Will Toyota have to eventually provide diesel cars again?

mengele

Do ye think Toyota will eventually have to go back and provide us with diesel options in the Corolla, rav 4 and camrys? Surely there are going to lose a sizable (around 15 per cent I would say) percentage of the car market by not offering cars in diesel. I know there is a big push for petrol but there are still a few people out there who do high miles who would have always went a diesel Toyota for the reliability.

Atlantic Dawn

What they will lose they will gain with people looking for hybrids.

artanevilla

Until they are willing to lie about emissions it is unlikely.

mickdw

The thing is you cannot get Toyota reliability in a current diesel while keeping the required efficiency and power. You get complex components that hurt reliability all to bring the official efficiency / emissions to expected levels if even possible without cheating.
It was a brave move for Toyota. While they will lose the trailer pulling farmer types to diesel, they do build reliable hybrids and they will suit a lot of the Toyota clientele.

blackbox

If they can continue the reputation for reliability (and there's no reason to doubt it) you'll soon see hybrids pulling trailers along mucky lanes.

They lost loads of diesel customers to the vag group since the early 00s.
I can see Toyota growing their market share now TBH with their hybrid options.

Leonard Hofstadter

blackbox wrote: »

If they can continue the reputation for reliability (and there's no reason to doubt it) you'll soon see hybrids pulling trailers along mucky lanes.

Isn't the towing capacity on some of the hybrids so low they can't tow anything anyone in rural Ireland may wish to tow? The Auris hybrid certainly had no towing capacity worth talking about anyway.

I think this whole hybrid thing is a bit of a red herring really. Unless you never venture out of town, if you want fuel economy get a diesel, plus the fuel is up to 10 cent a litre cheaper.

Damien360

Augeo wrote: »

They lost loads of diesel customers to the vag group since the early 00s.
I can see Toyota growing their market share now TBH with their hybrid options.

Personally, I think they missed the boat. EV's are getting better range all the time with new cars coming. Range anxiety would be the perfect sell for a hybrid.

But Toyota have become expensive for poorly specced cars compared to the competition. The dash is by and large low quality hard plastics all around.

My wife wanted a Toyota when we changed our 07 avensis. Had a Corolla overnight on test and she hated it. CHR was too cramped in rear and the kids hated it. Too expensive anyway.

Had the Kona for the day and that sold it to her. The plastics are similar but the spec for the money was better. Creature comforts is what she wanted.

Cookie_Monster

Plenty of markets where there has been no diesel toyotas for years (utes/ large suv aside), don't see it being an issue really.

greasepalm

What bothers me is we had a toyota model unsure in for service and found out later it was a bmw engine and loads of errors stored as previous models usually would have no faults stored.OMG.

bazz26

Toyota enjoy a healthy market share in Ireland but in the rest of Europe they their market share is not so big. And Europe was the only market they really offered diesels, so in the big scheme of things they are not really suffering. They have dropped market share here in January due to not having new models launched but this being Ireland and the Irish love affair with Toyota they will regain what they had eventually. Your average Toyota driver isn't going to venture far from the nest so with the current marketing blitz they have across Irish media outlets telling people that hybrids are great I'd say the dip in sales will only be temporary until the parish faithful of Corollas and Avensis with Padre Pio stickers wonder back to the comfort of the dealer they bought the last 10 Toyotas from.

Grab All Association

Brother in law has a 1.3/1.4 litre 2002 petrol Nissan Almera towing horse boxes/cattle and it does the job perfectly. I’d assume the standard 1.6 Corolla petrol will do sufficiently. Corolla will always be an overpriced poverty spec car anyway. It’s like €10k more than it costs new in the USA

JohnBoy26

Damien360 wrote: »

Personally, I think they missed the boat. EV's are getting better range all the time with new cars coming. Range anxiety would be the perfect sell for a hybrid.

But Toyota have become expensive for poorly specced cars compared to the competition. The dash is by and large low quality hard plastics all around.

My wife wanted a Toyota when we changed our 07 avensis. Had a Corolla overnight on test and she hated it. CHR was too cramped in rear and the kids hated it. Too expensive anyway.

Had the Kona for the day and that sold it to her. The plastics are similar but the spec for the money was better. Creature comforts is what she wanted.

