'Farming'.

auspicious

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtd_NS9-Q4

I wonder, how long does the sow in the farrowing crate at the end of the clip gnaw on that metal bar, daily?
Being quite an intelligent animal, it (she) must realise that the piglet's death throes are unnatural...

davidjtaylor

Wait for the “mmmm bacon” and the indignant “but trespassing” trolls, they’ll be along shortly, auspicious.

Tar.Aldarion

If you want to discuss the post and animal welfare at hand then please do so, don't bring down the level of discussion by talking about other posters, thanks!

Mortelaro

As a farmer I don't watch videos like that (whatever it is) or even open links,I just pass them onto cruelty officers for their attention
I like a lot of vegan food but I also like meat and came across this thread from the front page

jh79

I stopped after the pig farm, what exactly am i supposed to be concerned about? I braced myself for something shocking and just saw some pigs in pens. Didn't have sound on so maybe i'm missing something.

jh79

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtd_NS9-Q4

I wonder, how long does the sow in the farrowing crate at the end of the clip gnaw on that metal bar, daily?
Being quite an intelligent animal, it (she) must realise that the piglet's death throes are unnatural...

Sound didn't add anything.

As i said in another thread, Earthling Ed is either an idiot or willing to say anything to further his cause due to his promotion of veg as a cure for cancer.

But in this case was he too big of an idiot to highlight the suffering of the piglet to the farmer so a vet could be called or happy to exploit its suffering to push his agenda?

gozunda

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Wait for the “mmmm bacon” and the indignant “but trespassing” trolls, they’ll be along shortly, auspicious.

Is that the best you can offer david by way of discussion? There's trolling alright but as far as I can see here not in the way you detail.

Are others not allowed to comment on these videos? Or does freedom of expression only work for select groups?

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtd_NS9-Q4I wonder, how long does the sow in the farrowing crate at the end of the clip gnaw on that metal bar, daily?
Being quite an intelligent animal, it (she) must realise that the piglet's death throes are unnatural...

Dont think that is a farrowing crate tbh. The side footage of the pig in that video appears to be a temporary holding crate used when a pig is being treated by a farmer etc and not a sow in a farrowing crate - although its hard to see from the angle of the video footage tbh.

I took a look at the selected video footage and tbh the pigs look healthy and are not stressed etc even with the presence of so many strangers. As to the piglet- it is sleeping imo and is confirmed by a second piglet in the footage also apparently sleeping (and twitching) behind the first one. When piglets sleep they completely flake out. The movements imo are not 'death throws' (sic)

The other point is that the farrowing crates are normally used for I believe a period of six weeks and are used to protect the piglets from being rolled on and potentially killed by the sow.

There are raft of welfare regulations relating to pigs in the UK and Europe

For example see:
http://www.pig-world.co.uk/news/highlighting-the-differences-how-uk-welfare-standards-compare-with-our-competitors.html

It should be noted that some farmers use other systems to farrowing crates

Note: Interesting footage in that video of the police moving said activists. So yes indeed there would appear to be some issues relating to trespassing when 40 or so strangers and invade a working farm.

Question for David. How would you feel if a large group invaded your farm and proceeded to walk over your vegetable beds etc, take video footage and investigate whether anything interesting or illegal might be going on?

davidjtaylor

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

If you want to discuss the post and animal welfare at hand then please do so, don't bring down the level of discussion by talking about other posters, thanks!

Sorry TA. You know where I’m coming from. :rolleyes:

Nekarsulm

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtd_NS9-Q4

I wonder, how long does the sow in the farrowing crate at the end of the clip gnaw on that metal bar, daily?
Being quite an intelligent animal, it (she) must realise that the piglet's death throes are unnatural...

Hard to tell if its dying, or asleep & dreaming.
If she could reach that piglet, she'd probably eat it herself.
Some sows are cannabalistic, and as well as preventing them accidently lying on a piglet ( crates have a design to make a sow have to give a wriggle before flopping down) the crate stops her snapping at piglets who wander near her mouth.

Tilikum17

Farrowing crates are the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen.

