Is it wrong to judge pregnant women/people who willingly smoke around pregnant women?

Sheeps

Came across a debate on twitter recently where by some self proclaimed "woke" individuals were taking issue with other people who were condemning women who smoke whilst pregnant. The same applied for people who smoke around pregnant women. The pro choice line of reasoning was being employed, citing that it was the woman's body and therefore her choice what to do with her body, despite every intention to carry the foetus to term, and having long term effects on the child's health.

Given that most people who were holding the opinion that it is wrong to judge these women are using the pro-choice argument, but at the same time they were condemning people who smoke around women, is it not a bit of a hypocrisy given their moral equivalency?

Do you think it's acceptable to scorn people who smoke during or around a pregnancy?

Is it child abuse?

edit: Accidentally made the poll results private, could a mod make the poll results public please?

Gimme A Pound

I don't think it's child abuse but it's sh1tty not to at least cut down. And it's obnoxious to smoke close to anyone unless they're smoking too.

Yer Da sells Avon

All I can think of is that 'beans and muff' scene from The Office Christmas Special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQ90mb0mWs

Scorning pregnant women, if they smoke, isn't going to achieve anything except make them smoke in private. And perhaps hide their problem from their doctor.

Stigmatising any addiction does not work as a means of overcoming it.

Every woman knows it can harm the baby, they don't need some randomer scowling at them. I'd hope there'd be greater awareness of the resources that exist to help people quit smoking, even if only for the duration of the pregnancy, such as cessation programmes designed with pregnant women in mind.

Cookie_Monster

You're pregnant, how dare you.
And that guy over there is smoking, meh.

suicide_circus

clump of cells, who gives a hoot

Trump Is Right

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You're pregnant, how dare you.
And that guy over there is smoking, meh.

No-one forced them to get pregnant (in most cases), so it is a responsibility they have decided to take on.

Just like most people in society consider it their responsibility, as a decent citizen, to look out for vulnerable pregnant women and help them if they are struggling with something...

If we went down your line of thinking, then we should all just ignore heavily pregnant women... and treat them like any other member of society. No special treatment, no help or understanding if they're struggling with anything.

This is where hardline feminist thinking is damaging our society. We cannot treat even pregnant women differently, because it's considered sexist... totally bonkers... :rolleyes:... a pregnant woman smoking is VERY different to a non-pregnant person who smokes!

maxsmum

I work with a (pretty politically incorrect doctor) and he always says about pregnant women smoking 'theyll get their reward with an ADHD child". I think there's some link there?
I work near a maternity hospital and it's amazing seeing pregnant women outside puffing away without a bother. I felt so sick on my pregnancy that I could barely tolerate toast let alone the smell of smoke!

Zorya

Oh dear, it's a terrible thing to do the poor baby. I have seen pregnant women smoke and, let's be honest, it's a nasty sight. In my past I would have enjoyed the odd roll up or three, of an evening with some nice wine, but yikes, never when pregnant. That includes drinking, too. That is some precious cargo you're carrying - don't poison it. Don't do it, kids, it's really not fair.

Deebles McBeebles

I heard it makes the baby come out with sunglasses, as cool as The Fonz. Instead of crying when it comes out it just goes....eehhhhhhhhhh.

silverharp

if someone is going to be that selfish , they aint going to make great parents, sure knock back plenty of vodka while you are at it luv

Lollipops23

I don't agree with hospitals testing women to see if they're smoking, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't judge her if I saw a pregnant woman puffing away.

Just as much as I'd judge her if she was downing shots if tequila at a bar.

The evidence on the harm of very moderate drinking is pretty much non-existent. As for smoking I am less informed on that one. That said though the problem most of us often have when we see a pregnant woman with a cigarette is we simply do not know if that is the 40th one she has had that day or the _only_ one she has had - or will even have - during the course of her entire pregnancy.

And whatever the data on smoking is with regards to pregnancy I strongly doubt there is any evidence at all a _single_ cigarette will do diddly-squat to the resulting child.

So if we are going to "judge" as individual we might want to get the full data set before we do so rather than assume one based on nothing but the situation before our eyes in a given moment?

iamwhoiam

maxsmum wrote: »

I work with a (pretty politically incorrect doctor) and he always says about pregnant women smoking 'theyll get their reward with an ADHD child". I think there's some link there?
I work near a maternity hospital and it's amazing seeing pregnant women outside puffing away without a bother. I felt so sick on my pregnancy that I could barely tolerate toast let alone the smell of smoke!

