PHEV family car

Tombo2001

Unfortunately need to get a car at short notice as the other has given up.

Can anyone recommend a PHEV that would be suitable for family with 3 kids?

Mickeroo

Outlander PHEV probably since you have 3 kids.

Tombo2001

Thanks

Do you think anything smaller would work?

Considering the Niro or CHR.....

n97 mini

https://ev-database.uk/compare/cheapest-plugin-hybrid

ELM327

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thanks

Do you think anything smaller would work?

Considering the Niro or CHR.....

Niro is much smaller than the Outlander and much more expensive as it's a more recent model.


CHR is not a PHEV

slave1

What are your driving patterns and annual kilometres driven?

Tombo2001

Probably 10000 miles per year -

Each week, a two way journey of 70 miles each way.

Other than that short spins in Dublin.

slave1

Grand, just work out your fuel savings to see is it financially worth it, range is not massive in PHEV (as you can see from the link already posted), you'll have to plug it in virtually every night and a reasonable chance the EV range will be depleted early in the day if those short spins add up, multiple school runs, quick shop etc.
Don't believe manufacturers range promise, most PHEV's will have proper real world testing on YouTube

Tombo2001

Thanks folks

On review, I think we will go with Kia Niro Hybrid (not PHEV).

I think its just about big enough for 3 kids.

daheff

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thanks folks

On review, I think we will go with Kia Niro Hybrid (not PHEV).

I think its just about big enough for 3 kids.

I dont think they sell the Hybrid new anymore in Ireland. I was told that Kia Ireland felt the cost of Hybrid vs PHEV was so similar that it was better to just sell the PHEV.


I have a Niro. Interior is quite large & well spec'd. Boot is not so big (As batteries are in it). The Outlander would have a much larger boot space.


if you are doing 70 miles each way, then phev wont do that. It says max of 58km range -but really more like 45-50km.

BMW i3 Rex , we're family of 4 and have 3 year old and 4.5 year old Boys , manage perfectly fine. Not as small as you think.

2 battery versions available, 64 Ah and 94 Ah, 100-110 Kms Winter to 110-130 Kms Summer for the 64 Ah and 150-170 Kms range - 200 Kms in Summer for the 94 Ah , I've got 230 Kms off the motorway. But that would be the upper end. Both Full EV range No Rex.

64 Ah available in 2014-late 2016 94 Ah late 2016- late 2018.

The Rex only comes on when the battery runs low, a normal hybrid the petrol powers the car 99% of the time so the i3 Rex would Save massively on fuel bills.

Any other plug in may travel only 20-30 Kms Max on Battery only the i3 Rex is definitely King of the Phev market, there's nothing like it on the road.

I3 can also use the fast chargers , a normal PHEV can not except the Outlander but the i3 charges much faster than the Outlander.

R1_Pete

I recently picked up a 152 outlander PHEV as our family car. We have two kids.

Came from a older (2008) Merc ML diesel.
Space wise, the outlander feels just as big.
Fuel economy on the PHEV is amazing. We operate mostly on electric, school runs etc. charging it once overnight. Using a tank of petrol every 2/3 weeks.

I can’t recommend it highly enough as a family car.

uck51js9zml2yt

R1_Pete wrote: »

I recently picked up a 152 outlander PHEV as our family car. We have two kids.

Came from a older (2008) Merc ML diesel.
Space wise, the outlander feels just as big.
Fuel economy on the PHEV is amazing. We operate mostly on electric, school runs etc. charging it once overnight. Using a tank of petrol every 2/3 weeks.

I can’t recommend it highly enough as a family car.

What's the max distance you get in the battery?

Springwell

Deleted User wrote: »

Any other plug in may travel only 20-30 Kms Max on Battery only the i3 Rex is definitely King of the Phev market, there's nothing like it on the road.

Not true, the Niro does 50-58km depending on the weather

n97 mini

Springwell wrote: »

Not true, the Niro does 50-58km depending on the weather

That's the range quoted in the sales literature.

Usable battery is 7.1kWh (which is very small), so at 58km that'd be 12.2kWh/100km. No real world review has achieved that. The actual range is between 37 and 54km.

