Landlord changed locks, stuff inside

cuddlepunk

Hi, just looking for advice for a family member. They were in the process of being evicted for not paying rent, landlord wouldn't accept HAP and all that, they were waiting on a court order to instruct them to leave. Before they got any order, the landlord changed the locks and they can't get back in to get their stuff, which includes medication and everything belonging to their baby. The most worrying part is that they don't know if the Landlord let their cat out, if not the poor thing is locked into the house. They went to the guards and they won't even check if the cat is in there, everything else can be replaced. The guards told them they can't break in or they will be charged. What can they do?

Victor

See a solicitor first thing in the morning - FLAC or Threshold may be able to help.

Who2

Maybe they should pay their rent next time.

cuddlepunk

Who2 wrote: »

Maybe they should pay their rent next time.

So the cat should be let die because they didn't pay their rent...cop on.

Who2

cuddlepunk wrote: »

So the cat should be let die because they didn't pay their rent...cop on.

So the landlord should be stuck because “ they can get away with it” stop trying to play up to emotions and let them accept responsibility.

Teyla Emmagan

Break a window so the cat can get out.

Black_Knight

Ask the landlord did he let the cat out. Groundbreaking stuff I know

cuddlepunk

Black_Knight wrote: »

Ask the landlord did he let the cat out. Groundbreaking stuff I know

They did, and the guards rang him and asked, he insisted he didn't change locks and hung up on both.

Grumpypants

cuddlepunk wrote: »

They did, and the guards rang him and asked, he insisted he didn't change locks and hung up on both.

It's hard for your family member to act indignant when they are not paying rent. The landlord is prob being bankrupted by them. Try paying the arrears and that should solve the missing key mystery.

But the eviction process was wrongly done. In that case ring him and say the locks are broken and he needs to call an emergency locksmith so they can gain access to their home.

If he hangs up ring one to get access. Replace the locks, get a spare for the landlord and tel him he can collect it any time then bill them for it.

tedpan

cuddlepunk wrote:

So the cat should be let die because they didn't pay their rent...cop on.

Poor cat having to live with people like that..

Tipsy McSwagger

Grumpypants wrote: »

It's hard for your family member to act indignant when they are not paying rent. The landlord is prob being bankrupted by them. Try paying the arrears and that should solve the missing key mystery.

But the eviction process was wrongly done. In that case ring him and say the locks are broken and he needs to call an emergency locksmith so they can gain access to their home.

If he hangs up ring one to get access. Replace the locks, get a spare for the landlord and tel him he can collect it any time then bill them for it.

And whose going to pay for the rent dodgers to replace the locks?

AndrewJRenko

The good news for your family is that this will probably cost the landlord thousands in compensation.

Get legal advice.

Grumpypants

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

And whose going to pay for the rent dodgers to replace the locks?

Rodger Dodger pays the locksmith, they should have plenty of money as they haven't been paying any rent.

Then they bill the landlord to get it back.

splinter65

As soon as they arrange to meet the landlord today to hand over the arrears then I’m sure he’ll let them in to get their stuff and their cat.
He doesn’t want the cat or the stuff either but you can’t live in someone else’s property and not pay and not engage with them.

Graham

Mod Note

Up the standard of posting.

Day Lewin

You know what...we cannot possibly know the circumstances which led to this family being unable to pay their rent.
Sudden unemployment?
Maybe one of them has an addiction problem?
IN any case they had a baby, a cat, and personal property. The landlord may well feel aggrieved that the rent was not paid and he does have rights, and a legal process available to him.
Causing distress to a homeless family is not part of that process.
There is a right way to go about such things and this wasn't it.

OP, I hope your friends find a place and that their possessions and cat are recovered ok.
Naturally, I hope they can pay the rent in the next place, too.

cuddlepunk

My family member was refused Hap by the landlord, a week after they moved in, even though he said they could get it when they paid deposit etc, for some reason he couldn't complete the paperwork. They paid what they would have been paying if they received Hap each week, because that's all they allowed for, but they didn't have rent book or bank receipts, they had to hand it into a friend of his . They are young and naive and caught in a spiral that went out of control. Thank you very much to all that gave genuine replies, to the rest of you, you pass judgement on people and a situation that you know nothing about of except a few lines I wrote above. You know nothing about my views on the situation. It must be great never to have put a foot wrong in your lives, hope you don't fall off those moral high horses.

myshirt

Day Lewin wrote: »

You know what...we cannot possibly know the circumstances which led to this family being unable to pay their rent.
Sudden unemployment?
Maybe one of them has an addiction problem?
IN any case they had a baby, a cat, and personal property. The landlord may well feel aggrieved that the rent was not paid and he does have rights, and a legal process available to him.
Causing distress to a homeless family is not part of that process.
There is a right way to go about such things and this wasn't it.