Is there any link at all for that statement ? Then when I was young many smoked during pregnancy and I certainely didn't see any increase in ADHD back then .Quite the opposite as now it is more common and less women smoke

Frank O. Pinion

It is child abuse. One of the earliest types. Like taking your already overweight child to McDonalds multiple types a week/month. Also child abuse.

You see a lot less pregnant women smoking in America, in public anyways. In Ireland, you see all kinds of pregnant women smoking away, in public. No self-control, "ah sure one a day won't hurt, my Mam smoked with me and I like being 4' 11", etc.

Utter morons.

Sheeps

Sorry I messed up the poll so the results are private, but the current tally is the following.

No - 38
Yes - 6

uncommon_name

Judge away!!

seamus

I look down on all people who smoke, I don't discriminate.

Zorya

Deleted User wrote: »

The evidence on the harm of very moderate drinking is pretty much non-existent. As for smoking I am less informed on that one. That said though the problem most of us often have when we see a pregnant woman with a cigarette is we simply do not know if that is the 40th one she has had that day or the _only_ one she has had - or will even have - during the course of her entire pregnancy.

And whatever the data on smoking is with regards to pregnancy I strongly doubt there is any evidence at all a _single_ cigarette will do diddly-squat to the resulting child.

So if we are going to "judge" as individual we might want to get the full data set before we do so rather than assume one based on nothing but the situation before our eyes in a given moment?

I agree we should not rush to judgement, however if one sees a lady pushing a pushchair and hauling on a fag while pregnant, I think it is safe to assume that it is not her one and only fag of the season, given that she might have liked to make the occasion a bit more special. And it is honestly not a conscious judgement as such, for me anyways, it is a reflex. Fcuk, it just looks rotten. And I say this as the child of a mother who was a champion smoker. I was brought up in the hot box of fag smoke in ford escorts! She would give up for the duration of each pregnancy and then rush off for a fag first thing as soon as we were out. :pac:

Feisar

Zorya wrote: »

Oh dear, it's a terrible thing to do the poor baby. I have seen pregnant women smoke and, let's be honest, it's a nasty sight. In my past I would have enjoyed the odd roll up or three, of an evening with some nice wine, but yikes, never when pregnant. That includes drinking, too. That is some precious cargo you're carrying - don't poison it. Don't do it, kids, it's really not fair.

God I nearly typed "as an expecting father"! The shame!

Regarding your precious cargo comment, realistically it's only precious to the parents and immediate family. At 7.6 billion and counting, individual heard members aren't precious.

Zorya

Feisar wrote: »

.....individual herd members aren't precious..........

Ummmmmmm, I'm just gonna let that pass. Boards sometimes seems to me like the secret headquarters of some anti-natalist cult. Sorry, but I do not subscribe to your newsletter.

Zorya

Zorya wrote: »

I think it is safe to assume

I simply don't do that where possible I am afraid. Just a personal rule I try to stick with.

If I see a person smoking a cigarette the only thing I can assume is that they are smoking _that_ cigarette. Anything else is fantasy on my part without more information.

Day Lewin

Back in the day, people did.
I quit smoking on my first, took it up again, quit again on the last.

One of the in-between babies I did smoke during pregnancy -- shucks, bad old me: so far from ADHD he always had laser concentration, is the brains of the outfit and now a college professor in a highly technical field.

So, yeah: do NOT judge. If you don't like the smell of my smoking, go someplace else where you can't smell it.

I'm long since off them now, anyway: but I don't ever get on that self-righteous hobby horse: this is the most addictive substance known to humans.

PS And babies are beautiful.

Arne_Saknussem

seamus wrote: »

I look down on all people who smoke, I don't discriminate.

I make it my business not to smoke on anyone at any time expect people like this.

wyf437gn6btzue

it takes a low quality person to smoke with a bun in the oven....

suicide_circus

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

It is child abuse. One of the earliest types. Like taking your already overweight child to McDonalds multiple types a week/month. Also child abuse.

You see a lot less pregnant women smoking in America, in public anyways. In Ireland, you see all kinds of pregnant women smoking away, in public. No self-control, "ah sure one a day won't hurt, my Mam smoked with me and I like being 4' 11", etc.

Utter morons.

denying the foetus the rich, mellow and satisfying flavour of the finest Virginia tobacco is child abuse.

partyguinness

Well we shouldn't get too high and mighty about it.

