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€700 million a year given to private landlords.

  • 24-02-2019 2:06pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭


    An accusation levelled against Fine Gael many times over the years was that the housing crisis was deliberately and cynically manufactured in order to allow them to justify the massive transfer of taxpayer money to the already wealthy. The investment funds, the pension funds, the landlords.

    Figures obtained by Sinn Féin’s Eoin Ó Broin show that in total, €695,346,000 was given to private landlords in 2018.

    “This is a massive transfer of public money to private landlords,” said Ó Broin.

    Another intended consequence of this ideologicaly driven wealth transfer is spiraling rents. At the same time as these massive sums are being paid annually no affordable homes and tiny numbers of social homes are being provided.


«13

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Eoin can level all the accusations he wants against FG but the housing market has been a long running 30+ year rollercoaster/carcrash/sh*tshow and we're not short of opposition politicians with simple solutions for fixing it.

    It's going to be interesting when he finally gets into government to see how he fixes the rental crisis by cracking down hard on landlords.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭sk8board


    Oh please.
    ‘Transfer of money to the already wealthy’.

    1. In 2012 the government decided that us private landlords would provide the solution to the social housing shortage, while they couldn’t afford to build, thus arrived the HAP scheme.

    2. the money is only a portion of the rent, paid for a small portion of the 335,000 registered tenancies.

    3. And finally, what % of the €700m is repaid in income tax?

    Sunday socialism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Sinn Fein are talking out of both sides of their mouth, how many SF controlled County Councils have reduced the LPT each year?

    That money could be used to house the homeless, but typical of SF to shout from the sidelines rather than take measures to fix an issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,597 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    what about all the money that landlords pay out in insurance, tax, maintanance, legal fees, painting, electrical apliances, morgages, etc etc. look at all the employment spin off from it

    its not like all the moey goes into their pocket and is never spent again. most landlords are average local people that spend their money locally


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Indeed. So, Working people should provide their goods and services for free, and never be paid at all at all...? Is that what they want?

    Or, government provided slums.

    Both cool options.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    HAP is supposed to be (or should be) temporary until the person in receipt gets a job where they can afford a mortgage.

    Social housing is free housing for life, where you ring the council if a lightbuib goes.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How about the multi millions given to homeless charities every year? The vast majority of which goes on wages.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu



    its not like all the moey goes into their pocket and is never spent again. most landlords are average local people that spend their money locally

    I assure you that if FG gave me €15,000 a year I would also spend it locally.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Magnatu wrote: »
    I assure you that if FG gave me €15,000 a year I would also spend it locally.

    They'd have about half of it back in tax for a start! :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Magnatu wrote: »
    I assure you that if FG gave me €15,000 a year I would also spend it locally.

    What service do you provide?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    How about the multi millions given to homeless charities every year? The vast majority of which goes on wages.

    Like landlords, homeless charities have a vested interest in ensuring that the "housing crisis" continues. Like landlords there employes are doing very well financially out of it. Same for the hotel owners.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Magnatu wrote: »
    Like landlords, homeless charities have a vested interest in ensuring that the "housing crisis" continues. Like landlords there employes are doing very well financially out of it. Same for the hotel owners.

    You are assuming malice and even some level of power here that doesn’t exist.

    How is somebody, who owns one, or even two or three properties for decades... leasing it out day in day out no matter how the market goes, supposed to be controlling the housing market exactly? Landlords don’t build property. They don’t own swathes of land. They don’t rezone, they don’t have anything to do with planning permission. They don’t control either demand, or supply... bar their one unit.

    This is like saying corner shop owners control the growing of bananas because they sell them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    pwurple wrote: »
    This is like saying corner shop owners control the growing of bananas because they sell them.

    But if govt deliberately restricted the supply of bananas and then paid shopkeepers €5 per banana it would increase the price of bananas for everyone and make shopkeepers wealthy.

    By the way most of this money is going to institutional landlords with large property portfolio or investment funds. Only a very small proportion of it goies to amateur landlords with a few properties.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Magnatu wrote: »
    An accusation levelled against Fine Gael many times over the years was that the housing crisis was deliberately and cynically manufactured in order to allow them to justify the massive transfer of taxpayer money to the already wealthy. The investment funds, the pension funds, the landlords.

    Figures obtained by Sinn Féin’s Eoin Ó Broin show that in total, €695,346,000 was given to private landlords in 2018.

