Dublin Wheelers Open Race 2019

CramCycle

Details here:
http://www.dublinwheelers.com/viewpage.php?page_id=105

Last years thread here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106190582
which didn't go ahead in the end

Registration open through CI at the minute, whos up for it. Not sure about the higher up cats but A4 is 42kmph at full gas in case anyone thinks there will be anything close to tactics going on here.

DKmac

Holding an A4 race of up to 110 riders for 42km is grossly irresponsible and a blatant disregard for rider safety.

CramCycle

It is restricted to 80, as are all their races this year.
From their site

Registration for all 3 races will be via Cycling Ireland’s online registration facility. Because of the narrow roads, there will be a limit of 80 competitors in each of the races. Registration on the day will only be possible, if we do not fill our quota – and then only on a ‘first come, first served’ basis up to 80 competitors in each of the events

Dietmar Hamann

DKmac wrote: »

Holding an A4 race of up to 110 riders for 42km is grossly irresponsible and a blatant disregard for rider safety.

All races limited to 80 riders for safety

DKmac

CramCycle wrote: »

It is restricted to 80, as are all their races this year.
From their site

Makes no odds really, 42km is a joke in fairness.

CramCycle

A1, A2 is nearly 90km, A3 is 65km. Having organised plenty of races there over the years, it would be hard to work the timings safely for A4 if you were to increase it too 65km. Not impossible with the speed of the first few A4 races but the truth is that you can never tell what A4s will do in regards speed and effort, a shorter race helps increase the likelihood of pulling the finger out. Make it longer and they may not, so you then have to run it at a later time or not at all. The longest you could run A4 there is 65km and at that you run a risk of cross over if A1 are on form or A4 sit up at all.

I imagine the organisers have a choice between a short A4 race or no A4 race, I am glad they went for the former.

Chips Lovell

CramCycle wrote: »

...whos up for it..

In

daragh_

I got dropped in that A4 race once :cool:

CramCycle

daragh_ wrote: »

I got dropped in that A4 race once :cool:

I had my front tyre stabbed by a chainring but I am sure I would have held on to that A4 race that was north of 60kmph in the first minute and never dropped below 50kmph for the first 6 km, definitely, probably would have been top 10 but I shall never know.

Thank f*ck for that crash or I would have ended up in the back of an ambulance after I vomited my lungs up on the side of the road

smurphy29

DKmac wrote: »

Makes no odds really, 42km is a joke in fairness.

It's neither a joke nor is it 'grossly irresponsible'. The course is tight and the distances are calibrated to avoid races converging on each other.

The argument that A4 races would end in fewer bunch sprints and have less crashes if only the races were longer, apparently enabling a completely different suite of tactics and aggression levels, has very little supporting evidence. If you put the A1s out in a 40km race - and there are plenty of them in the season, in Mondello for example and some of the Saturday evening fixtures - the race would shell to pieces, because the riders will make it so. A4 races end in sprints because of how they are ridden, not because of the distances involved.

CramCycle

smurphy29 wrote: »

It's neither a joke nor is it 'grossly irresponsible'. The course is tight and the distances are calibrated to avoid races converging on each other.

The argument that A4 races would end in fewer bunch sprints and have less crashes if only the races were longer, apparently enabling a completely different suite of tactics and aggression levels, has very little supporting evidence. If you put the A1s out in a 40km race - and there are plenty of them in the season, in Mondello for example and some of the Saturday evening fixtures - the race would shell to pieces, because the riders will make it so. A4 races end in sprints because of how they are ridden, not because of the distances involved.

Considering my experience of this race, and others on the circuit, while there is occasionally bunch sprints (I only recall one where everyone slowed to crawl 200m from the line, I decided to sit up as it was wall to wall and no point sprinting for 30th), typically if its short, the hammer is down for most of the race, loads get destroyed by the pace, a few daredevils take off from the corner which kills off the last few and they are caught and overtaken with 200m left.

DKmac

smurphy29 wrote: »

It's neither a joke nor is it 'grossly irresponsible'. The course is tight and the distances are calibrated to avoid races converging on each other.