OP, I hope your friends find a place and that their possessions and cat are recovered ok.
Naturally, I hope they can pay the rent in the next place, too.

It absolutely does not matter what the circumstances were. This is not a charity arrangement. The right response is never to transfer your problems on to the back of another person. You'd swear landlords were smoking cigars, eating lobster, and getting the money for free. Acts like this have a real effect on people and their families. Would the over holding family be as quick to in the future to randomly hand over 10 grand cash to just anyone? You seem to have a difficulty realising that you are transferring your problem onto the back of another family.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

It absolutely does not matter what the circumstances were. This is not a charity arrangement. The right response is never to transfer your problems on to the back of another person. You'd swear landlords were smoking cigars, eating lobster, and getting the money for free. Acts like this have a real effect on people and their families. Would the over holding family be as quick to in the future to randomly hand over 10 grand cash to just anyone? You seem to have a difficulty realising that you are transferring your problem onto the back of another family.

To be fair, from what the op has posted the rental arrears is a direct result of the LL’s wrong, and illegal refusal to accept HAP. I have no sympathy for this LL.

Old diesel

Dav010 wrote: »

To be fair, from what the op has posted the rental arrears is a direct result of the LL’s wrong, and illegal refusal to accept HAP. I have no sympathy for this LL.

THIS.

If you are going to turn down HAP and willing to take the consequences for that - do it BEFORE someone takes on a lease in good faith.

Who2

Who2 wrote: »

Maybe they should pay their rent next time.

Maybe the LL should obey the rules/law, there is a process for eviction and they have far from followed it.

"landlord wouldn't accept HAP and all that" is damning, yet all so common.

Old diesel

Yes HAP does need changes - but a sensible person with cop on should realise that......

1) if your tenant is looking for HAP then the assumption should be they can't pay or would struggle to pay market rent.

2) so telling them you won't do HAP or dragging your feet on it likely means you don't get paid your rent or at least not in full.

3) taking on someone on HAP knowing YOU won't be taking it in the end and knowing you will likely be evicting because of the likely rent default is actually WORSE then just refusing it straight out at the start.

FishOnABike

It would be interesting to see how this would pan out in a court. The tenant has not paid the rent they are due to pay and has been illegally evicted as a result.

The RTB has taken a very dim view of illegal evictions and has awarded tenants significant damages in the past for illegal evictions.

The LL should be paid the rent for the property but has failed to mitigate their losses by refusing to accept HAP. It could be argued that the LL is the author of their own misfortune as they appear to have been informed in advance of accepting the tenancy that the tenant would be relying in HAP to support their tenancy.

As it stands can the tenant re-enter the house if they are able to do so without causing any damage e.g. by having a locksmith replace the door lock?

3DataModem

If you are still (technically) resident there, then simply change the locks again. This is perfectly legal and any locksmith will do this for you.

Arthur Daley

Quick call to the DSPCA or equivalent on how to take care of the cat. If the landlord fancies putting himself on offer for animal cruelty, there are ways and means to deal with him.

Cuddlesworth

cuddlepunk wrote: »

Hi, just looking for advice for a family member. They were in the process of being evicted for not paying rent, landlord wouldn't accept HAP and all that, they were waiting on a court order to instruct them to leave. Before they got any order, the landlord changed the locks and they can't get back in to get their stuff, which includes medication and everything belonging to their baby. The most worrying part is that they don't know if the Landlord let their cat out, if not the poor thing is locked into the house. They went to the guards and they won't even check if the cat is in there, everything else can be replaced. The guards told them they can't break in or they will be charged. What can they do?

Four major points.

1st - They are legally allowed to gain re-entry to the the property. Either by locksmith or just breaking back in. Guards will do nothing either way, its a civil dispute. If the landlord gets aggressive, guards can be called to remove him.

2nd - They should be documenting everything. Phone calls should be recorded. Everything should be written down, times and dates, what was done, what it cost them etc.

3rd - A case should be lodged with the WRC for the refusal of the HAP payments. All of the other actions by the landlord are relevant, the illegal eviction, aggression etc. If they have proof that he outright refused HAP, even better. This process is separate to the RTB.

4th - Refusal of HAP, illegal eviction and any further actions by the landlord mean its pretty likely they will end up bankrupt at the end of this if your family member is careful about documentation.

CPTM

I'm surprised no one has asked about the landlord's comment that he didn't change the locks. If this goes to court, how can that be resolved? What if they are a landlord who hasn't received rent, has tried to get a court order, and in order to disrupt that process, the tenants have changed the locks or have told the guards that the locks have been changed when in actual fact the landlord has done nothing? That would be a messy situation to get through.

goldfinches

they can move to your home and live with you. you are so kind, can provide everything they need. happy ending!

goldfinches

goldfinches wrote: »

they can move to your home and live with you. you are so kind, can provide everything they need. happy ending!