‘Animals run no risk of going to hell, they are there already’

Victor Hugo.

gozunda

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Farrowing crates are the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen.

‘Animals run no risk of going to hell, they are there already’Victor Hugo.

The same could be said of the many humans tbh.

So Tilikum would you prefer that piglets in indoor systems are squashed by the sow? Personally I prefer more free range systems but tbh the use of farrowing crates are allowed for a limited period to safeguard piglets. Their use is covered by EU legislation and standards.

emaherx

jh79 wrote: »

Sound didn't add anything.

As i said in another thread, Earthling Ed is either an idiot or willing to say anything to further his cause due to his promotion of veg as a cure for cancer.

But in this case was he too big of an idiot to highlight the suffering of the piglet to the farmer so a vet could be called or happy to exploit its suffering to push his agenda?

It's funny how in the footage I saw earlier this week the farmer had claimed at least 2 piglets had died as a direct result of the invasion of this group, they won't show that in their footage but will stand there and video what they claim to be dying piglets.

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/farmer-claims-animal-rights-activists-2602987

emaherx

emaherx wrote: »

It's funny how in the footage I saw earlier this week the farmer had claimed at least 2 piglets had died as a direct result of the invasion of this group, they won't show that in their footage but will stand there and video what they claim to be dying piglets.

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/farmer-claims-animal-rights-activists-2602987

While doing nothing to ease its suffering.

ganmo

Good animal welfare should always look at the whole picture
is sticking needles into piglets good animal welfare? no
is injecting piglets with iron good animal welfare? yes
while doing it they scream and wriggle and it's safe to say it looks a bit like torture from but for the overall welfare of the animal it is a good thing.

now to address the activities of the activists, (oh alliteration) their presence prevented the farmer from going about their daily routine, delayed feeding, missed checks the small things that you might do while walking through the yard. Oh but they were peaceful!? 200 vegan activists doesn't sound peaceful to a livestock farmer.

all in all the activists got what they wanted, and the farmer will probably put up a better fence

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

While doing nothing to ease its suffering.

^^ This. A lot of footage which is posted online and especially on YouTube rants about the alleged 'horrible' condition of animals in the food industry as if it mattered to them. As far as I can see - it doesn’t matter to them, because whilst many of these these individuals clearly state they are opposed to all rearing and eating of animals, they do nothing to improve the actual conditions which they allege are prevalent.

So the end result is that many of these groups effectively use such footage for monetization but do nothing for the actual animals they portray as 'suffering'.

I find this whole campaign of 'action' to be utterly hypocritical tbh.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

What's the answer though? Setting all farmed animals free (do pets fall into that category as well?) Or should they all be euthanized?

It's a pity Ed wasn't arrested and charged with trespassing among other things, or is that not important here?

_Brian

We buy our weaned piglets from a small scale operator who sells on DD. I think he has maybe 20 sows, they don’t use farrowing crates.

The walls of the pens are lined with tyres which he says gives piglets room not to be squashed under the sow when she moves. Once they are fit they are all turned out anyway. He does loose an odd one to the sow but not many.

So there is a middle ground between the conditions shown and the “turn all the animals free and let’s eat a salad” mantra.

Many of the issues highlighted in such videos are related to very intensive farming practice. As a farmer it’s not something that appeals to me at all, I much rather see free range style lower densitity farms. Yes the produce is more expensive but that’s ok, it better reflects the intrinsic value of the produce.

Meat shouldn’t be cheap, that’s a race to the bottom for both farmers and animal welfare.

Lady Haywire

I'm fully in agreement with Brian on this one. I detest intensive style farms but it appears to be the way we are heading to feed the masses cheap meat & veg. But just like vegans don't like being tarred with the same loony brush as Earthling Ed & the Youtube ilk, why do you do the exact same to farmers.
We're not all money chasing dunderheads in landrovers chopping down trees & kicking lambs.
You can pick & choose what videos to force your agenda, is this why vegans don't show the good ones? Because it *might* show people that maybe farming can be done in a respectful manner.