The argument that A4 races would end in fewer bunch sprints and have less crashes if only the races were longer, apparently enabling a completely different suite of tactics and aggression levels, has very little supporting evidence. If you put the A1s out in a 40km race - and there are plenty of them in the season, in Mondello for example and some of the Saturday evening fixtures - the race would shell to pieces, because the riders will make it so. A4 races end in sprints because of how they are ridden, not because of the distances involved.

Do 80 lads sign on in Mondello in the one category? You might get 80 across the whole race on a completely different course.

42km is a joke for an open race. 90% of the starting line will be there at the finish regardless of the pace.

Paddy Flanagan Kildare 2 years ago <50km same story- huge crash, this race in 2017 and 2015 same story.

smurphy29

DKmac wrote: »

Do 80 lads sign on in Mondello in the one category? You might get 80 across the whole race on a completely different course.

42km is a joke for an open race. 90% of the starting line will be there at the finish regardless of the pace.

Paddy Flanagan Kildare 2 years ago <50km same story- huge crash, this race in 2017 and 2015 same story.

Yes indeed. And I could mention plenty of longer races where there were crashes too, both in A4 and in other cats. The number of crashes or size of field at the end of the race has very little to do with the distance, but how the riders race it.

CramCycle

I'm going from the gun, and then when I am caught, I am going from the last turn. Like I've said, your choices are no A4 race or this. If you don't like this, don't sign up. A1, 2 and 3 are longer.

I plan to ride it like I stole it. If riders hit the first time up Doreys forge with a good bit of pace, there will be no worries about a mass sprint at the end. As others have said, crashes are caused by the riders not the organisers in races like this, drill it in to them at the start that if they are not up in the top 20 with 300m to go, call it a day because they are not going to be.

elchupanebrey

DKmac wrote: »

Do 80 lads sign on in Mondello in the one category? You might get 80 across the whole race on a completely different course.

42km is a joke for an open race. 90% of the starting line will be there at the finish regardless of the pace.

Paddy Flanagan Kildare 2 years ago <50km same story- huge crash, this race in 2017 and 2015 same story.

Just curious what length the race you organise is?

Plastik

Plenty scope to run separate A1 and A2 90km races at 10.30 which would be over for 12.30, and separate A3 and A4 65km (or longer) races starting at 12.15-12.30 and still be finished early. But in the context of the farce of a season last year, you just have to take what you can get.

I still haven't bothered buying a licence this year. There's only so many races cancelled and 1pm Sunday starts you can endure before you question whether it's worth the effort to be lumped in with A1 fields as packfill.

JimmiesRustled

CramCycle wrote: »

Thank f*ck for that crash or I would have ended up in the back of an ambulance after I vomited my lungs up on the side of the road

I was in that race and got 2nd. I think it was a bit of an anomaly. Shane Smith was racing as well that day. We were both up to A2 3 months into the season.

It's a good, hard circuit and there should be no major issue in the decent riders shedding lads up Dorey's forge.

JimmiesRustled

Plastik wrote: »

Plenty scope to run separate A1 and A2 90km races at 10.30 which would be over for 12.30, and separate A3 and A4 65km (or longer) races starting at 12.15-12.30 and still be finished early. But in the context of the farce of a season last year, you just have to take what you can get.

I still haven't bothered buying a licence this year. There's only so many races cancelled and 1pm Sunday starts you can endure before you question whether it's worth the effort to be lumped in with A1 fields as packfill.

Who doesn't love putting in 12-15 hours a week during the winter and beyond only to be lumped in with A1 riders?

I'm kidding but it is pretty demoralising putting in a decent amount of time only to get unceremoniously dropped by lads who are pretty much full time riders.

buffalo

Plastik wrote: »

I still haven't bothered buying a licence this year. There's only so many races cancelled and 1pm Sunday starts you can endure before you question whether it's worth the effort to be lumped in with A1 fields as packfill.