Landlord is refusing HAP

SortingYouOut

Force entry if the landlord won't let you in, they might think twice about doing that again and being such a **** about it.

Browney7

I see the high horse brigade are in full flight here...

People can gripe and moan about HAP all they like regarding inspections but there looks to be a lot going on here that doesn't make sense and there's a lot of contributory factors as to why this tenancy arrangement is in the toilet.

If the landlord is refusing HAP, he is in breach of the equal status act and the WRC adjudicate on this.

OP, has the RTB issued determinations in this case yet or what is going on? Or has the landlord just changed the locks?

1874

cuddlepunk wrote: »

My family member was refused Hap by the landlord, a week after they moved in, even though he said they could get it when they paid deposit etc, for some reason he couldn't complete the paperwork. They paid what they would have been paying if they received Hap each week, because that's all they allowed for, but they didn't have rent book or bank receipts, they had to hand it into a friend of his . They are young and naive and caught in a spiral that went out of control. Thank you very much to all that gave genuine replies, to the rest of you, you pass judgement on people and a situation that you know nothing about of except a few lines I wrote above. You know nothing about my views on the situation. It must be great never to have put a foot wrong in your lives, hope you don't fall off those moral high horses.

Ok, so the landord agreed to it? but they are only paying an amount equal to what they would get under HAP, is this the rent that was asked for/agreed to? if the HAP amount is less, then the landlord said they'd agree to it? correct? so he hasnt refused HAP by the sounds of it, but they seem to be refusing the amount you are paying? so are they paying the full agreed amount? when you say they are paying what HAP would pay, that doesnt mean thats what the asking rent is,

A landlord can say they wont refuse HAP but if the rent is above the HAP limits, then there is no way the a tenant can rent it, a bit of a catch 22 situation.


Im not sure how it goes if someone is already in, if the landlord says they will accept HAP (they have no choice) but if HAP is less than market rate, do they have to accept it? I think not, they could insist HAP is equal to market rate, as that is unlikely to happen, then surely the tenancy is on its last legs?

Dav010 wrote: »

To be fair, from what the op has posted the rental arrears is a direct result of the LL’s wrong, and illegal refusal to accept HAP. I have no sympathy for this LL.

From what it seems the landlord didnt refuse HAP, the poster said she/he accepted it, but they have no right to refuse, its illegal, it sounds like the landlord frustrated the application by not filling in the paperwork, but if the tenant is paying the HAP amount and not the asking market rate, that tenancy seems to be in breach already, if they are just in the door (less than 6 months), they wouldnt have rights under part 4.

Browney7

@1874, My reading of it is the tenants have paid the shortfall between what HAP will pay and what the tenancy amount is - ie rent 1200, HAP 1000, tenants paying 200. All second hand information here though so hard to know what's actually going on

GGTrek

If the landlord has an RTB determination order saying that the tenants had to leave by a certain date and they didn't, then the tenants are screwed. The only way to get back possession it is to pay some serious money to a solicitor for an injunction and if contested they will have to give solid proof on why they did not pay rent. RTB has no power to give back possession and even w.r.t. compensation they will not look kindly at tenants who don't pay rent, don't respect a determination order and just sit tight.

bluetractor

Here's a post on another thread by the OP

"A friend of mine, her partner and 1 year old, have had an rtb ruling back that they have to vacate the house they are in within 2 weeks"

So before people jump down the necks of landlords, there's always another story and its very rare for tenants or people connected with tenants to give the correct story and then they get wrong advice.

So the REAL store is the rtb adjudicated and the tenants were due to be out by early jan. They STILL refused to move.

The landlord is 100% in the right legally to do what he did. Morally is nother story, legally the landlord followed the rulebook to the letter

cuddlepunk

Browney7 wrote: »

@1874, My reading of it is the tenants have paid the shortfall between what HAP will pay and what the tenancy amount is - ie rent 1200, HAP 1000, tenants paying 200. All second hand information here though so hard to know what's actually going on

That's exactly it, he agreed verbally to Hap, they gave him the forms and he then told them he couldn't provide what was needed for it to go through.

GGTrek

Wait a second are these the people who got kicked out? From the OP old thread about emergency accommodation:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057937017
"A friend of mine, her partner and 1 year old, have had an rtb ruling back that they have to vacate the house they are in within 2 weeks, any place they look for on daft etc won't accept babies/toddlers. They live in Clare. They will have to enter emergency accommodation but they have no idea how this works. What kind can you get? How does it get paid? Is there a limit? can advise or help would be much appreciated. Thank you."