We have already decided that the rights of the unborn is secondary to the rights of the mother so the state has essentially sanctioned the mother can abuse her unborn child all she wants. Hell, the unborn child can be terminated if it is too inconvenient.

Foweva Awone

Sometimes smoking is the lesser evil.

I know many women in addiction who have gotten pregnant and who manage to abstain from alcohol and drugs other than methadone (which generally isn't reduced during pregnancy.) Asking them to give up smoking too, the only thing keeping the edge off, is sometimes a step too far. Particularly when (as in many cases I've encountered) it's a crisis pregnancy, and the woman may have little stability or support.

Don't assume that the woman isn't aware of the dangers of smoking, there is generally a lot of guilt and self-criticism there. But they're often doing their absolute best to at least cut down. When you see a pregnant woman smoking, for all you know that could actually be her only cigarette that day, or that week, and she's probably already internally beating herself up over it.

Compassion costs nothing.

meeeeh

I don't know if it's wrong to judge but it's completely pointless. If people think their tut-ing will make women stop smoking they are delusional. More often than not people judge to make themselves feel superior and for no other reason.

partyguinness

Foweva Awone wrote: »

Don't think the woman isn't aware of the dangers of smoking, there is generally a lot of guilt and self-criticism there. But they're often doing their absolute best to at least cut down. When you see a pregnant woman smoking, for all you know that could actually be her only cigarette that day, or that week, and she's probably already internally beating herself up over it.

Compassion costs nothing.

Compassion costs nothing for a reason. It is pointless.


Let's just give Stella another ciggie to ease her guilt. Not guilty enough to give up mind.


"I know I shouldnt be doing this...but...I just can't resist because I am ignorant, selfish, weak and pathetic. No doubt I'll be a super mother and the 120 inch TV will act as a great surrogate when I'm puffing away in the back garden."

Naydy

I admit I would judge and I'm normally very much a do-what-you-like-as long-as-it-doesn't-hurt-anyone kind of person. That's your child, you should not be so selfish as to choke it on your nasty habit. And I'm pro-choice, not that that matters an iota in this case. When I had my baby, there was a woman on my ward who had had an emergency c-section at 36 and a half weeks due to her baby failing to grow. Baby was born under 4lbs, whisked off to Special Care Unit and she ended up being discharged 5 days later with her baby staying in hospital. The lack of growth was due to heavy smoking while pregnant. She regularly popped out of the ward and came back smelling like a bloody ashtray and she ate the head off a nurse who, very nicely, tried to talk to her about giving up smoking for her next pregnancy or at least cutting down (because apparently her first child had been born considerably underweight also). I dunno, if your child being born pre-term, ill enough to need to go to a special care unit and having to go home without them isn't enough of a wake up call for some people, I don't know what is.

nozzferrahhtoo

partyguinness wrote: »

Well we shouldn't get too high and mighty about it. We have already decided that the rights of the unborn is secondary to the rights of the mother so the state has essentially sanctioned the mother can abuse her unborn child all she wants. Hell, the unborn child can be terminated if it is too inconvenient.

That is a different thing entirely however. I think you are painting a distorted picture of rights and the decisions of the referendum.

The way I would more accurately paint it is that a fetus at, say 12 weeks before which the near totality of terminations by choice occur has no right to life. And hence we have no moral and ethical concern for it's well being, nor should we.

If however we intend to bring a fetus to term and create a fully functional sentient human person this brings with it a moral and ethical onus to the well being and health of that person.

In one scenario we have no sentient agent and never will, because we are terminating it before we will. In the other scenario we have no sentient agent but we fully intend to create one.

To compare them therefore is pretty misleading and disingenuous.

sbsquarepants

One of the most disgusting sights in the whole of Dublin is the drive past the coombe maternity hospital.
Hail, rain or shine there's a little huddle of pregnant skanks in dressing gowns outside the railings smoking their brains out.

Foweva Awone

partyguinness wrote: »

Compassion costs nothing for a reason. It is pointless.


Let's just give Stella another ciggie to ease her guilt. Not guilty enough to give up mind.


"I know I shouldnt be doing this...but...I just can't resist because I am selfish, weak and pathetic. No doubt I'll be a super mother and the 120 inch TV will act as a great surrogate when I'm puffing away in the back garden."

