Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884012#Comment_118884012

What relevance does that have to what happened to Coombes? Toner didn’t target his lower limbs. He didn’t hit his leg, he hit his body. Got under him, lifted him up and over. In effect the perfect clear out. Except that it was a side entry. Which is a penalty offense but is not foul play.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884070#Comment_118884070

It's against the laws of the game, which it clearly states is foul play. Your made up terminology of what constitutes foul play is contradicting the terminology used by World Rugby.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884087#Comment_118884087

It was a penalty offence for side entry, no more. The actual clear out was perfect in its technique (obviously apart from the ruck entry point).

It was not foul play, not by the definition you've provided above, or by the laws of common sense. So, while it would in the ordinary course of events be a Munster penalty, in this situation, it would not have overridden the existing penalty advantage which Leinster had.

Honestly, why is this point coming up again and again and again? Do you genuinely believe Toner intended to injure Coombes?

awec

Whoever at Munster sanctioned the Van Graan 2 year extension should have very tough questions to answer.

David Nucifora and his lackies at HQ should also have questions to answer as they unquestionably have input into this.

Feels like I make this point on a yearly basis now, Munster are going nowhere under JVG and this has been clear since very early in his tenure, but at least now you know he’s going.

5 seasons I think? Probably 3 seasons too many. Munsters Les Kiss, never good enough and always waiting for some miraculous improvement that will never come.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884146#Comment_118884146

It was reckless and dangerous, that fits the laws I quoted.

My point was that by world rugby's terminology it is foul play, it's not comparable to a penalty for standing in an offside position. It's a reckless side entry clearout and lifting the players leg in the process resulting in an injury.

Peter O'Mahony was quoted today as saying he understands the need to take short cuts sometimes to clear out a ruck, so he didn't see it as a big issue, every player tries to get into the ruck as quickly as possible to win the ball back, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't foul play, if Toner had come into the ruck straight and not reached for his leg then no issue.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884189#Comment_118884189

It means he think it was a side entry, i.e. rucking from an offside position, and nothing more. It was a technical offence and such injuries happen in perfectly legal clearouts all the time. His ankle was trapped during the clearout - it happens. The clearout happened to be from the side, had the ref/TMO/AR noticed it it would have still been a penalty Leinster for the earlier offence.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884290#Comment_118884290

Now you’re attempting to change the terminology from foul play to technical offence?

Why do you think World Rugby have brought in a law specifically to deal with leg injuries as a result of dangerous clear outs, and highlighted that law under the heading Foul Play!

Former Former Former

Side entry is not foul play. It is offside.

Side entry to a ruck will never overrule an existing advantage.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884175#Comment_118884175

I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on JVG and Nucifora there. No he wasn't a coach that won us silverware and under him we've played a very tight game or a game full of aimless kicking, he's prioritised foreigners over the academy and possibly led to some great players departing too early and his announcement mid season of a departure leaves a lot to be desired

However it should be borne in mind that under his leadership we've continued to reach finals and semi finals while other clubs fight for Champions Cup qualification spots we've never had such issues even under him so he can't be all that bad

phog

Rumour and I stress rumour that I heard tonight with no name is that it's a coach from NZ we're getting but may not be with us for the start of the new season.

Make of that what you want

Treaty fella

Interesting Phog, with super rugby final scheduled for same day as URC final youd wonder why wouldn’t they be here for the start

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885204#Comment_118885204

IMHO, Coombes wouldn't have been injured if Toner had entered the ruck from the hind most foot as he wouldn't have been able to shift Coombes in the manner he did.

Edit at add

From a previous post by Jump In Jack

GLOBAL LAW TRIAL

A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.

No there can be some argument about what targeting the lower limbs may mean and did Toner by entering ruck from the side have an unfair advantage in getting access to Coombes leg to enable him to jackle Coombes away from the contest but surely there's no one here who is saying that Toner didn't land on top of Coombes after completing his jackle.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886192#Comment_118886192

under his leadership we've continued to reach finals and semi finals while other clubs fight for Champions Cup qualification spots

This is fair - by no stretch has JVG been a disaster, he's kept the ship pretty steady.

He has two issues;

1) The expectation for Munster among fans is still to be at the very top of the game. Getting to the knockouts of Europe and Pro14 would be great for most clubs but Munster are not most clubs. However, Munster reached those heights with a group of players who were much better than any squad that has followed them and that is not JVG's fault.

2) However, the problem for JVG is that he's been here nearly five years and there has been no indication of progress. We're exactly where we were when Rassie left, a team jostling to join the top table but not quite making it, never quite able to match the big teams. Again, he doesn't have the players that Kidney or even McGahan had, but there's been precious little indication that JVG is the man to make the best of the players that are there, or to really identify those players who might improve things.