I don't know what chr or modern toyota you have been in because the ones I have been in including the chr have a high quality interior with no poor quality plastics they also don't come poorly specced.

The kona has a much lower quality interior than the chr and doesn't drive as well as it either tbh.

JohnBoy26

greasepalm wrote: »

What bothers me is we had a toyota model unsure in for service and found out later it was a bmw engine and loads of errors stored as previous models usually would have no faults stored.OMG.

Only the diesels and the new supra have bmw engines. The rest of the toyota range are toyota powered.

Phileas Frog

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What they will lose they will gain with people looking for hybrids.

Hybrids are a new thing for Toyota then?!

Wildly Boaring

Been done to death on here.

Obviously as a massive worldwide seller of cars they did their research.

Hybrid does not suit a lot of their traditional Irish market. Specifically old boys out the country with a half a farm.

Must work for their sales elsewhere. Asia, Africa, America, Australia etc.

I'd agree with the earlier poster that hybrid doesn't strike me as a solution. They must have EV coming online fast.

sk8board

not sure who people think is planning Toyota's global sales strategy, but rest assured they won't be concerned that farmers in Ireland may be less likely to buy their cars.
Even if the current drop of 35% continues, its not even 4-5,000 units - and on the flip side they don't have to invest in diesel tech, build a whole engine range, nor worry about WLTP..

For context, Toyota sold 10.5m cars in 2018, meaning their whole Irish market is barely 0.1%.

Farmers are all buying dual-cabs these days anyway if my dad and his neighbours are anything to go by, and after a lifetime of diesel hatchbacks as the family car, on Saturday he test drove a karoq petrol automatic (easier to get into. first petrol car for 30 years. first automatic ever).

fancy pigeon

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I don't know what chr or modern toyota you have been in because the ones I have been in including the chr have a high quality interior with no poor quality plastics they also don't come poorly specced.

The kona has a much lower quality interior than the chr and doesn't drive as well as it either tbh.

Conflicting opinions so sneer/run down his wifes car? Can't handle someone who doesn't agree? :rolleyes:


I had a work colleagues Prius for a few days and can say I was pleasantly surprised with how economical it is. The daily commute across small roads, national roads and motorways; where it really shone was in traffic.

When Biddy and Mary cop this when they go to bingo and the shop for the paper, word of mouth will have the roads full of hybrids. I think it's starting to happen

uncle_sam_ie

Toyota are still selling new Land Cruiser's and Hilux's in diesels which is what a farmer in Ireland would be looking at to buy anyway.

Mooooo

Weren't all the diesels in the cars they had for the last number of years bmw engines anyway? Their petrol engines were always considered reliable, majority of people with older Toyotas I know all had the petrols even out here rurally

The 93 to 99 corollas, there was loads of them about in diesel.........admittedly many were jap imports and taxi/hackneys but still.

Carina E diesels weren't rare either.

zilog_jones

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Toyota are still selling new Land Cruiser's and Hilux's in diesels which is what a farmer in Ireland would be looking at to buy anyway.

This.

Only Europe cares about diesel passenger cars, and that's what Toyota were using BMW for diesel engines. The diesel Land Cruiser and Hilux use their own engines, and they aren't going anywhere.

People who think petrol hybrids are inefficient out of town either haven't driven one under 10 years old, or haven't driven one at all. And they are very reliable.

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

............

People who think petrol hybrids are inefficient out of town either haven't driven one under 10 years old, or haven't driven one at all. And they are very reliable.

Indeed, CHR Hybrid driven over 400 miles returned 50mpg for me, an Octavia 1.6 5 speed manual diesel combi returned 55 mpg over the same trip (following year).

I'm sure the CHR could have done better too, it was only my second time driving a hybrid so I was driving it 100% as I'd drive a full ICE powered car.

Leonard Hofstadter

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, CHR Hybrid driven over 400 miles returned 50mpg for me, an Octavia 1.6 5 speed manual diesel combi returned 55 mpg over the same trip (following year).

I'm sure the CHR could have done better too, it was only my second time driving a hybrid so I was driving it 100% as I'd drive a full ICE powered car.

So a diesel is 10% more efficient and about 7% cheaper to fill up when it eventually runs out.