LOL. If like the women I'm referring to, she is abstaining from alcohol and drugs and facing up to the reality of a crisis pregnancy when she could easily just terminate it and go back using, "selfish, weak and pathetic" are NOT words I'd use to describe her. I know women like this; I've lived with and gone through addiction treatment with many women like this. Their strength and resilience is amazing. And the women I know have had healthy babies and are amazing mums. If smoking during pregnancy kept them clean from heroin and crack, they made the right choice for their own individual unique circumstances.

One eyed Jack

Sheeps wrote: »

Came across a debate on twitter recently where by some self proclaimed "woke" individuals were taking issue with other people who were condemn women who smoke whilst pregnant. The same applied for people who smoke around pregnant women. The pro choice line of reasoning was being employed, citing that it was the woman body and therefore her choice what to do with her body, despite every intention to carry the foetus to term, and having long term effects on the child's health.

Given that most people who hold the opinion that it is wrong to judge these women are using the pro-choice argument, but at the same time condemning people who smoke around women, is it not a bit of a hypocrisy given their moral equivalency?

Do you think it's acceptable to scorn people who smoke during or around a pregnancy?

Is it child abuse?

edit: Accidentally made the poll results private, could a mod make the poll results public please?

I’m having a fair bit of difficulty understanding this bit. Do you mean we shouldn’t condemn people who smoke around pregnant women?

Are you suggesting we shouldn’t condemn women who smoke while pregnant?

Of course we should, on both counts. It’s long been established that the chemicals ingested have negative effects on the development of the foetus.

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The evidence on the harm of very moderate drinking is pretty much non-existent. As for smoking I am less informed on that one. That said though the problem most of us often have when we see a pregnant woman with a cigarette is we simply do not know if that is the 40th one she has had that day or the _only_ one she has had - or will even have - during the course of her entire pregnancy.

I'd say theres a good chance if you see someone smoking that you can tell is pregnant by looking at them, it's not going to be their one and only cigarette.

^ There is a chance yes. I never said otherwise. I just say we can not make that assumption for any particular case without better data.

By all means judge people or individuals. Just make sure you check your facts and assumptions before we do it.

Guy:Incognito

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Is there any link at all for that statement ? Then when I was young many smoked during pregnancy and I certainely didn't see any increase in ADHD back then .Quite the opposite as now it is more common and less women smoke

Did you know that in the 70s , not 1 person died of aids. Then , boom, in the 80s it was everywhere.

Now do you reckon that no one actually did die in the 70s or that no one new about aids so it hadn't been diagnosed yet?

Just like more people now are being diagnosed with autism. That doesn't mean loads of autistic people weren't around in the 80s .

Fr_Dougal

What if the women smoking had just given up taking heroin?

Guy:Incognito

sbsquarepants wrote: »

One of the most disgusting sights in the whole of Dublin is the drive past the coombe maternity hospital.
Hail, rain or shine there's a little huddle of pregnant skanks in dressing gowns outside the railings smoking their brains out.

At least the hospital have stopped providing a shelter inside the grounds.

You see people smoking at the door of tallaght hospital too(and I'm sure the rest of the hospitals too) . It's a decent walk to the gate of tallaght hospital so a complete crackdown on smoking on the grounds should at least stop patients smoking.

Zorya

Deleted User wrote: »

^ There is a chance yes. I never said otherwise. I just say we can not make that assumption for any particular case without better data.

By all means judge people or individuals. Just make sure you check your facts and assumptions before we do it.

You know that ''judging'' people is a reflex, evolutionary thing that we do unconsciously, right? It has a protective function. Well, maybe if I get enlightened then I can suspend that part of my instinct that judges everyone helplessly, but until then I am going to unconsciously and yet instantaneously soak in a bazillion bytes of information in the body language of everyone I meet, and presume they are damn well gonna be judging me right back.

partyguinness

Foweva Awone wrote: »

LOL. If like the women I'm referring to, she is abstaining from alcohol and drugs and facing up to the reality of a crisis pregnancy when she could easily just terminate it and go back using, "selfish, weak and pathetic" are NOT words I'd use to describe her. I know women like this; I've lived with and gone through addiction treatment with many women like this. Their strength and resilience is amazing. And the women I know have had healthy babies and are amazing mums. If smoking during pregnancy kept them clean from heroin and crack, they made the right choice for their own individual unique circumstances.

I get what you are saying and I don't mean to crap all over vulnerable woman but I think calling them strong and resilient is inherently contradictory. If they were that strong and resilient than they would not find themselves a) addicted to crack/heroin whatever b) addicted to smoking and perhaps alcohol c) in a crisis pregnancy.

