoCo happily granted planning permission for hundreds of additional houses that sprawl out from the town. If those people were living in apartments closer to the town, they’d all be within walking distance of the train station. Building P&R in a town is a terrible idea for a load of reasons. Running a local bus service from nearby housing estates is about as good as it’s going to get right now.

There’s still the problem at the other end - Dublin has facilitated large employment centres along the M50 which aren’t easily serviced by suburban rail. Getting a train from Maynooth to Connolly and then a Luas to Citywest or Sandyford is never going to be attractive to many people. The unpredictably of the M50 at least gives them the hope of occasionally shorter commutes.

Seth Brundle

Maynooth is (was?) prime for additional commuters but Meath CoCo happily granted planning permission for hundreds of additional houses that sprawl out from the town. If those people were living in apartments closer to the town, they’d all be within walking distance of the train station. Building P&R in a town is a terrible idea for a load of reasons. Running a local bus service from nearby housing estates is about as good as it’s going to get right now.

Presumably you mean Kildare Co Co gave the permission (the county line is along the Rye way out the Moyglare Rd). This doesn't surprise me given their approach in Celbridge which was to zone the land to the north of the town for housing when the nearest train station is at Hazelhatch (to the south of the town). However, you're right - it is a decent walk to the train station from say the new schools if you're going to have to spend up to an hour on the train.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/KildareCoCo/status/1568147698619916288?t=r0BwlMlN5HY0HrK55LTbjA&s=19

-_-

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603308#Comment_119603308

Thanks for sharing, haven't seen that anywhere else, and the closing date is only a week away? How come for the most minor part 8 there seems to be a 6-8wk consultation, but making changes to a motorway gets pushed on through?

Looks like a lot of "improvements" at junctions (hopefully actual improvements for active travel) and bus lanes in the hard shoulders, with only negative possibility being the addition of a third lane outbound.

If people break down, do they block the bus lane? Queues at off-ramps are going to be great for public transport too, I hope there's camera enforcement throughout.

Personally looking forward to improvements at J6 - the meandering path that pedestrians and cyclists have to take through it, let alone the difficulty in judging when it's safe due to the speed of the car traffic, it doesn't induce people to leave the car behind when going from Leixlip to Castletown House for instance.

L1011

That website is absolutely awful. Just give me a list of the PDFs ffs!

Third lane outbound is fairly innocuous - inbound would just be inviting more traffic on to a road network that has no space; but outbound is constant phantom delays due to braking etc and plenty of road capacity beyond.

Bus lanes are more likely to help people who live well beyond Maynooth change to bus, rather than Maynooth itself - as none of the commuter buses to Maynooth use the M4!

I mainly just want this done so they have a road surface that isn't 30 years old and noisy as hell. I don't live that close to the road but can hear the traffic all the time.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605808#Comment_119605808

I'm of the same opinion on the virtual consultation rooms. There's a 'List View' at top right that will give you a menu of PDFs.

spacetweek

Let me summarise for all of you.

Some improvement options have now been discounted and are off the table. These include:

- Widening to 6 lanes with bus lanes [my preferred option]

- Improving Junction 7 Maynooth and building a new junction immediately to the west

- Closing J7 Maynooth, converting to overbridge and building a new junction to the west and a new junction to the east

- Parallel single carriageway road closely following the motorway

The options that are still in play are:

- Adding bus lanes with no widening

- Adding bus lanes and widening from 2 to 3 lanes outbound (westbound)

- Improving J7 Maynooth

- Closing J7 Maynooth, converting to overbridge and building a new junction to the west

- Improving J6 Celbridge

- Improving existing overbridges

spacetweek

A 2+3 config now looks like the most likely runner instead of 3+3 which is a pity but it'll do. The bus lanes are nice, as is closure and replacement of J7.

I'm not sure what road changes to J6 Celbridge could possibly be needed, so all the improvements here are probably for pedestrians and cyclists.

Seth Brundle

I'm not sure what road changes to J6 Celbridge could possibly be needed, so all the improvements here are probably for pedestrians and cyclists.

That "roundbout" is a complete mess. Most drivers heading from Leixlip towards Celbridge & M4W don't know what lane to be in - does it even need two lanes all the way around?

The dual carriageway leading from Leixlip means that in general drivers are travelling at speeds which make it quite unsafe for pedestrians and cyclists. The metal barriers make it less safe and more inconvenient for pedestrians and cyclists.

The entire interchange needs a design rethink which prioritises vulnerable road users and makes it more difficult for incompetent drivers to be in the wrong lane.