If you're going to try & change the world, it would make more sense to promote the best way to do something, which in turn would make meat more expensive as less would be produced. Natural cessation of meat eating would then occur is vegetables were much cheaper.
Be far easier than this 'DON'T EAT MEAT, CRUEL FARMERS, LOOK AT THEM' business.

_Brian

I think at the end of the day the problem is that the vegan movement won’t accept even the highest standards of animal farming.

Saying they are highlighting these pig farms because farrowing crates are being used is disingenuous. If they had turned up and the sows were in stalls with the piglets there would have been a commotion about that too. Same if they were 100% free range.

I beleive that farmers need to be held to the highest standards, I don’t agree with all the current standards particularly those facilitating industrial farming.
200 strangers tramping onto a farm where bio security is important and making a general nuisance of themselves with the farmer isn’t the way to go. Using their influence to have better welfare standards implemented would have much more positive effects on animals lives.

However, the crux of the issue is that the vegan movement have no interest in better farming practice, there is no tolerance for another way of life other than theirs. The lack of tolerance manifests often in hate campaigns, mis information, abuse both verbal and physical, obstruction of premises, damage to property.

There were more than 3000 reported cases of shocking animal cruelty in Ireland, the vast vast majority in pets and non farmed animals. Yet I don’t see vegan protests against pet ownership, I don’t see vegan groups out harassing pet owners in the street or at their homes, I don’t see them at race courses.

So it seems the intolerance is directed to farming families, remember most farms are homes, invading a farm is invading the home property of a family and desperate stress and anxiety is caused.

It is difficult to see veganism as anything other than a vehicle for intolerance for the views of others.

davidjtaylor

The RSPCA insists that it is not motivated by the fees it receives for certifying salmon farms. These, it says, “are ploughed back into the scheme’s running costs.” I’m sure this is true. The problem, I feel, runs much deeper: to my eyes, its mission seems to have slipped from preventing cruelty to modifying industrial animal farming. If its objective is to prevent cruelty, surely it should instead endorse the rapid shift towards veganism?

Source

_Brian

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Source

You realise that dumping in text and a link isn’t a discussion ?

davidjtaylor

Lady Haywire wrote: »

You can pick & choose what videos to force your agenda, is this why vegans don't show the good ones? Because it *might* show people that maybe farming can be done in a respectful manner.

With respect, LH, you can't expect vegans to promote any kind of farming.

Lady Haywire wrote: »

If you're going to try & change the world, it would make more sense to promote the best way to do something

100%.

Tar.Aldarion

I dunno, I promote the vegetable kind

davidjtaylor

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I dunno, I promote the vegetable kind

Haha! Well spotted. Animal farming of course.

There again, my mother used to abuse vegetables.

_Brian

davidjtaylor wrote: »

With respect, LH, you can't expect vegans to promote any kind of farming.



100%.

Tolerance is all that is asked for, humans have as many viewpoints as there are humans, tolerance and acceptance of the opinion and beliefs of another isn’t that much to ask though.

Good farmers 100% beleive what they are doing is right, moral and justified. It’s done within the relaxant animal welfare laws if the state. I can 100% understand going after those who flout animal welfare laws, I’ve no time for these people either and have reported “farmers” where I came across instances I thought were out of control.

I’ve stated before, the vegan lifestyle isn’t without it’s intentional indiscriminate killing of sentient creatures. But I understand that it’s part of farming crops to do these things.

Donald Trump

I know nothing about pig farming, but those animals in the video appear to be well looked after and clean. I reckon those trespassing sc**bags know even less about pig farms than I do



I'm not anti-vegan btw. I try not to eat much meat and for a long time I actually cut out dairy. I generally like vegetarian or vegan dishes as the people making them put more effort into making them taste nice (if you are in a proper place)

nice_guy80

How many vegans actually try and grow their own vegetables?
That would cut down a huge amount of packaging, travelling and food waste.

All these new vegan places opening around the place and most of them are serving cheap fast food, vegan style. With veg and fruit sourced from who knows where

Even all the new 'Vegan' stuff in supermarkets. Who is checking to ensure it is actually vegan?