You're not exactly winning me over to the hybrid cause with stats like that;)!

V8 Interceptor

Grab All Association wrote: »

Brother in law has a 1.3/1.4 litre 2002 petrol Nissan Almera towing horse boxes/cattle and it does the job perfectly.

Does it balls

zilog_jones

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

So a diesel is 10% more efficient and about 7% cheaper to fill up when it eventually runs out.

You're not exactly winning me over to the hybrid cause with stats like that;)!

That's not really like-for-like - the C-HR is a crossover so is going to be less efficient than an Octavia, even in estate form. And as they said, they weren't familiar with the car - I always find it takes a bit more time to get used to how an automatic works and how to drive it efficiently (regardless if it's a hybrid or not), compared to a manual which is more of a known quantity.

And fuel is just one thing - you need to look at the total cost of ownership if you're actually going to buy a car as opposed to just renting one.

Del2005

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

So a diesel is 10% more efficient and about 7% cheaper to fill up when it eventually runs out.

You're not exactly winning me over to the hybrid cause with stats like that;)!

Diesel won't always be cheaper than petrol at the pumps. As they killed petrol with higher taxes diesels will be killed the same way.

Leonard Hofstadter

Del2005 wrote: »

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

So a diesel is 10% more efficient and about 7% cheaper to fill up when it eventually runs out.

You're not exactly winning me over to the hybrid cause with stats like that;)!

Diesel won't always be cheaper than petrol at the pumps. As they killed petrol with higher taxes diesels will be killed the same way.

No they won't, they'd get such a backlash from rural Ireland if they did.

What's more likely is they increase the VRT on diesels, as they did in the last budget. Besides, diesel makes up less than half of new car sales these days, so people are already starting to switch away from it.

Diesels were always unsuitable for short distance drivers and after the switch to CO2 taxation far too many people were buying them because of the cheap tax etc, so it is a good thing that fewer of them are sold and we shift back to people only buying them who really need them.

All that said, they always made, and still make, a load of sense for the high mileage motorist, especially if their driving is mostly out of town. They're still the cheapest and most economical option, especially as all the usual potential pitfalls of diesel ownership, like DPF or DMF failure, are not applicable for those kind of motorists. In any case, the latest diesels suffer from DPF failure a lot less than the older cars did.

Leonard Hofstadter

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

So a diesel is 10% more efficient and about 7% cheaper to fill up when it eventually runs out.

You're not exactly winning me over to the hybrid cause with stats like that;)!

I'm not trying to win over anyone to anything.
I spent a nice wad on a diesel myself last year.

A manual 5 speed, diesel Octavia is an absolute POS compared to a CHR ..........reflected in the purchase price of course.

zilog_jones

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

No they won't, they'd get such a backlash from rural Ireland if they did.

Do you think farmers are paying full tax and duty on diesel? Green diesel exists for a reason...

bazz26

Not everyone who lives in rural Ireland owns a farm or has a tank of green diesel out in their backyard.

Del2005

zilog_jones wrote: »

Do you think farmers are paying full tax and duty on diesel? Green diesel exists for a reason...

For the tractor and even then if you want to use a tractor commercially you have to use white diesel. The customs have regular checkpoints dipping tanks.

zilog_jones

bazz26 wrote: »

Not everyone who lives in rural Ireland owns a farm or has a tank of green diesel out in their backyard.

And for those who don't, there's nothing stopping them driving a petrol again, like most of them were 15-20 years ago.

bazz26

zilog_jones wrote: »

And for those who don't, there's nothing stopping them driving a petrol again, like most of them were 15-20 years ago.

But petrol is a fossil fuel too and won't be around for much longer after diesel once the dependency on ICE eventually shifts away. Kicking the can a little further down the road isn't really a solution.

zilog_jones

This thread's about some notion that Toyota will need to start making diesels again, and I'm arguing against that. Toyota don't have any EVs... yet, and they have one expensive PHEV that may suit some (I have one), but for others they have a wide range of very efficient and low-ish emissions petrol cars. I never said petrol's a long-term solution.

uncle_sam_ie

bazz26 wrote: »

But petrol is a fossil fuel too and won't be around for much longer after diesel once the dependency on ICE eventually shifts away. Kicking the can a little further down the road isn't really a solution.