    “This is a massive transfer of public money to private landlords,” said Ó Broin.

    Another intended consequence of this ideologicaly driven wealth transfer is spiraling rents. At the same time as these massive sums are being paid annually no affordable homes and tiny numbers of social homes are being provided.
    Maybe he could get Gerry "3 houses" to rent two of them out ar reasonable rent?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Magnatu wrote: »
    By the way most of this money is going to institutional landlords with large property portfolio or investment funds. Only a very small proportion of it goies to amateur landlords with a few properties.

    Where are you getting this from? AFAIR, large institutional landlords own a tiny % of total rental stock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 932 ✭✭✭Get Real


    It's a ridiculous situation that we have alright. But I don't see your point.

    Other solution short term is to not pay the 700million. Would you be complaining then that that's also a disgrace and leaves families on the streets?

    It's all well and good complaining, but reallistically, there's no quick fix.

    84% of landlords own two or fewer homes. (Their own one plus an extra one)

    The idea that there's some big conspiracy by these giant landlords to maintain the current market doesn't add up when most landlords are average joes.

    Only 16% percent make enough to cover their mortgage and make a profit.

    Source: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/research/

    Scroll down to Future of Private rental sector. Big report there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Where are you getting this from? AFAIR, large institutional landlords own a tiny % of total rental stock.

    As one example company called Iris Reit recently announced profits of €19 million for last year from State transfers. Most of this came from direct payments from the taxpayer using the HAP scheme.
    A solidarity councilor described the payments as
    " Corporate welfare in an industrial scale"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    This money could be used, along with rental payments to councils, to pay for loans taken out to build social housing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Magnatu wrote: »
    As one example company called Iris Reit recently announced profits of €19 million for last year from State transfers. Most of this came from direct payments from the taxpayer using the HAP scheme.
    A solidarity councilor described the payments as
    " Corporate welfare in an industrial scale"

    Still a tiny percentage though.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    Get Real wrote: »
    Other solution short term is to not pay the 700million. Would you be complaining then that that's also a disgrace and leaves families on the streets?
    .
    Would it though. Suppose you stopped the €700 million in annual transfers in the morning what would happen. Rents would collapse. Give private landlords €300million a year in direct means tested dole payments to compensate them. Give €200 million a year extra to those on social welfare. And use €200 million to build social housing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,445 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Love the amount of people that go attacking the Sinn Fein guy here for giving us figures.
    Bit it of an agenda maybe?
    I don't support any party, voted independent in the last election. I'm certainly not a fan of Sinn Fein, I'd vote for almost all other parties ahead of them.
    Still though, the subject deserves discussion. Attacking the man giving the information in moving away from the issue.
    I think it's disgraceful. We have to figure out a solution. There should be a cap on rent I think. We have to build houses now, not tomorrow or next month because that's just passing the buck.
    In all fairness this is a huge issue, second only to the health service imo.
    I think governments should be voted out if they are not sorting it out.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Magnatu, you would have a much more compelling point if most landlords actually wanted to accept state subsidised rent payments.

    The reality is so many landlords were actively avoiding it, legislation was introduced to force landlords to take it!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    Graham wrote: »
    egislation was introduced to force landlords to take it!

    Ah. So ye don't really want the €700 million..


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Magnatu wrote: »
    Ah. So ye don't really want the €700 million..

    Nobody is offering me €700million.

    I tell you what would happen if Government announced the end of compulsory HAP etc. A collective TFFT from most private landlords.

    Naturally, Government would then have to work out how to house tens of thousands of people in a hurry and general taxation would have to increase to pay for new housing without completely shafting state borrowing.

    Inconvenient details for those writing theoretical political cheques safe in the knowledge they are never likely to find themselves in a position where they'll have to explain why they can't honour them.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Magnatu wrote: »
    Ah. So ye don't really want the €700 million..

    They don't. There are plenty of good tenants out there without needing hap for most landlords.

    Legislation was brought in to prevent LLs refusing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    What about professional landlords? I'm talking about REITs. Buying up blocks of apartments, so ordinary folks can't live in their own local, without renting. When I see this, I picture... Herd of cows, waiting to be milked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    What about professional landlords? I'm talking about REITs. Buying up blocks of apartments, so ordinary folks can't live in their own local, without renting. When I see this, I picture... Herd of cows, waiting to be milked.