Mad_Lad is right about the i3 Rex being the king of the PHEVs, but it's not so much of a PHEV in spirit, it's more a BEV with onboard ~600cc two cylinder petrol generator.

Springwell

n97 mini wrote: »

That's the range quoted in the sales literature.

Usable battery is 7.1kWh (which is very small), so at 58km that'd be 12.2kWh/100km. No real world review has achieved that. The actual range is between 37 and 54km.

Mad_Lad is right about the i3 Rex being the king of the PHEVs, but it's not so much of a PHEV in spirit, it's more a BEV with onboard ~600cc two cylinder petrol generator.

No that is the actual range for Niro. I've driven 30,000km in mine now, I'm pretty familiar with the range.

https://ev-database.uk/car/1115/Kia-Niro-PHEV

Real Range (Electric Only) between 25-48 kms

Highway , Cold weather to City warm weather.

BMW i3 94 Ah, Rex can do 150-160 Kms Cold - 230 Kms Warm. EV only and unlimited Rex.

150 - 160 kms based on my own driving and well above city driving speeds.

And it's not that small either.

This is a pretty big lawnmower.









And the Kona, the sister car to the Niro beside the i3.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a pretty big lawnmower.

And you didn't even put down a liner! :eek:

I'd slap you if you did that to my car!

n97 mini

Springwell wrote: »

No that is the actual range for Niro. I've driven 30,000km in mine now, I'm pretty familiar with the range.

Ok, well that's fair enough. But you're in the top percentile. You're probably a more efficient driver than me!

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

And you didn't even put down a liner! :eek:

I'd slap you if you did that to my car!

Yes I know, I'm bad , it was a once off. I was selling it to a mate and wanted to get it to him asap before he changed his mind !

You wouldn't even know it was in the boot, all immaculate again.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I know, I'm bad , it was a once off. I was selling it to a mate and wanted to get it to him asap before he changed his mind !

You wouldn't even know it was in the boot, all immaculate again.

I see the handle is close to the headliner. I hope it's also pristine!

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

I see the handle is close to the headliner. I hope it's also pristine!

It was actually a decent distance away so as I said , you wouldn't know the mower was in the car now lol.

Compared to the Leaf 24 Kwh the boot in the i3 is far more practical as you can see, with the back seats folded it's completely flat, with the leaf there was a God awful lip and dip which made getting stuff in and out a lot more difficult. I was surprised.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

It was actually a decent distance away so as I said , you wouldn't know the mower was in the car now lol.

Compared to the Leaf 24 Kwh the boot in the i3 is far more practical as you can see, with the back seats folded it's completely flat, with the leaf there was a God awful lip and dip which made getting stuff in and out a lot more difficult. I was surprised.

The useless plastic box with Bose written on it in the boot of the Leaf doesn't help matters either...

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

The useless plastic box with Bose written on it in the boot of the Leaf doesn't help matters either...

The Bose in the Leaf was terrible probably made a lot worse by the so called Sub woofer but it was too small to call a sub woofer and resonated only at particular frequencies causing more of a boom than anything , being a band pass enclosure than ported reflex design which are much better. The HK in the i3 is much better.

mickdw

daheff wrote: »

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thanks folks

On review, I think we will go with Kia Niro Hybrid (not PHEV).

I think its just about big enough for 3 kids.

I dont think they sell the Hybrid new anymore in Ireland. I was told that Kia Ireland felt the cost of Hybrid vs PHEV was so similar that it was better to just sell the PHEV.


I have a Niro. Interior is quite large & well spec'd. Boot is not so big (As batteries are in it). The Outlander would have a much larger boot space.


if you are doing 70 miles each way, then phev wont do that. It says max of 58km range -but really more like 45-50km.

But sure the beauty of the prev is that it is fine if it doesn't do the full journey. Anyone buying a phev is expecting to use some petrol it hopefully do the running around on electric.

Some PHEV have much more range than others , the i3 Rex 94 Ah being that, no other car like it on the road and is always strictly 100% electrically powered with the generator kicking in only when needed.

i3 94ah Rex has 33 Kwh battery, Niro, 8.9 Kwh..........