Donald Trump

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How many vegans actually try and grow their own vegetables?
That would cut down a huge amount of packaging, travelling and food waste.

Well what you are saying is true. But I would imagine it is possible, and not necessarily inconsistent, to be a vegan for either personal health choices or principled reasons due to not wanting animal products and not care about packaging or transport etc.

davidjtaylor

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How many vegans actually try and grow their own vegetables?
That would cut down a huge amount of packaging, travelling and food waste

To be fair, the question should be asked of everybody, substituting ‘vegan’ with ‘people’ and ‘vegetables’ with ‘food’.

In my experience (having encountered hundreds of them personally), vegans tend towards being more aware of the impact of their food choices.

nice_guy80

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well what you are saying is true. But I would imagine it is possible, and not necessarily inconsistent, to be a vegan for either personal health choices or principled reasons due to not wanting animal products and not care about packaging or transport etc.

Yes, i agree with that.
However, you'd have to question the recent explosion of vegan eateries and options around Dublin as to the providence of much of the food and ingredients.

There is no way there isn't cross contamination in many kitchens in terms of ingredients, utensils used and food storage.

Markcheese

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yes, i agree with that.
However, you'd have to question the recent explosion of vegan eateries and options around Dublin as to the providence of much of the food and ingredients.

There is no way there isn't cross contamination in many kitchens in terms of ingredients, utensils used and food storage.

Are We talking accidental, one pot next to another on the hob, or deliberately...
(most kitchens are very aware of cross contamination risks, they have to be with nut, shellfish, gluten allergies Ect....)

Donald Trump

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yes, i agree with that.
However, you'd have to question the recent explosion of vegan eateries and options around Dublin as to the providence of much of the food and ingredients.

There is no way there isn't cross contamination in many kitchens in terms of ingredients, utensils used and food storage.

Well if it's a vegan place I'd assume they don't have non vegan ingredients around for contamination.


If it's a normal restaurant with a vegan soup and they don't wash the spoon between stirring the vegan soup and the oxtail - I don't think it's going to kill anyone. Some would be upset of course.



I went to a vegan friend's wedding recently. Three options - vegetarian, vegan or beef. Selected when rsvp'ing. Because it was my friend's wedding I said I'd try vegan. As did all my table there. Turned out the staff brought out vegetarian rather than vegan option for us. Did I care? No. I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian. It was a very nice meal though!



A good proportion of the food you eat is presumably "vegan". Everything a vegan eats, you can, and probably do, eat. In general I don't get a lot of peoples' incredulity towards "vegan".

Tar.Aldarion

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yes, i agree with that.
However, you'd have to question the recent explosion of vegan eateries and options around Dublin as to the providence of much of the food and ingredients.

There is no way there isn't cross contamination in many kitchens in terms of ingredients, utensils used and food storage.

Depends on your reasoning. For me: It's not an allergy, I don't mind if something has contaminated something else. It in no way increases or decreases suffering of others. I can see others minding and that a lot of places do have strict cross contamination policies etc.

Tar.Aldarion

Donald Trump wrote: »

A good proportion of the food you eat is presumably "vegan". Everything a vegan eats, you can, and probably do, eat. In general I don't get a lot of peoples' incredulity towards "vegan".

Yeah, the majority of people's calories are, and at least should be vegan anyway. It makes sense that most calories are not coming from animals unless you rely heavily on animal products.

People often don't like that others are vegan and are put on the defensive by default because by merely existing they think the vegan person is saying they are a bad person. Nobody likes to think they are in the wrong. That's often why if I sit down to a meal and somebody points out that I'm vegan, the line of questioning tends to follow the path of finding something I do wrong or something along those lines.

nice_guy80

My point is, how do we know that cafes and restaurants are actually using vegan friendly ingredients?

In sauces, desserts, pastries

Tar.Aldarion

nice_guy80 wrote: »

My point is, how do we know that cafes and restaurants are actually using vegan friendly ingredients?

In sauces, desserts, pastries

You have to trust they are a professional operation, you can't really know. Considering they could get sued and ruin their own business for serving allergens secretly, that also plays a part. People can die from having eggs/dairy etc so it's increasingly taken seriously. Along with that more places are opening that are wholly vegan.

