Obesity crisis in Ireland Mod Note post 1

Dalomanakora

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

I was reading about how sepsis each year is responsible for more deaths than bowel, breast, and pancreatic cancer combined. These deaths are totally preventable, but we don't hear much discussion about it, unlike the constant noise about obesity.

I had it last year and didn't even realise it was so dangerous! It was only when the hospital had me admitted to a ward within minutes and were literally squeezing the bags of IV antibiotics to get them into me faster that I realised it was serious!

Kilo of carrots 49c, kilo of baby potatoes €1.
1.5kg chicken fillets are a tenner. Tin of chopped tomatoes are under a Euro. Dried chillies etc are very cheap. Bags of rice are cheap etc etc.

Good quality, nutritious, whole foods aren't expensive....neither are spices and seasoning.

Crappy takeaway €7+...

igCorcaigh

Well, you see I just have this vision of state subsidised community "cantinas" where people could go after work, with their families and friends to all sit together and eat healthy and flavourful simple food.

Leveraging the economies of scale and local produce to help producers and consumers.

It would/should be far cheaper and less time consuming to create food in this communal way, than for each household to travel to the supermarket, buy their groceries, cook the food all while working to the limit.

Zorya

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Well, you see I just have this vision of state subsidised community "cantinas" where people could go after work, with their families and friends to all sit together and eat healthy and flavourful simple food.

Leveraging the economies of scale and local produce to help producers and consumers.

It would/should be far cheaper and less time consuming to create food in this communal way, than for each household to travel to the supermarket, buy their groceries, cook the food all while working to the limit.

But would we have party anthems and ethically-sourced uniforms, comrade? I quite like a nice sexy uniform

igCorcaigh

Zorya wrote: »

But would we have party anthems and ethically-sourced uniforms, comrade? I quite like a nice sexy uniform

Yes we most certainly would. Or, at least us inner party types.

Dakotabigone

Passed a Macdonalds there on bypass and it looks busy. Drive through big queue.

TerrorFirmer

Comparing the cost of eating healthily to the cost of eating a single meal at McDonalds or getting a Chinese takeaway is a pointless exercise. If you got a healthy takeaway salad from Mixed Greens, it'd cost the same.

What you're really comparing to, is the fact that you could go into Lidl, Tesco or Aldi and get a frozen pizza and 1KG of frozen chips and feed 3 people for about €2, which requires zero effort other than turning the oven on.

It's a combination of low cost and zero effort.

GAA Beo

Cake Man wrote: »

Just curious but why do you say eating a healthy diet costs a bomb? Fruit and veg is generally cheap (you don’t have to buy the out of season organic gooseberries which cost 10x as much as your standard apples/oranges etc), you can make cuts of meat go a long way (again, you don’t have to be going after the prime cuts of fillet Mignon). I can assure you getting take aways or delivery every night is certainly not going to work out cheaper so I just don’t get this concept of eating healthily is too expensive.

The cost of fast food has went through the roof also, it went up again with the VAT increase last month. It is no longer cheaper than good food, unsurprising as they're doing so well. You could now realistically get a cheaper meal in many restaurants than fast food takeaways.

wakka12

Cake Man wrote: »

Just curious but why do you say eating a healthy diet costs a bomb? Fruit and veg is generally cheap (you don’t have to buy the out of season organic gooseberries which cost 10x as much as your standard apples/oranges etc), you can make cuts of meat go a long way (again, you don’t have to be going after the prime cuts of fillet Mignon). I can assure you getting take aways or delivery every night is certainly not going to work out cheaper so I just don’t get this concept of eating healthily is too expensive.

Well Im not comparing it to expensive takeaways. Theres really filling fattening foods and carbs that are ready made and eaisly available everywhere in supermarkets, frozen pizzas etc, can get a huge tasty one for 3-4 euro is much cheaper than any healthy home made meal can be made for,yes theres cheap vegetables and fruit but my comparison was to the tasty, quick cheap unhealthy foods

Youll never find a cheap oven ready pack with cauliflower rice/veg and some lean meat with a nice low sugar/low salt sauce on it, for instance
Have to slog it out cooking and buying all the ingredients individually so you know youre not unknowingly consuming unhealthy ****e

wakka12

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Comparing the cost of eating healthily to the cost of eating a single meal at McDonalds or getting a Chinese takeaway is a pointless exercise. If you got a healthy takeaway salad from Mixed Greens, it'd cost the same.