    There’s a fair amount of populism about REIT. They are no more stopping people buying than private landlords.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    There’s a fair amount of populism about REIT. They are no more stopping people buying than private landlords.


    I disagree there. There are very few LL's able to buy entire blocks. At least where there is a general release, even if it is off the plans, Joe public are in with a chance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭thereality


    Magnatu wrote: »
    But if govt deliberately restricted the supply of bananas and then paid shopkeepers €5 per banana it would increase the price of bananas for everyone and make shopkeepers wealthy.

    The Government basically handed properties to low-income tenants for a song. They did not replace this housing. There was a recession, which meant Government could not build social housing if it wanted.

    Social housing in this country is a disaster due to decades of mismanagement. The councils have no desire in fixing it either.

    Magnatu wrote: »
    By the way most of this money is going to institutional landlords with large property portfolio or investment funds. Only a very small proportion of it goies to amateur landlords with a few properties.

    Not the case at all. IRES, Kennedy Wilson, Hibernia REIT with their luxury housing is not aiming to house low income tenants. Until very recently, they had minimal HAP tenants. Also until Kennedy Wilson bought some apartments in Cork last year, there were no REIT investments in residential housing outside of Dublin. Most tenants on HAP etc are dealing with small time landlords.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 128 ✭✭nostro


    thereality wrote: »
    The Government basically handed properties to low-income tenants for a song. They did not replace this housing. There was a recession, which meant Government could not build social housing if it wanted.

    Social housing in this country is a disaster due to decades of mismanagement. The councils have no desire in fixing it either.

    .

    Social housing worked for generations. An ideological decision was made by FG to effectively end it. Now we have the intended consequences of that policy.
    A "housing crisis" homelessness, vast sums of money being transferred to private landlords and hotels, skyrocketing rents for low paid workers.
    This was all very foreseeable and is intended.
    And although there are losers there are a lot of people that have become very wealthy from this policy.
    The charity industries, the institution investors, REITS who buy up blocks of apartments on the promise of the HAP millions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    nostro wrote: »
    Social housing worked for generations. An ideological decision was made by FG to effectively end it. Now we have the intended consequences of that policy.
    A "housing crisis" homelessness, vast sums of money being transferred to private landlords and hotels, skyrocketing rents for low paid workers.
    This was all very foreseeable and is intended.
    And although there are losers there are a lot of people that have become very wealthy from this policy.
    The charity industries, the institution investors, REITS who buy up blocks of apartments on the promise of the HAP millions.

    Decisions on social housing were made long before FG got into government.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    garhjw wrote: »
    Decisions on social housing were made long before FG got into government.

    When did FG get into government?


    In 1975, local authorities built 8,794 social housing units,

    In 2007, the local authorities built 4,986 homes. This number fell to 4,905 in 2008.

    Then there was a drop to 3,362 in 2009 and another decrease of 2,000 units to 1,328 in 2010.

    There were just 486 units built in 2011, 363 houses in 2012, 293 in 2013, 158 in 2014, and just 75 in 2015.

    Be aware as well that the policy to stop providing social housing coincided with the state getting significant numbers of housing units through NAMA.

    They gave these away for half nothing to vulture funds and developers and instead began dramatically increasing state transfers to private landlords.

    HAP payments to landlords have increased by €276,600,000 a year under FG.

    This was an ideological policy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Magnatu wrote: »
    When did FG get into government?


    In 1975, local authorities built 8,794 social housing units,

    In 2007, the local authorities built 4,986 homes. This number fell to 4,905 in 2008.

    Then there was a drop to 3,362 in 2009 and another decrease of 2,000 units to 1,328 in 2010.

    There were just 486 units built in 2011, 363 houses in 2012, 293 in 2013, 158 in 2014, and just 75 in 2015.

    Be aware as well that the policy to stop providing social housing coincided with the state getting significant numbers of housing units through NAMA.

    They gave these away for half nothing to vulture funds and developers and instead began dramatically increasing state transfers to private landlords.

    HAP payments to landlords have increased by €276,600,000 a year under FG.

    This was an ideological policy.

    So the decline in the number of houses built had started well before FG got into government.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Maybe they stopped building because there were a lot of spare housing and they needed the money to keep hospitals open in the depths of a recession?