Then they are definitely screwed and the landlord did what he could to limit his losses on the scroungers against the sh..y Irish legal system. I feel no compassion at all on the OP and his friends who have a very distorted view of reality. What makes me more angry are the do-gooders brigade who usually appear on this forum in cases like this who are indefensible.

GGTrek

bluetractor wrote: »

Here's a post on another thread by the OP

"A friend of mine, her partner and 1 year old, have had an rtb ruling back that they have to vacate the house they are in within 2 weeks"

So before people jump down the necks of landlords, there's always another story and its very rare for tenants or people connected with tenants to give the correct story and then they get wrong advice.

So the REAL store is the rtb adjudicated and the tenants were due to be out by early jan. They STILL refused to move.

The landlord is 100% in the right legally to do what he did. Morally is nother story, legally the landlord followed the rulebook to the letter

The OP and his friend have no shame coming to this forum asking for advice. They should go to the council instead and ask for emergency accommodation.

cuddlepunk

goldfinches wrote: »

they can move to your home and live with you. you are so kind, can provide everything they need. happy ending!

If it didn't effect my daughter who suffers from a serious mental illness I would have them live with no problem. The stress of too many people around sets her back recovery wise.

Is it the same people from that found post OP?

cuddlepunk

GGTrek wrote: »

The OP and his friend have no shame coming to this forum asking for advice. They should go to the council instead and ask for emergency accommodation.

Legally the landlord needed an enforcement order.

Cuddlesworth

bluetractor wrote: »

Here's a post on another thread by the OP

"A friend of mine, her partner and 1 year old, have had an rtb ruling back that they have to vacate the house they are in within 2 weeks"

So before people jump down the necks of landlords, there's always another story and its very rare for tenants or people connected with tenants to give the correct story and then they get wrong advice.

So the REAL store is the rtb adjudicated and the tenants were due to be out by early jan. They STILL refused to move.

The landlord is 100% in the right legally to do what he did. Morally is nother story, legally the landlord followed the rulebook to the letter

No, this is wrong. The RTB adjudication is pretty much just a recommendation to the courts. It carry's no right to evict, the landlord has to get a actual court order for that and only the sheriff is capable of actual evictions.

GGTrek

cuddlepunk wrote: »

Legally the landlord needed an enforcement order.

Well now your friends can deal with the Irish legal system rowing against them since they did not respect a determination order.

tretorn

What about the landlords mental health having to deal with this crap.

cuddlepunk

Just so we are all clear...I pay my rent, I have rented my home for over 12 years and I'm on great terms with my landlord....I was doing a family member a favor by asking advice because they're family. Thanks to everyone that was civil.

cuddlepunk

cuddlepunk wrote: »

...I was doing a family member a favor by asking advice because they're family. Thanks to everyone that was civil.

You completely misrepresented the situation your friend is in n to blame the LL. If these are the same people as your previous posts, then there is a very different backstory than just the LL suddenly changing the locks.

Browney7

cuddlepunk wrote: »

Just so we are all clear...I pay my rent, I have rented my home for over 12 years and I'm on great terms with my landlord....I was doing a family member a favor by asking advice because they're family. Thanks to everyone that was civil.

Your friend/family member was in breach of the tenancy and in rent arrears as the landlord wouldn't accept HAP. Whatever the reasons for this are, we don't know and it's likely you aren't being told the whole story either.

This all seems very strange and if your family member was upfront and said, "we will be availing of the HAP scheme" and the landlord still offered them the place but then manufactured a rent arrears situation by refusing to sign forms or facilitate the arrangement they need to use the appropriate avenue to remedy this which is the WRC (it's possible the house isn't HAP compliant or other personal circumstances are at play making the LL unwilling to accept HAP).

If he didn't want to accept HAP you would think he just wouldn't offer them the place in the first instance instead of creating this sh1tstorm so I'm guessing they entered into the rental agreement and then dropped the HAP line?

Are you getting the full story from the family member?

Bob24

CPTM wrote: »

I'm surprised no one has asked about the landlord's comment that he didn't change the locks. If this goes to court, how can that be resolved? What if they are a landlord who hasn't received rent, has tried to get a court order, and in order to disrupt that process, the tenants have changed the locks or have told the guards that the locks have been changed when in actual fact the landlord has done nothing? That would be a messy situation to get through.

Fair point. Someone is clearly lying but there is no way to know whom.

cuddlepunk

TBH, I was trying to be helpful and find a way of getting the cat out legally, as I didn't want to think of it suffering. Like I said in a previous post the stuff is replaceable. From what I gather the landlord was unable to provide the tax clearance cert, he didn't realize at first he'd have to provide one for HAP.

cuddlepunk

I made it clear in my first post they were " waiting on a court order to instruct them to leave" which is a step after rtb determination order so I can't really see how I misrepresented.

Anthonylfc

Who2 wrote: »

Maybe they should pay their rent next time.

love it