What you're really comparing to, is the fact that you could go into Lidl, Tesco or Aldi and get a frozen pizza and 1KG of frozen chips and feed 3 people for about €2, which requires zero effort other than turning the oven on.

It's a combination of low cost and zero effort.

Exactly, you could have a very tasty diet on fast food like that with no effort and save so much more money than a healthy diet

Eating healthy is definitely expensive, its no wonder that obesity is much more common in poorer communities

Wanderer2010

I think regardless of your opinion on the causes of obesity, anyone involved in being fattist is as bad a character as a racist. Its a form of bullying to fat shame someone else and really, does absolutely nothing to help the situation. People know they are obese 100%, they don't need mocking on the issue. I find it mad the recent rise in people commenting on other peoples food in the workplace. Every day you get comments like "Is that organic, oh I wouldn't touch meat like that, do you know how many calories are in that wrap...etc".

I have a friend who is morbidly obese and I have never nor will I ever comment on her food choices, its simply none of my business what she chooses to eat and drink and its not something that I would ever consider commenting on, I like the person as she is, her appearance is her business.

Doctor Jimbob

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I think regardless of your opinion on the causes of obesity, anyone involved in being fattist is as bad a character as a racist. Its a form of bullying to fat shame someone else and really, does absolutely nothing to help the situation. People know they are obese 100%, they don't need mocking on the issue. I find it mad the recent rise in people commenting on other peoples food in the workplace. Every day you get comments like "Is that organic, oh I wouldn't touch meat like that, do you know how many calories are in that wrap...etc".

I have a friend who is morbidly obese and I have never nor will I ever comment on her food choices, its simply none of my business what she chooses to eat and drink and its not something that I would ever consider commenting on, I like the person as she is, her appearance is her business.

I agree that it's not right to bully people for their weight but comparable to racism? Not a chance.

Wanderer2010

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I agree that it's not right to bully people for their weight but comparable to racism? Not a chance.

Is there that much of a disparity? A racist mocks other races, hates them and spreads lies about them, they dislike everything about them based solely on the colour of their skin. A fattist also hates heavy people, spreads rumours and cruel lies about them, mocks them in public and generally hold the view that because someone is obese, that that is the sum of their parts and no other aspect of their lives is worthy of attention. They are the same in my book.

A point I have often made about fattists though is the fact that, with such a high percentage of Irish kids and adults being overweight or obese, its no longer something unusual. In fact (rightly or wrongly) its the norm so why mock the norm? I never understood that..

wakka12

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I agree that it's not right to bully people for their weight but comparable to racism? Not a chance.

Treating people differently(negatively) based on how they look, very comparable
I would doubt if you asked an obese asian or black person that they think the racism bullying is worse than whats said to them about their weight
Anyway fatism is even worse because its socially acceptable, racists are publicly hung drawn and quartered, hatred of obese people is encouraged by most of society

TerrorFirmer

Being a racist is judging someone on something they have no control over whatsoever - the color of their skin, their ethnic origin, whatever. Not quite the same as judging someone who eats to excess, whatever the reason behind their choices, but at a fundamental level it is a choice.

There are some people who are overweight because they've got severe underlying issues, but the vast majority of overweight people in Ireland are, plainly, that way because they enjoy indulgence and poor food choices too much, with lack of exercise and activity a significant secondary factor.

Dyr

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I think regardless of your opinion on the causes of obesity, anyone involved in being fattist is as bad a character as a racist. Its a form of bullying to fat shame someone else and really, does absolutely nothing to help the situation.

Really? Shame can be a great oul motivator.

pumpkin4life

Old Rudge wrote: »

When obesity is discussed, no one ever asks why does a lean man stay lean instead they ask how can we make a fat person lean.


I've been very active all my life; but twice in the last 2 years I've had a couple of periods of over 5 weeks with no exercise. Zero difference in weight.


If I eat differently, eat a lot of crap it makes no difference my body fat will stay stuck at 12-14%. I don't have to think about it.