    The government at that point had advice that there was plenty of housing and that would there would be a surplus for years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Magnatu


    Maybe they stopped building because there were a lot of spare housing and they needed the money to keep hospitals open in the depths of a recession?

    The government at that point had advice that there was plenty of housing and that would there would be a surplus for years.

    You are completely missing the point. It was ideological.
    There were large numbers of empty houses and NAMA had significant stocks which it offered to the government for social housing. FG rejected the offer.
    They decided to stop providing social housing at the exact time that tens of thousands of housing units were available to them. Instead they started to dramatically and significantly increase financial transfers to private landlords.

    This policy only makes any sense if you understand the ideological basis for it.
    Which they are resisting changing despite enormous pressure.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    It is hard to justify spending 700m a year on private sector housing- given how constrained our finances are (even now).
    This 700m though- is being forced on the private housing sector- when the actual issue is a lack of supply (across the board in both the rental and all other residential property sectors).
    We need to build more homes- we need to revisit our social housing obligations (in light of the fact that we are now being forced to enumerate the expenditure as part of government expenditure)- and we need to get over our hangup with building local authority and council estates- and get them up and running- and people out of private rental accommodation and into social housing units.
    If this means private rental units are vacant- rents will fall- which will benefit all tenants- until such a stage as a new equilibrium is met- or the landlord sells the unit.

    The current situation is farcical- however, its a situation of the government's making- and not one that suits tenants or landlords- both of whom hate it.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Magnatu wrote: »
    You are completely missing the point. It was ideological.
    There were large numbers of empty houses and NAMA had significant stocks which it offered to the government for social housing. FG rejected the offer.
    They decided to stop providing social housing at the exact time that tens of thousands of housing units were available to them. Instead they started to dramatically and significantly increase financial transfers to private landlords.

    This policy only makes any sense if you understand the ideological basis for it.
    Which they are resisting changing despite enormous pressure.

    The large numbers of empty houses were based on the premise of the census denoting properties as vacant at census time. A list of addresses were forwarded to the local authority for investigation by the CSO (on the instruction of the Minister)- which when investigated in DCC (for example) showed a total of fewer than 12% of those properties denoted by the CSO as vacant residential units- to be vacant. There was much discourse as to why people would pretend their homes were vacant- and a myriad of reasons put forward- however, the fact of the matter is- those tens of thousands of vacant units that the government were certain are out there- actually aren't.

    NAMA had a limited supply of residential housing units in Ireland (it had over a hundred thousand in the UK)- most of its property in Ireland was actually commercial in nature. It did have a number of 'ghost estates' and other developments that were partially or wholly undeveloped. I think the figure I heard bandied around was 4 billion- that NAMA spent to bring any viable developments to the market. Keep in mind- its remit was to sell off its loans (and it owned the loans not the property in lien on the loans)- to the highest bidders. It has been a reasonable success as an organisation (though it was difficult not to be a success when they only paid an average of 48c on the Euro for the loans they took charge of).

    There was a vast glut of property available out there in the noughties- that could in theory have been bought up by the government for social housing units (when we had the money to pay for it). Instead we flustered around with the ideas of grandiose projects- such as the Bertie Bowl and other vanity expenditure. However- from the time of plenty- we ground to more or less a halt- and the natural rate of increase in our households- has mopped up the excess supply, as it then was.

    The only solution to the issue- is a massive increase in supply- sufficient to dampen pent up demand- and then an ongoing social housing development strategy- which has to include a complete halt to selling social housing units- forever.

    Supply though- is the knux to cracking this problem. The transfer of 700m per annum to the private rental sector- is not the fault of landlords (many of whom are voting with their feet and exiting the sector altogether). It is the fault of an incoherent government policy that simultaneously allowed local authorities sell off their housing stocks- while simultaneously no replacements came on board.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    nostro wrote: »
    Social housing worked for generations. An ideological decision was made by FG to effectively end it. Now we have the intended consequences of that policy.
    A "housing crisis" homelessness, vast sums of money being transferred to private landlords and hotels, skyrocketing rents for low paid workers.
    This was all very foreseeable and is intended.
    And although there are losers there are a lot of people that have become very wealthy from this policy.
    The charity industries, the institution investors, REITS who buy up blocks of apartments on the promise of the HAP millions.

    That’s a lie.

    FF made the decision to stop building it.

    FG took over and last year the most social houses were built in the last decade.