Markcheese

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yeah, the majority of people's calories are, and at least should be vegan anyway. It makes sense that most calories are not coming from animals unless you rely heavily on animal products.

People often don't like that others are vegan and are put on the defensive by default because by merely existing they think the vegan person is saying they are a bad person. Nobody likes to think they are in the wrong. That's often why if I sit down to a meal and somebody points out that I'm vegan, the line of questioning tends to follow the path of finding something I do wrong or something along those lines.

Which is a bit unfair, (and I probably am guilty of it at times in my more awkward moments),
Although I do find it awkward when something isn't vegan enough for someone (usually from the same person who 2 years ago was on a gluten free trip, then it was does it have dairy, always followed by the lecture).

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yeah, the majority of people's calories are, and at least should be vegan anyway. It makes sense that most calories are not coming from animals unless you rely heavily on animal products.

People often don't like that others are vegan and are put on the defensive by default because by merely existing they think the vegan person is saying they are a bad person. Nobody likes to think they are in the wrong. That's often why if I sit down to a meal and somebody points out that I'm vegan, the line of questioning tends to follow the path of finding something I do wrong or something along those lines.

All "people" are like that ? I don't believe that is generally the case tbh. Some indeed may be like that as you suggest

In my experience the opposite more often holds true where a small number of vegans often don't like that others are non vegan and are put on the defensive by default because by merely existing they think the person eating a normal diet is (the same as) saying they are a bad person.

davidjtaylor

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

You have to trust they are a professional operation, you can't really know. Considering they could get sued and ruin their own business for serving allergens secretly, that also plays a part. People can die from having eggs/dairy etc so it's increasingly taken seriously. Along with that more places are opening that are wholly vegan.

Yes. None of all this happens in a vacuum. You have to get to know the staff in places you visit regularly. It helps. At a local Indian restaurant, I got to know a server and he points out what's vegan and what's not whenever we're in. In another, the chef (whom I knew already) came to me for advice!

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

You have to trust they are a professional operation, you can't really know. Considering they could get sued and ruin their own business for serving allergens secretly, that also plays a part. People can die from having eggs/dairy etc so it's increasingly taken seriously. ..

And that I believe relates to all businesses including all types of farming.

Anyone can throw unsubstantiated insinuations and accusations. It remains that the majority of farmers - animal and otherwise run professional operations and are mindful of both animals welfare and health.

Considering that farmers and food producers are professionally inspected and must meet a raft of draconian but necessary regulations and standards. They could ruin their own business for providing anything less than good quality food. So yes it's taken very seriously indeed. It's true that people may also die of peanut allergies nut, soy and similar. And that is why issues of food quality and accidental adulteration is legislated for. There are 14 allergens which must be alerted for by law: See: https://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/food_information_fic/allergens.html

I believe it goes without saying that people can also die or become sick from many things including adulterated food or food imported from areas with few of any environmental or ethical standards. But for some strange reason - there seems to be little concern for that but more for bashing and belittling only the produce of animal farming in Ireland. Why is that .....

nice_guy80

gozunda wrote: »

And that I believe relates to all businesses including all types of farming.

Anyone can throw unsubstantiated insinuations and accusations. It remains that the majority of farmers - animal and otherwise run professional operations and are mindful of both animals welfare and health.

Considering that farmers and food producers are professionally inspected and must meet a raft of draconian but necessary regulations and standards. They could ruin their own business for providing anything less than good quality food. So yes it's taken very seriously indeed. It's true that people may also die of peanut allergies nut, soy and similar. And that is why issues of food quality and accidental adulteration is legislated for. There are 14 allergens which must be alerted for by law: See: https://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/food_information_fic/allergens.html

I believe it goes without saying that people can also die or become sick from many things including adulterated food or food imported from areas with few of any environmental or ethical standards. But for some strange reason - there seems to be little concern for that but more for bashing and belittling only the produce of animal farming in Ireland. Why is that .....

Who would actually sue over getting a vegan dish that turned out to be non vegan?