Ask me to get to 6% and stay there long term is the equivalent of asking a 40% bf male to get to 20% and stay there.


It is not going to happen. The biology regulating it(over which there is no real controversy in the scientific community) will ensure I have a hugely increased appetite, reduced NEAT, fatigue, high calorie foods seem ever more rewarding etc. A system evolved to get my ancestors through hard times on the savannah will ensure I get back to 12-14%.


I won't get call a fat cnut though.

Lean peoples body fat regulation system works. If they overeat their bodies compensate by increasing NEAT primarily. Dr James Levine had a good study where they could identify lean/obese people by just how much they got up/ rather than continually sat at work. An obese person in a deficit and exercising will typically drop there already lower NEAT

Obese peoples bodies, in most cases are broken. There is no fix in the long term for most. That's pretty sad but true.


Education for young mothers, before they are pregnant is best strategy for the coming generations.

Exactly. Throw in excessive insulin that causes the body issues with getting access to energy and leptin insensitivity which causes you to remain hungrier for longer and for more food, and you've got a time bomb on your hands.

The obese people are lazy types is bollox. They eat more because the hormone that controls hunger and satiation is not working (leptin) so they have to eat more, and they store more fat due to the body's difficulty in gaining access in energy in the cells (insulin).

People who talk about calories in and calories out have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

The way you fix obesity is by eating foods that cause leptin and insulin to work better, so that your body becomes highly sensitive to both: ie, you eat less/feel full quicker and you have quick and easy access to energy.

Your body is not a linear system.

You do this by eating meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts and by eating few carbohydrates.

wakka12

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Being a racist is judging someone on something they have no control over whatsoever - the color of their skin, their ethnic origin, whatever. Not quite the same as judging someone who eats to excess, whatever the reason behind their choices, but at a fundamental level it is a choice.

There are some people who are overweight because they've got severe underlying issues, but the vast majority of overweight people in Ireland are, plainly, that way because they enjoy indulgence and poor food choices too much, with lack of exercise and activity a significant secondary factor.

And so what if it was because of their choice?Why do people feel the right to comment negatively on somebodys appearance just because they are responsible for it? It takes a very long to get to normal weight if you are obese, so its not like its going to a be quick overnight change. I dont think 'fatism' should be any more acceptable than racism

wakka12

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Exactly. Throw in excessive insulin that causes the body issues with getting access to energy and leptin insensitivity which causes you to remain hungrier for longer and for more food, and you've got a time bomb on your hands.

The obese people are lazy types is bollox. They eat more because the hormone that controls hunger and satiation is not working (leptin) so they have to eat more, and they store more fat due to the body's difficulty in gaining access in energy in the cells (insulin).

People who talk about calories in and calories out have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

The way you fix obesity is by eating foods that cause leptin and insulin to work better, so that your body becomes highly sensitive to both: ie, you eat less/feel full quicker and you have quick and easy access to energy.

Your body is not a linear system.

You do this by eating meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts and by eating few carbohydrates.

Theres nothing necessarily wrong with carbohydrates, lots of people have very healthy diets with large amounts of whole grain carbs and pulses

pumpkin4life

pumpkin4life wrote: »

..
...

People who talk about calories in and calories out have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

The way you fix obesity is by eating foods that cause leptin and insulin to work better, so that your body becomes highly sensitive to both: ie, you eat less/feel full quicker and you have quick and easy access to energy.

Your body is not a linear system.

You do this by eating meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts and by eating few carbohydrates.

If your maintenance kcals is 2500kcal/day and if you eat 3000kcals of
meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts per day you'll gain 1 pound a week.
That is 100% fact.

It really is as simple as a calorie deficit will result in weight loss....it's incredibly basic stuff.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Old Rudge wrote: »

When obesity is discussed, no one ever asks why does a lean man stay lean instead they ask how can we make a fat person lean.


I've been very active all my life; but twice in the last 2 years I've had a couple of periods of over 5 weeks with no exercise. Zero difference in weight.


If I eat differently, eat a lot of crap it makes no difference my body fat will stay stuck at 12-14%. I don't have to think about it.


Ask me to get to 6% and stay there long term is the equivalent of asking a 40% bf male to get to 20% and stay there.