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

But sure the beauty of the prev is that it is fine if it doesn't do the full journey. Anyone buying a phev is expecting to use some petrol it hopefully do the running around on electric.

The major, major drawback of most PHEV is that they only have very limited power in EV only mode. I.e. a fairly big PHEV like a Kia Niro only has something like 45BHP in EV only mode

So unless you're driving miss Daisy, put the foot down and you will use quite a lot of petrol, even if the battery is fully charged. That would put me right off one.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

The major, major drawback of most PHEV is that they only have very limited power in EV only mode. I.e. a fairly big PHEV like a Kia Niro only has something like 45BHP in EV only mode

So unless you're driving miss Daisy, put the foot down and you will use quite a lot of petrol, even if the battery is fully charged. That would put me right off one.

That's true in a majority of cases, but not all. The Ampera has full power (148bhp) on battery, but not on petrol. The petrol engine is 90bhp, so if the battery is completely depleted (which rarely happens) 90bhp is all that is available. Usually enough of the battery is kept in reserve to allow 148bhp bursts (to overtake etc), but keep hammering it and you'll get told that propulsion power is reduced. The i3 Rex behaves in the same way.

Alkers

n97 mini wrote:

That's true in a majority of cases, but not all. The Ampera has full power (148bhp) on battery, but not on petrol. The petrol engine is 90bhp, so if the battery is completely depleted (which rarely happens) 90bhp is all that is available. Usually enough of the battery is kept in reserve to allow 148bhp bursts (to overtake etc), but keep hammering it and you'll get told that propulsion power is reduced. The i3 Rex behaves in the same way.

Worth mentioning that even if the battery range is zero, that a decent portion of battery capacity is kept in reserve so that the chances of the reduced propulsion is pretty slim with normal driving

n97 mini

Simona1986 wrote: »

Worth mentioning that even if the battery range is zero, that a decent portion of battery capacity is kept in reserve so that the chances of the reduced propulsion is pretty slim with normal driving

Yep. Around 6kWh is reserved. Drove home from Sligo yesterday, and was able to do a few overtakes on the N4 without problem.

Lived in Utah for a while, where it's possible to drive from 4800ft to 11000ft in 20 mins. I'd imagine propulsion power would be reduced fairly rapidly!

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

That's true in a majority of cases, but not all. The Ampera has full power (148bhp) on battery, but not on petrol. The petrol engine is 90bhp, so if the battery is completely depleted (which rarely happens) 90bhp is all that is available. Usually enough of the battery is kept in reserve to allow 148bhp bursts (to overtake etc), but keep hammering it and you'll get told that propulsion power is reduced. The i3 Rex behaves in the same way.

I have never lost power in the 94Ah Rex it has always 170 Hp available to me even with depleted battery at 120 Km/h.

Trick with the Rex is to use the Rex when you know you don't have the EV range to keep as much battery power as possible then use the battery on slower roads and for town driving. The key is to know when to use the rex and battery.

But as I said even on lengthy motorway trips the Rex in the 94 Ah has never ever lost power.

When the battery has depleted to 6.5% the Rex kicks in automatically keeping a buffer for acceleration but when the load on the battery is reduced the battery charges back up again, the 94 Ah Rex is more powerful than the 64 Ah.

And the difference with the i3 Rex and Ampera is that the Engine can assist the motor in the Ampera, the Engine in the i3 never ever drives the wheels as there is absolutely 0 mechanical connection from Generator to wheels. The Rex acts solely as a generator.

On European i3 Rex you have the option to turn on the Rex from 75% battery charge so there should never be an excuse to loose power by letting the battery run very low but as I said even at 6.5% I have never lost power, all 170 HP has always been available to me even with the rex on.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Yep. Around 6kWh is reserved. Drove home from Sligo yesterday, and was able to do a few overtakes on the N4 without problem.

Lived in Utah for a while, where it's possible to drive from 4800ft to 11000ft in 20 mins. I'd imagine propulsion power would be reduced fairly rapidly!