I don't see billion dollar oil companies fading into the sunset anytime soon. Along with all the tax revenue the government gets from fossil fuels. In my life time anyway.

bazz26

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I don't see billion dollar oil companies fading into the sunset anytime soon. Along with all the tax revenue the government gets from fossil fuels. In my life time anyway.

You will get no argument from me.

bazz26

zilog_jones wrote: »

This thread's about some notion that Toyota will need to start making diesels again, and I'm arguing against that. Toyota don't have any EVs... yet, and they have one expensive PHEV that may suit some (I have one), but for others they have a wide range of very efficient and low-ish emissions petrol cars. I never said petrol's a long-term solution.

Agreed but you did say that current diesel users especially in rural Ireland should move back to petrol which is pointless when petrol will probably disappear not long after diesel. Better to make one jump than two eventually when the time comes imo.

road_high

Think it’s a shame Toyota didn’t continue to offer a small diesel offering. They have some lovely new models, a diesel RAV4 in addition to the hybrids and petrol would make it a very attractive package.
Most used Corollas and Auris of recent vintage I seem to see for sale are nearly all diesel as well so it’s a very sudden about turn and not easy for their sales team to covert those that genuinely need a diesel into petrols.

Wildly Boaring

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I don't see billion dollar oil companies fading into the sunset anytime soon. Along with all the tax revenue the government gets from fossil fuels. In my life time anyway.

You know something. I've somehow overlooked that in my thinking that EV will probably kick on now and ICE to phase out gradually. And the next power after EV does for fossil altogether.

These boys have some serious pull worldwide.
In fact they probably have more than the motor industry or the environmental lobby

V8 Interceptor

sk8board wrote: »

Farmers are all buying dual-cabs these days anyway.

There was a time when you wouldn't see sight nor light of a Jeep or Pickup. Farmer Joe would do all his draggin' and haulin' in a 70hp Cortina and he'd be happy for it.

selectamatic

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

. Farmer Joe would do all his draggin' and haulin' in a 70hp Cortina and he'd be happy for it.

He'd be still happy but the RSA wouldn't be...

The changes to towing laws and licences has put the notion of diesel saloons with a towbar as farm stalwarts out to pasture.

V8 Interceptor

How so Sir?

road_high

selectamatic wrote: »

He'd be still happy but the RSA wouldn't be...

The changes to towing laws and licences has put the notion of diesel saloons with a towbar as farm stalwarts out to pasture.

It’s pretty much gone. Most farmers have 4*4s now for towing.
Cars aren’t suited to it and just a bit of light towing if you really must

V8 Interceptor

You can still drag a couple of tonne braked behind you, can't ye? I can't imagine auld Cortinas being able to pull much more. 'Tis a wonder they pulled what they did back in the day.

selectamatic

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

How so Sir?

They haven't got the towing capacity to be of any use.

Take the last Toyota powered d4d avensis for example, a braked towing capacity of 1600kg isn't good enough to do any sorta work. A loaded two cow box would have you over the limit.

There's still plenty of aul boys tipping about as they always have but they're playing a dangerous game. Grand if the local garda turns a blind eye but happen upon an RSA checkpoint and you're jacked.

Younger bucks and fella's towing over a wider area are aware they'll be more prominent on the laws radar so they tend to just bite the bullet and go for a 4x4 or something with at the very least a 2000kg towing capacity.

V8 Interceptor

This lad earlier in the thread is some craic, Selectamatic

Grab All Association wrote: »

Brother in law has a 1.3/1.4 litre 2002 petrol Nissan Almera towing horse boxes/cattle and it does the job perfectly.

greasepalm

I thought they were 1.3 or 1.5?

selectamatic

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

This lad earlier in the thread is some craic, Selectamatic

Sounds like the aul fella who's Facebook famous up around Letterkenny way for hauling all sorts of stuff with a faded red e11 corolla.

colm_mcm

greasepalm wrote: »

I thought they were 1.3 or 1.5?

First gen was 1.4. second gen was 1.5

greasepalm

greasepalm wrote: »

I thought they were 1.3 or 1.5?

The 1.3 didn't make it from the Sunny to the Almera, don't think it even made it into the last Sunny range iirc.