There are a lot of chancers around too.
I wonder about a few of our local restaurants and Asian food outlets now offering vegan options and whether they are actually vegan. Considering I'd even question the providence of their regular menu items

_Brian

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Who would actually sue over getting a vegan dish that turned out to be non vegan?

There are a lot of chancers around too.
I wonder about a few of our local restaurants and Asian food outlets now offering vegan options and whether they are actually vegan. Considering I'd even question the providence of their regular menu items

One regular slur of Asian restaurants is they are serving cat or dog meat rather than chicken or beef. I can 100% say after eating dog meat last time I was in China that they do not. I’ve tried allot of meats and it was by far the most disappointing and worst to eat I’ve ever tried. Similarly pigeon cannot he passed off as chicken.

Donald Trump

_Brian wrote: »

One regular slur of Asian restaurants is they are serving cat or dog meat rather than chicken or beef. I can 100% say after eating dog meat last time I was in China that they do not. I’ve tried allot of meats and it was by far the most disappointing and worst to eat I’ve ever tried. Similarly pigeon cannot he passed off as chicken.

Can't beat the oul' Tesco horse burgers though!







(Just giving an example of cases when it can happen with meat. For those who are worried about vegans getting cross contaminated by not washing a spoon)

Donald Trump

Genuine question on the other side.

Are there any examples in Ireland where activists have went out and bought land in order to give animals the life they want the animals to have? even just a small one as an example/prototype?

A farmer with a bit of land is only trying to make a living from it. A person living in the city/town with even a moderately well paying job presumably has a lot more disposable income.

So it would appear a bit rich for the latter to want the former to destroy their livelihood down to nothing when then latter actually has capacity to do what they want to see being done without affecting their own livelihood. But perhaps there are successful examples. I'd be interested to know

I know there are different degrees. I'm talking about the more extreme people

_Brian

Donald Trump wrote: »

Can't beat the oul' Tesco horse burgers though!







(Just giving an example of cases when it can happen with meat. For those who are worried about vegans getting cross contaminated by not washing a spoon)

I’ve eaten horse, it’s a fine meat, obviously indistinguishable from beef.

davidjtaylor

Donald Trump wrote: »

Are there any examples in Ireland where activists have went out and bought land in order to give animals the life they want the animals to have? even just a small one as an example/prototype?

Yes, they're called sanctuaries and there are several I can think of.

ganmo

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, they're called sanctuaries and there are several I can think of.

only one that really fits the bill, most try to re-home the animals they get

found this though

As its activities of offering a home to non-human animals who have been rescued from human use, along with the promotion of their right not to be bred, owned, used or killed, do not fit within the definition of a charitable organisation in the Republic of Ireland, **** is not a registered charity.

nice_guy80

We've 90 acres, not one animal on it

Make more money off cutting silage and selling it, allowing one farmer graze one field for horses.

Donald Trump

_Brian wrote: »

I’ve eaten horse, it’s a fine meat, obviously indistinguishable from beef.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. Just gave it as a high-profile example of where people were eating something they thought was something else.

Donald Trump

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes, they're called sanctuaries and there are several I can think of.

I googled and found one. At least they are putting some money where their mouths are.



They have a post though where they welcomed their "First Cow", which was named Cormac, in 2016. So I assume the "cow" was a bull calf. I wonder how they got on with him. Did they castrate him or leave him as a bull? Bulls are dangerous and it's common enough for them to have to be killed if they get aggressive. Castration does have an effect on the growth of an animal.



They have an emotive post describing how the poor baby calf was immediately taken away from the mother so that her milk could be used by humans. Well that's not true because normal procedures invariably mean that you cannot use a cow's milk for human consumption for the first few days after her calf is born. I'm not saying they didn't immediately take the calf away, but it wasn't for that reason if they did so. When someone sees things like that, and they know it is exaggerating or with poetic licence, then it leads them to be skeptical about the rest of what they read!



The other irony is that to feed that calf, they'd have had to depend on milk-replacer which is a by-product of the dairy industry. If they wanted to do it "right" they could also have bought a cow.