When the i3 was released in the U.S there was no option for owners to turn on the rex above 6.5% and early i3 64 Ah had a less powerful rex.

In Europe and the rest of the world the Rex can be turned on at 75% and if someone knows they got a long trip which can't be met with EV only then they can turn on the Rex to preserve as much battery as possible to ensure there is never a loss of power and to use battery on slower roads and in town.

But as I said with as low battery as the i3 would allow 5% under load, I think I observed 4% at one time @120 Km/h on the motorway I have never lost power and when load is reduced the i3 battery will charge to 7-8% ready for the next burst of power.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

And the difference with the i3 Rex and Ampera is that the Engine can assist the motor in the Ampera, the Engine in the i3 never ever drives the wheels as there is absolutely 0 mechanical connection from Generator to wheels. The Rex acts solely as a generator.

The Ampera can clutch the wheels to the engine only above 75mph. So in reality it never really happens. With ours I've never noticed a correlation between engine tone and speed.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

The Ampera can clutch the wheels to the engine only above 75mph. So in reality it never really happens. With ours I've never noticed a correlation between engine tone and speed.

https://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

Andrew Farah, the Volt's Chief Engineer explaining the whole process. Put simply, there is a mechanical connection between the ICE and the drivetrain, but it is not being called a "direct" mechanical connection as it only
works in concert with torque from the electric motors. There are "situations where we will take mechanical torque from the engine," according to Farah, but there is no arbitrary speed restriction. It's "based on the efficiency map" and is related not to speed, but overall torque in the system. You can listen to the whole thing here

Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. "The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is depleted," he said.
The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive the vehicle.

Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its own. The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels.
Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it cannot operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors.

The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.
There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors.

Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.

So the Ampera ICE can provide power to the wheels the i3 ( Rex ) can not, under any circumstances and makes the i3 100% unique.

The i3 is always driven 100% by the electric motor.

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

But sure the beauty of the prev is that it is fine if it doesn't do the full journey. Anyone buying a phev is expecting to use some petrol it hopefully do the running around on electric.

The major, major drawback of most PHEV is that they only have very limited power in EV only mode. I.e. a fairly big PHEV like a Kia Niro only has something like 45BHP in EV only mode

So unless you're driving miss Daisy, put the foot down and you will use quite a lot of petrol, even if the battery is fully charged. That would put me right off one.

The likes of 330e and c350e are perfectly adequate for city use in all electric and even with some instances of petrol engine coming in, it will be of little significance in terms of economy.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

The likes of 330e and c350e are perfectly adequate for city use in all electric and even with some instances of petrol engine coming in, it will be of little significance in terms of economy.

I guess it depends on how you like to use your car. I drive my EV very aggressively all the time and neither of those cars would be on a par performance wise using electric only compared to my modest Hyundai EV. And to get similar performance out of those PHEV cars, you will use a significant volume of petrol.

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

I guess it depends on how you like to use your car. I drive my EV very aggressively all the time and neither of those cars would be on a par performance wise using electric only compared to my modest Hyundai EV. And to get similar performance out of those PHEV cars, you will use a significant volume of petrol.

You EV guys! You all tend to quote range at its most optimistic which will require the lightest of right feet yet now when comparing with PHEV, I guess you all like to hammer the EV for all its worth.
My original point was in response to someone who said PHEV wouldn't suit because it wouldn't do one of the noted journeys on electric only when in reality, it would seem to be a very good match for the suggested use.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

You EV guys! You all tend to quote range at its most optimistic which will require the lightest of right feet yet now when comparing with PHEV, I guess you all like to hammer the EV for all its worth.

I hammer my EV always and I report on here honestly and I try and give context anytime I can

You as a car enthusiast, should go test drive one for 24h. Any EV, even a modest econobox FWD cheap EV like a Hyundai or a Nissan. And report back to us.

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

I hammer my EV always and I report on here honestly and I try and give context anytime I can

You as a car enthusiast, should go test drive one for 24h. Any EV, even a modest econobox FWD cheap EV like a Hyundai or a Nissan. And report back to us.