While I'm no fan of the late starts, I'll always welcome an envelope over points! :pac:

Galego

What time does the A4 race start?

Taxuser1

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Who doesn't love putting in 12-15 hours a week during the winter and beyond only to be lumped in with A1 riders?

I'm kidding but it is pretty demoralising putting in a decent amount of time only to get unceremoniously dropped by lads who are pretty much full time riders.

I'd say a small percentage are full timers. Some doing 50 hour working weeks and as someone said earlier, pack fodder for the more talented lads. 15-20 hours seems a lot for average trainers at whatever level, I'd struggle to get 12 on average.

eeeee

The Newry Wheelers motions at the AGM means there are going to be more A2's this year than in the last few years - all A1 riders who didn't score points automatically became A2's, so I'm imagining the A2 field will be bigger than the A1 one! unless the points are very evenly spread across A1 riders.

CramCycle

nee wrote: »

The Newry Wheelers motions at the AGM means there are going to be more A2's this year than in the last few years - all A1 riders who didn't score points automatically became A2's, so I'm imagining the A2 field will be bigger than the A1 one! unless the points are very evenly spread across A1 riders.

Which will create the same problem of former A1s mopping up the points and the issue we had years ago where there were not enough numbers to host an A1 field.

Not that this matters a jot to me in A4

CramCycle

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

I was in that race and got 2nd. I think it was a bit of an anomaly. Shane Smith was racing as well that day. We were both up to A2 3 months into the season.

It's a good, hard circuit and there should be no major issue in the decent riders shedding lads up Dorey's forge.

I've never forgiven any of you for that day :mad:

eeeee

CramCycle wrote: »

Which will create the same problem of former A1s mopping up the points and the issue we had years ago where there were not enough numbers to host an A1 field.

Not that this matters a jot to me in A4

They also raised the points it takes to get out of A4, made it more difficult to get out of A3 too- halving A3 points, this recreating the problems largely ameliorated by 2017's AGM :rolleyes: it's baffling they got through.
People really need to stay going to the AGM, myself included.

Harrybelafonte

Great race... I know I do not partake in the racing of the bicycles anymore but I do think Cram is right. I raced that course four years in a row and every crash etc was because of carelessness and inexperience on riders' part, not really numbers. It gets super strung out from the go (you can get dropped in the first 5km or burn out). People bomb down the slope after Mullagh's Cross forgetting there's basically a chicane there. The first nudge up drops a few, the pace on the Trim Road drops a few, but it also has a weird tendency to catch some in the wind you can't hide from and arseholes doing anything to get to the front. Then, it suddenly narrows again after the next junction and everyone is trying to get to the front in silly places again. Long decent. and then you hit Dorey's forge, then realise that wasn't Dorey's Forge at all and that was only a bump and then you hit Dorey's Forge and about a quarter of the A4 riders are in the wrong gear, so if you're anywhere near the back, you have like a 25% chance of getting stuck behind one of them. If so, you're done, if not do it all again, including forgeting that hill isn't Dorey's Forge, it's the one after.

buffalo

nee wrote: »

They also raised the points it takes to get out of A4, made it more difficult to get out of A3 too- halving A3 points, this recreating the problems largely ameliorated by 2017's AGM :rolleyes: it's baffling they got through.
People really need to stay going to the AGM, myself included.

I didn't understand it on the day myself. There were people giving out that it's too hard to get points in A3 toward an upgrade with a lot of Juniors placing, then later on the same people voted to reduce the points an A3 held at the end of the year!

eeeee

buffalo wrote: »

I didn't understand it on the day myself. There were people giving out that it's too hard to get points in A3 toward an upgrade with a lot of Juniors placing, then later on the same people voted to reduce the points an A3 held at the end of the year!

Yep, I am completely baffled by it. Hopefully some club will propose motions against them at this year's AGM, every one of those Newry Wheelers motions seemed really regressive.

CramCycle

buffalo wrote: »

I didn't understand it on the day myself. There were people giving out that it's too hard to get points in A3 toward an upgrade with a lot of Juniors placing, then later on the same people voted to reduce the points an A3 held at the end of the year!