They had the wherewithal strength and resilience to find a fix when needed and get pregnant but when it comes to giving up smoking for example they are suddenly not strong enough to go that extra step as it too much. Ok.

Blame everything and everyone else with all the usual background sob stories. Where is the personal responsibility? They have a choice.

I have zero sympathy (except for the unborn fetus) and we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

s7ryf3925pivug

Of course not it's vile

norabattie

20 years ago when I got pregnant , one of the top doctors in Cork told me to cut down , but not to give up as it would cause more stress on the baby and me. So I smoked through both my pregnancies. There was less stigma back then too I guess.
Anyway my son was 8 lb 14 and my daughter was 7 lb 15.
Both nearly 6 foot tall now, healthy as horses with no side effects. Was I lucky - maybe.
But I don't think anyone has a right to judge in my opinion.

Zorya

Zorya wrote: »

You know that ''judging'' people is a reflex, evolutionary thing that we do unconsciously, right? It has a protective function.

As is the _initial_ rise of any thought or emotion into consciousness. But then consciousness takes over and we can decide what to do with it.

So in this specific situation that the thread is about - if I see a woman smoking who is pregnant my _initial_ moves towards judgement are one thing. At which point my consciousness takes over and tells me I have _zero_ idea of the full picture and it has nothing to do with me and my judgements are based on data I do not have or am simply assuming.

So I give myself a dose of "get over myself" and I move on.

Anecdote time - I myself saw a woman screamed at from a passing car window for smoking while pregnant. The woman in question was actually _holding_ one for someone who just ran in quickly to buy a news paper. The assumptions were strong with that one.

Gimme A Pound

Day Lewin wrote: »

Back in the day, people did.
I quit smoking on my first, took it up again, quit again on the last.

One of the in-between babies I did smoke during pregnancy -- shucks, bad old me: so far from ADHD he always had laser concentration, is the brains of the outfit and now a college professor in a highly technical field.

So, yeah: do NOT judge. If you don't like the smell of my smoking, go someplace else where you can't smell it.

I'm long since off them now, anyway: but I don't ever get on that self-righteous hobby horse: this is the most addictive substance known to humans.

PS And babies are beautiful.

Did someone say babies aren't beautiful?

But anyway, people can and will judge. People judge all the time (including those who think they don't). And the smoker should be the one to move away, not the non smoker who doesn't like the smell (and is concerned about their health more to the point).

I don't know what the defensiveness is about. Being critical of pregnant women smoking is not an unreasonable stance.

is_that_so

norabattie wrote: »

20 years ago when I got pregnant , one of the top doctors in Cork told me to cut down , but not to give up as it would cause more stress on the baby and me. So I smoked through both my pregnancies. There was less stigma back then too I guess.
Anyway my son was 8 lb 14 and my daughter was 7 lb 15.
Both nearly 6 foot tall now, healthy as horses with no side effects. Was I lucky - maybe.
But I don't think anyone has a right to judge in my opinion.

Had a flatmate once, who was in the same boat. The doctor got her down to 7 a day on the same grounds. Her kids turned out fine. People will judge regardless but the only ones who should have any input are family and medical professionals.

partyguinness

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You're pregnant, how dare you.
And that guy over there is smoking, meh.

Slight difference being is that the unborn fetus is not getting any choice.

partyguinness

is_that_so wrote: »

Had a flatmate once, who was in the same boat. The doctor got her down to 7 a day on the same grounds. Her kids turned out fine. People will judge regardless but the only ones who should have any input are family and medical professionals.

Ah sure Jaysus. What's all the fuss about then?

Why don't they just prescribe smoking for all pregnant women in that case...:rolleyes:

Loveinapril

I judge the pregnant women who congregate outside the entrance to the Rotunda smoking while I am attending appointments. I am pregnant on my second child and have a health condition that means more frequent visits to the hospital than normal. It infuriates me to have to walk through 10-15 people (usually all visibly pregnant women in dressing gowns) smoking at the door when I am attending appointments. Fair enough if they are choosing to put themselves and their babies at risk but there is no consideration for other pregnant women/ babies.

is_that_so

partyguinness wrote: »

Ah sure Jaysus. What's all the fuss about then?

Why don't they just prescribe smoking for all pregnant women in that case...:rolleyes:

A self-righteous expert. We certainly need more of those. It's really not an ideal situation but may be the only compromise.