    So what you posted is complete bull****.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Magnatu wrote: »
    You are completely missing the point. It was ideological.
    There were large numbers of empty houses and NAMA had significant stocks which it offered to the government for social housing. FG rejected the offer.
    They decided to stop providing social housing at the exact time that tens of thousands of housing units were available to them. Instead they started to dramatically and significantly increase financial transfers to private landlords.

    This policy only makes any sense if you understand the ideological basis for it.
    Which they are resisting changing despite enormous pressure.

    Anything to say about the 4,500 social houses built last year by FG?

    Or does your waffle facts just take into account up to 2015 and nothing after that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    Magnatu wrote: »
    Ah. So ye don't really want the €700 million..
    I don't want anything from the Irish govvie, the govvie and most of the TDs are my sworn enemies. I just want them to leave me in peace, stop issuing very damaging legislation almost every year and with the tax money they pocket from landlords (indirectly from tenants) they can build plenty social housing (which they don't want to do, since it takes a lot of time and effort, SF are the worst hypocrites, since wherever they are in power they do f...k all!). BTW almost half of that money goes straight back into the govvie coffers after a few months. Have you ever thought about that?



    I do not want the govvie welfare tenants, most of them represent a huge potential credit risk (since they have nothing to loose) and the vast majority of worst stories of overholding and non payment of rent come from this class of tenants. Mind you they also screw councils, the rent arrears on the tiny council houses rents are mind boggling.


    The real issue in a first world country is the one of balancing crime rates vs providing free stuff to people who have no skills to work (or no willingness to work). In third world countries the solution is real quick, all these people with no skills and no work are dispatched straight into the streets, they live like animals in shanty towns, but on the other side the crime rates are massive (security is a massive concern).


    This forum is not the typical sold out socialist Irish medial outlet, here (as you might have well noticed) your will get real push back on stupid socialist "easy" propaganda issued by the SF hypocrites.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The large numbers of empty houses were based on the premise of the census denoting properties as vacant at census time. A list of addresses were forwarded to the local authority for investigation by the CSO (on the instruction of the Minister)- which when investigated in DCC (for example) showed a total of fewer than 12% of those properties denoted by the CSO as vacant residential units- to be vacant.

    You are alleging that the last census is completely incorrect and that there are hundreds of thousands more people in the country than were counted (living in the houses counted as vacant).

    Can you provide any evidence for any of the statements above? Because I don’t remember any massive restatement of CSO results. (I don’t remember any law being passed allowing ministers to demand census data either.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 469 ✭✭boege


    I did some quick calculations on what it would cost government to displace all these HAP payments. Take an average rent of average property price of around €350k and an interest rate of 4% and you get €630m, give or take. There is no tax return on this to government as would apply to landlords HAP income.

    What most people overlook is that the landlord absorbs the overhead of rental property management. Landlords cannot cost their own time into your tax returns. I suspect Government has outsourced social housing to the private sector as its simply cheaper.

    There is also the not insignificant fact that we still have a large government debt and that a large scale social housing programme will increase that debt. More than likely this will increase the interest rate paid on all of the dept. I do have a sneaking suspicion that the government is still limited (by Troika members) in its capacity to borrow for major capital programmes. My understanding is that Ireland is still in an EU debt surveillance programme on debt repayment. Politicians don't like to admit that they are not really in control.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Private housing is a pretty cheap way to provide social housing when you take into account the tax it generates and the level of service it provides. In general private housing is required to meet much higher standards than public provided housing.

    The government is subject to borrowing restriction the same as all other member states.

    This Isnt the whole story though. Most countries manage to borrow off balance sheet for social housing. They do this by arranging for social housing to be owned and operated by housing associations. The local authorities have not succeeded in figuring out how to do this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Magnatu wrote: »
    Suppose you stopped the €700 million in annual transfers in the morning what would happen. Rents would collapse.

    There would be a downward pressure on rents. But I'd say there would still be enough demand (in Dublin) for them not to fall too far; what would happen is that renting in Dublin would become unaffordable overnight for anyone reliant on a social welfare payment. And while I can actually see some merit in this idea (I don't see the benefit of subsidising people who don't need to be in Dublin for work to live there; people on SW could move to better accommodation in parts of the country where there isn't a housing crisis, and where their limited income would go further), I doubt that this would be the outcome that you intended.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭sk8board


    boege wrote: »
    ........ I suspect Government has outsourced social housing to the private sector as its simply cheaper.