I presume a load of Newry riders got upgraded and didn't enjoy races as much when they were not placing?

Chips Lovell

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Who doesn't love putting in 12-15 hours a week during the winter and beyond only to be lumped in with A1 riders?

I'm kidding but it is pretty demoralising putting in a decent amount of time only to get unceremoniously dropped by lads who are pretty much full time riders.

If you're training 12-15 hours a week and you're still getting dropped, then you're doing something wrong. There aren't many A2s who're doing more than that and most of them can hang in there just fine.

As Taxuser says, there's only a handful of A1s who're anything near full time. Most of them are working jobs like the rest of us.

fat bloke

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

If you're training 12-15 hours a week and you're still getting dropped, then you're doing something wrong. There aren't many A2s who're doing more than that and most of them can hang in there just fine.

As Taxuser says, there's only a handful of A1s who're anything near full time. Most of them are working jobs like the rest of us.

Full time who'res, part-time who'res, - where did ye say this was on again?! :pac:

dahat

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

If you're training 12-15 hours a week and you're still getting dropped, then you're doing something wrong. There aren't many A2s who're doing more than that and most of them can hang in there just fine.

As Taxuser says, there's only a handful of A1s who're anything near full time. Most of them are working jobs like the rest of us.

Some lads are just too bloody fast..

magicbastarder

out of curiosity, what sort of average pace would be set in a race like this?
speaking as someone unused to cycling in a group, happy to hit 30k/h average on a flattish solo run. i will *not* be entering.

eeeee

It's not the average speed of a race that makes it hard, it's the changing pace and it's not necessarily one you set poor are comfortable with. So it's often hard when you're struggling the most, or you make it hard in the hope everyone's struggling more than you. Sprinting out of corners, attacking, breaks, riding the break back, trying to keep a break going, and all that.
Average speed doesn't tell most of the story at all. There's no non racing situation or way to describe how hard (and sometimes not so hard, but mostly hard at some point ) racing is, not even intervals.
You just have to try it!

magicbastarder

racing sounds like a lot of work. too much work.

Harrybelafonte

It starts on a bit of an incline, so you kind of drop down to flat and it rises slowly again after a few k. It starts really fast, which can catch people off guard. It’s fast enough, but it has some nasty little hills in it, at least two and that’s what really knocks it out of you.

queldy

magicbastarder wrote: »

out of curiosity, what sort of average pace would be set in a race like this?
speaking as someone unused to cycling in a group, happy to hit 30k/h average on a flattish solo run. i will *not* be entering.

A4 in 2016 was 37.8 km/h.
It's all about pace changes, as already said by others. Sometimes the group cruises at 25 km/h, even less

wav1

The points going from a4 to a3 were not increased at agm.still the same

CramCycle

Weather looks like it is going to break, proper cycling weather, the rain is starting just before the race and finishing just after, temperatures predicted of 2 to 4 degrees , and a head wind up to the finish. This is going to be AWESOME

daragh_

CramCycle wrote: »

Weather looks like it is going to break, proper cycling weather, the rain is starting just before the race and finishing just after, temperatures predicted of 2 to 4 degrees , and a head wind up to the finish. This is going to be AWESOME

Hmmm. Rethinking my plan to spin out and watch you win.

dahat

All lads get back ok? Some sort of a crash on the A4 race according the twitter feed of Dublin Wheelers.

dahat

Weepsie wrote: »

They said all riders were up soon after

Missed that tweet, good to hear.

wirelessdude01

Weepsie wrote:

They said all riders were up soon after

Heard a frame was snapped in half after it.

Galego

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Heard a frame was snapped in half after it.

I thought I saw a couple snapped but hard to tell between all the caos which was going on.

The thing is that the crash happened in the least expected place imo. Really takes nothing for 20 people to hit the ground......hopefully everyone is ok and was just bike damage.

dahat

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Heard a frame was snapped in half after it.