TBH I think he's been OK but was promoted beyond his abilities and his time here has run its course.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886608#Comment_118886608

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886904#Comment_118886904

Having had a quick look at MFs it looks like this rumour was more suited to April 1st than last night - apologies.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884012#Comment_118884012

Thanks for that but its not relevant to the Toner clear out. He didn't target Coombes lower limbs and he didn't drop his weight on them. So what Toner did was not foul play.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884189#Comment_118884189

How was it reckless or dangerous?

OhHiMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888164#Comment_118888164

Looks very like he hit Coombes in the leg here. https://v.redd.it/wpglvvr3qqr81

molloyjh

I’m baffled that this Toner thing is still ongoing. We’ve had no citing and we’ve had no serious analysts calling any form of attention to it whatsoever. The TMO didn’t call the ref attention to it either and nothing has been said by anyone from the Munster set-up about it. If what Toner did really was dangerous there’d be some form of discussion from some sort of analyst/player/coach. There isn’t.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888721#Comment_118888721

https://mobile.twitter.com/Divided321/status/1511322221960208390?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511384118076055553%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-35012966893704861578.ampproject.net%2F2203172113000%2Fframe.html

Side entry and pulling his leg is the sole reason for the injury. That’s targeting lower limb, which is 100% foul play and exactly what World Rugby are trying to stamp out.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888994#Comment_118888994

the sole reason for the injury is the fact his left leg is trapped under his own player. Toner actually comes through the gate (over the Leinster legs) but drives sideways. Toners first point of impact is shoulder to hip. He has to wrap, which he does, but he doesnt target a lower limb. It could even be argued that Doris assistance in the clean out pulls Coombes sideways. There are many dynamic reasons for that injury, but 'foul play' isnt one of them

phog

Group think would try and make you believe anything.

I haven't seen anyone bar a Leinster fan trying to claim Toner's entry to the ruck was legal. If they keep reversing out of this we'll get to a stage the blame will be landed on Coombes for contesting in the ruck or some such craziness.

There are times when we might be better off with a thread that's dead then some of stuff being pushed at us.

Dubinusa

Lads! Toner came in from the side! It seems that way to me. It wasn't dirty or intended to cause injury.

Throughout the match, there were side entries by both sides. I think the ref just allowed a Donnybrook at the rucks. I thought Toners clear out was the most obvious side entry, regardless of Coombes injury.

If the ref allows this then both sides will have a go.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889038#Comment_118889038

Whatever about foul play, there’s no way his ruck entry was legal, Syd.

And if Toner makes a legal entry, I’m not so sure he makes as dominant a clear out. Coombes would likely be able to maintain way more stability.

Podge_irl

ah here phog.

The entry was blatantly illegal, he was outrageously offside. Everything else was just bad luck.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889274#Comment_118889274

Most, if not all, agree that Toner came in the side, which is illegal. The debated topic is whether what he did was dangerous and caused the injury. Had Loughman not been there Coombes wouldn’t have been injured. If Toner had come through the gate and Loughman been on Coombes’ leg then we could have been looking at the same or similar outcome. It was an accident and something that can and does happen in the game. Toners offence would not have warranted overturning the advantage so even if it were called out, nothing would have changed.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889471#Comment_118889471

Most, if not all, agree that Toner came in the side, which is illegal.

Have a word with Syd there molloy, will ya? ;)

If pom had done the exact same thing their would be uproar from the people saying that wasn't dangerous or illegal.

I don't think their was anything malicious about it but it was dangerous and illegal

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889512#Comment_118889512

he doesnt need to have a word at all. Its obvious from the rear angle that Toner enter over the legs of the tackled player, so legally "through the gate" . The problem is he hits the ruck at practically 45 degrees and hits coombes side on. it the quintessential "side entry" result though as is called by refs all the time, he swings the player sideways instead of driving him backwards. But hes not offside. Have a look at world rugby video example of what constitute "in at the side" ... toner is nowhere near that level of offsideness.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889644#Comment_118889644

This seems pretty pointless but I'll give it a go.

I'm pretty certain it's Jack Dunne (not Doris, that you mentioned earlier) that's first to arrive.

He's clearly in contact here. Agreed?

You can clearly see Toner hasn't bound yet. Agreed?

If you check the video here you can clearly see Toner doesn't retreat from here. Agreed?

Now, are you really arguing that Toner is behind the hindmost foot here? Have a look at the World Rugby example of offside at a ruck. It's very, very similar.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889875#Comment_118889875

youre argument falls down on one aspect. you say, and i agree, that in your still toner hasnt bound. therefore at that point he is not part of the ruck.

if you take it to one split second later than your still, as seen below

he still hasnt bound, and is not clearly ahead of Dunne hindmost foot. By the time he actually does make contact, Dunne has gone beyond Coombes and Toner is till behind him. Archer he is doing well to be both behind Dunne, and Ahead of Toner, yet youre saying Toner is ahead of Dunne. Maybe its actually Toners length that is throwing all of this off, but even at that, he clearly is behind dunne here making contact with coombes