I like electric power. Very open to it. Phev is where it's at for me though. Usage is far too unpredictable to go for ev.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The major, major drawback of most PHEV is that they only have very limited power in EV only mode. I.e. a fairly big PHEV like a Kia Niro only has something like 45BHP in EV only mode

So unless you're driving miss Daisy, put the foot down and you will use quite a lot of petrol, even if the battery is fully charged. That would put me right off one.

Niro PHEV is ~45kW, I think, not BHP, in EV mode.

The old leaf was 110HP, the Niro PHEV in EV mode is 60HP.

So, it is down in power but it’s not that bad. I was hoping it would have a bit more in my test drive though.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

You EV guys! You all tend to quote range at its most optimistic which will require the lightest of right feet yet now when comparing with PHEV, I guess you all like to hammer the EV for all its worth.
My original point was in response to someone who said PHEV wouldn't suit because it wouldn't do one of the noted journeys on electric only when in reality, it would seem to be a very good match for the suggested use.

The figures I quoted are correct for the i3 Rex. Some will get more and some will get less.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Niro PHEV is ~45kW, I think, not BHP, in EV mode.

The old leaf was 110HP, the Niro PHEV in EV mode is 60HP.

So, it is down in power but it’s not that bad.

Not bad? 60BHP in a car weighing over 1500kg is pretty brutal

I doubt it can even drive at motorway speeds on electric alone. Or if it can, it would take a very long time to reach 120km/h on electric...

The whole point about going PHEV imho is that you can drive it normally (obviously not hammering it) on electric only and that that covers (most of) your commute and all your short trips etc.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Not bad? 60BHP in a car weighing over 1500kg is pretty brutal

I doubt it can even drive at motorway speeds on electric alone. Or if it can, it would take a very long time to reach 120km/h on electric...

The whole point about going PHEV imho is that you can drive it normally (obviously not hammering it) on electric only and that that covers (most of) your commute and all your short trips etc.

It doesn’t really work that way. The motor and ICE work together. If you want EV only driving you can do that just ease off on the right foot.

In reality the ICE gets used so you have more than 60HP available just you don’t use the extra all the time. People seem to get very high mpg on these cars.

unkel

Oh I know how they work.

But I guess your point is that you can drive it normally, even hammer it and you will still have substantial savings compared to a diesel, as long as a lot of your driving is shortish trips and you do plug in all the time. I would fully agree with that point.

I have met several people though who thought they could drive the car on electric only, but in reality the petrol engine is working a lot of the time, burning fuel. And they weren't happy with that. They thought they would get an EV for short distances, costing almost nothing to run, and then they would have the petrol as backup for longer journeys. That's not what most PHEVs are like in real life.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Niro PHEV is ~45kW, I think, not BHP, in EV mode.

The old leaf was 110HP, the Niro PHEV in EV mode is 60HP.

So, it is down in power but it’s not that bad. I was hoping it would have a bit more in my test drive though.

Outlander according to owners here makes 160bhp in EV mode

That's decent

peposhi

mickdw wrote: »

I like electric power. Very open to it. Phev is where it's at for me though. Usage is far too unpredictable to go for ev.

One of the reasons I did not go for Outlander was the EV only range. After driving Leafs for 4 years the Outlander’s battery only range felt like a hiccup. I probably would have gone for one if it had been 100km real world EV only kilometres. With 35km - meh... could not go back. That’s why both of our family cars are Leafs and for the one time I had a family over and need to carry 7 people I hired a VW Touran for a weekend. €70 vs €3000 savings on fuel per year - I can live with that.
I am not saying you’re going in the wrong direction, it might work out perfect for you. It’s just to be cautious and not expect to save much (if anything) with a PHEV...

Alkers

PHEV works well as the sole family car or as a second car with an EV as the other car

PHEV works for me, 160-230 Km Pure EV range + petrol if I need more !

Not all PHEV are equal !

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

PHEV works for me, 160-230 Km Pure EV range + petrol if I need more !

Not all PHEV are equal !

You've finally accepted it.
Respect.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

You've finally accepted it.
Respect.

I have to follow the sheep for the easier life !