That's nearly worse than body hurt (within reason of course)

CramCycle

I was in the middle of the main crash. To be fair, DW organised a cracking race and for a lap and a half, the riding was OK, braking was dodgy in places but no worse than usual. One young lad deserved a clout for overtaking into oncoming traffic, not sure the Comms seen it but the bunch gave him a bollicking. Disc and rim brakes seemed to cause no issues except the cries of anguish from them as they were applied randomly. Alot slower than the last few years bar the guy I missed going on a break. Had a few digs myself but nothing sticking, overall not very fast compared to previous years. Crosswinds were sketchy and I opted to take them head on without shelter as everyone blew right, I just leaned into it and overtook the bunch on the inside.

Crash happened on an incline, about 30km an hour, rider ahead to my left switched out and braked on a Tiernans rider. They both came down, and me along with it. I hit the ground and there were already 3 bikes in front of me on the ground. I wrapped my arms round my head and tries to avoid jamming my face into the chainring in front of my face as a few bikes hit me in the back. Looked like 15 in total came down.
One guys brand new CAAD12 snapped the rear triangle. My rear wheel landed 5m down the road and my bike on front of me which I can't figure out. Everyone was OK in general, bikes took a worse battering. Hung around witth the other walking wounded until everyone found a way to move on. Haven't assessed the damage to my bike, right arse cheek is to sore to sit on and my right wrist is getting sorer by the minute.
As crashes go, while the financial cost is going to be a bit for a few riders, everyone was fit to stand so not to bad at the end of the day.
Overall a great start to the season and DW should be happy they put on a good show.

eeeee

Jesus get yourself looked at cram, a cousin of mine broke his scaphoid for 6 weeks before it was spotted and it required surgery.

dahat

Sorry to hear you were invovled and to echo Nee I'd get to a&e for xrays.

CramCycle

Thanks, a minor sprain from how I hit the ground but will get it looked at in work on Monday.

Macy0161

I can also confirm being up and walking (and driving home) isn't necessarily the sign everything is OK.

paul-2008

CramCycle wrote: »

I was in the middle of the main crash. To be fair, DW organised a cracking race and for a lap and a half, the riding was OK, braking was dodgy in places but no worse than usual. One young lad deserved a clout for overtaking into oncoming traffic, not sure the Comms seen it but the bunch gave him a bollicking. Disc and rim brakes seemed to cause no issues except the cries of anguish from them as they were applied randomly. Alot slower than the last few years bar the guy I missed going on a break. Had a few digs myself but nothing sticking, overall not very fast compared to previous years. Crosswinds were sketchy and I opted to take them head on without shelter as everyone blew right, I just leaned into it and overtook the bunch on the inside.

Crash happened on an incline, about 30km an hour, rider ahead to my left switched out and braked on a Tiernans rider. They both came down, and me along with it. I hit the ground and there were already 3 bikes in front of me on the ground. I wrapped my arms round my head and tries to avoid jamming my face into the chainring in front of my face as a few bikes hit me in the back. Looked like 15 in total came down.
One guys brand new CAAD12 snapped the rear triangle. My rear wheel landed 5m down the road and my bike on front of me which I can't figure out. Everyone was OK in general, bikes took a worse battering. Hung around witth the other walking wounded until everyone found a way to move on. Haven't assessed the damage to my bike, right arse cheek is to sore to sit on and my right wrist is getting sorer by the minute.
As crashes go, while the financial cost is going to be a bit for a few riders, everyone was fit to stand so not to bad at the end of the day.
Overall a great start to the season and DW should be happy they put on a good show.

I was unfortunate enough to be involved in this myself too. Despite being on the opposite side of the bunch as it came down. All I can remember is hearing the crash, seeing a bike in front of me on the ground and the next thing I knew my face was smashed into the ground!! All good and managed to get back onto the bike after a few minutes of assessing my legs and bike. Knee is quite swollen at the moment but nothing a few days rest wont heal (I hope). And thankfully the bike is ok. Seemed like a mental place to crash and I'm still not really sure what happened but I guess thats the joys of A4 racing.