    As a full time LL, I can assure you this was the case in 2012 when the decision to defacto outsource was made and is still the case now. It honestly was probably the right decision at the time - there was a very ‘motivated’ private rental market - 23,000 properties to rent on daft in 2012 and LLs were being chased by nationalised banks.
    Now there’s 3000 places to rent, rents are at an all time high, but the market is broken and accidental LLs are selling, especially now that capital returns are most likely topping out.

    - People can give out about REITs, but the reality is that the market needs to professionalise if it’s to be held to any standards.
    - Accidental LLs need to be replaced, not removed
    - Allow LLs to establish companies rather than the current situation of rental income being treated as PAYE income, like it was some sort of Christmas bonus we’ve earned. unfortunately that bonus has a load of costs

    It’s a broken market for all sides.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    Great headline for attracting an emotive and populist agenda SF does not propose solutions just publicity where and when ever.
    To deliberately suggest a transfer of state money to greedy LLs with nothing in return is a great waste of money bit like your own unvouched expenses and generous pensions totally out of line with reality and a luxury LLs cannot have.

    Simple as the state cannot borrow to build so the provision of mandatory social housing on private LLs is the cheaper options and the councils are loving it zero risk and given their total failure and mismanagement by selling off cheap, allowing 100s million in arrears, no space utilisation single occupant in 3 beds.
    It still a drop in the ocean where the waste really is but there no votes in that one


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    pwurple wrote: »
    Indeed. So, Working people should provide their goods and services for free, and never be paid at all at all...? Is that what they want?

    Or, government provided slums.

    Both cool options.

    Landlords are not working people (even if they work) landlords are by definition rentiers.
    Don't feel bad about not knowing this.

    Magnatu wrote: »
    Ah. So ye don't really want the €700 million..
    In fairness in much of the country (and probably most of the market) landlords try to avoid tenants whose rent is paid by the state. A landlord is obliged to accept such tenants.
    There is a perception that such tenants are more likely that those who are paying their own rent to default and also that in default the landlord won't be able to recover.
    Also there is a danger that the house that the landlord is trying to rent out will be found substandard by the county council.

    I am sure that in Kerry, Donegal etc. landlords are happy to take HAP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭sk8board


    There is a perception that such tenants are more likely that those who are paying their own rent to default and also that in default the landlord won't be able to recover.

    I currently take HAP, and that’s not really the big risk - it’s the council themselves.
    e.g I get €1100 from the council and €200 from the tenant. If the tenant is late paying the €200, or stops, the council automatically stop paying their portion and throw me to RTB to resolve our differences. They just want people under roofs, and then abdicate all responsibility.

    Why not e.g continue to pay the 1100 for 3 months after the tenant stops paying to try get things back in order. Anything would help really


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Its worth noting that from the 700 million, the government probably get close to 350 million back on tax or PRSI or USC or whatever taxes companies pay.

    The 350 million "profit" the landlords make is then reinvested (i.e paying back mortgage to banks which could be partially owned by the government eg AIB - thus making profit for government) or spent in the local economy.

    The government is not responsible for maintaining these properties


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Magnatu wrote: »
    An accusation levelled against Fine Gael many times over the years was that the housing crisis was deliberately and cynically manufactured in order to allow them to justify the massive transfer of taxpayer money to the already wealthy. The investment funds, the pension funds, the landlords.

    Figures obtained by Sinn Féin’s Eoin Ó Broin show that in total, €695,346,000 was given to private landlords in 2018.

    “This is a massive transfer of public money to private landlords,” said Ó Broin.

    Another intended consequence of this ideologicaly driven wealth transfer is spiraling rents. At the same time as these massive sums are being paid annually no affordable homes and tiny numbers of social homes are being provided.


    The bigger picture....

    The reduction of social housing built by Local Authorities started in the 80s.
    They switched to outsourcing it to the private sector as a cost cutting measure.
    Private Market didn't want it, and had to be forced to accept it.

    This was something that happened in many European countries and it has resulted in a housing crisis in most countries that did it. Then it was compounded by credit bubbles and boom and bust economic policies.

    Both FG and FF have poured fuel on these fire, repeatedly.
    The opposition sat on their hands while on over watch.


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