It is not going to happen. The biology regulating it(over which there is no real controversy in the scientific community) will ensure I have a hugely increased appetite, reduced NEAT, fatigue, high calorie foods seem ever more rewarding etc. A system evolved to get my ancestors through hard times on the savannah will ensure I get back to 12-14%.


I won't get call a fat cnut though.

Lean peoples body fat regulation system works. If they overeat their bodies compensate by increasing NEAT primarily. Dr James Levine had a good study where they could identify lean/obese people by just how much they got up/ rather than continually sat at work. An obese person in a deficit and exercising will typically drop there already lower NEAT

Obese peoples bodies, in most cases are broken. There is no fix in the long term for most. That's pretty sad but true.


Education for young mothers, before they are pregnant is best strategy for the coming generations.

Absolutely. The importance of epigenetics is becoming more and more clear. My mother struggled with weight later in life but was slim in early life and all her pregnancies and she had two skinny kids and a slightly chubby one.

Really interesting post. But prepare for it be dismissed.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

wakka12 wrote: »

I agree, I wish producers just made simpler foods with less ingredients. For instance most tomato based pasta sauces taste fine without the extra sugar and salt added, yet its difficult to find a single one in most supermarkets that isnt unncessarily loaded with both. I know we can make it ourselves in a healthy way and I do that sometimes but I just wish there were more simple,fast cheap alternatives for dinenrs that you could buy in supermarkets that werent horrifically bad for your health

Its really so difficult to eat a healthy and tasty diet that doesnt cost a bomb or take a lot of time to prepare. I would say Im only moderately healthy and am very aware of the labels and what Im putting into my body,I cant imagine how unhealthy most people are who hardly give a **** about what theyre buying/eating


I wish quinoa/lentils were the standard fare in restuarants too rather than white pasta and rice, seems to be hard to find anything other than two in most restuarants. I dont think they taste so much better than healthy pulses/wholegrains,and the cost and prepapration time are comparable, its such a needless health sacrficie that is commonplace throughout the entire world

Problem is, removing these preseratives will contribute greatly to food waste, as supermarkets wouldn’t be able sell them all before they go off. This is where I think teaching people how easy it to cook things from scratch comes in. I always make my own tomato sauce. It takes me, ooh, about two minutes longer than opening and emptying the jar of Ragu would. It is SO ridiculously easy. And Ragu and its ilk are generally mank. Homemade tomato sauce is way nicer, even if just using chopped tinned tomatoes which don’t use sugar as a preservative. Or salt either, I think.

I reeeaally have to disagree that cooking good food from scratch is expensive. I learned how to cook properly in college for health but also because it made the most financial sense for a broke college student. And I did NOT go hungry. I was well-fed.

The growing Western lust for quinoa is making it too expensive in South American countries where it’s a staple. I steer clear. Give me potatoes or rice any day. Just as easy to eat small portions of them that will not cause weight gain. Just as easy to eat way too much quinoa. As someone who finds both quinoa and lentils dull, I’d be devastated if they became the standard carbs in restaurants.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Being a racist is judging someone on something they have no control over whatsoever - the color of their skin, their ethnic origin, whatever. Not quite the same as judging someone who eats to excess, whatever the reason behind their choices, but at a fundamental level it is a choice.

There are some people who are overweight because they've got severe underlying issues, but the vast majority of overweight people in Ireland are, plainly, that way because they enjoy indulgence and poor food choices too much, with lack of exercise and activity a significant secondary factor.

Aye, but we all have weaknesses in our lives. If you’re a human, you have a personal failing of some sort or other. I’d put good money that a good proportion of vocal critics on this thread drink too much. Or are skinny-fat.

I don’t like people being vocally disapproving to smokers to their face either.

Not one of us is perfect. So why is it okay to judge obese people? Because their flaw is advertised on their person?

Augeo wrote: »

If your maintenance kcals is 2500kcal/day and if you eat 3000kcals of
meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts per day you'll gain 1 pound a week.
That is 100% fact.

It really is as simple as a calorie deficit will result in weight loss....it's incredibly basic stuff.

Everyone knows this. But, guess what? Humans aren’t basic.

But some, you being the most obdurate, are wilfully ignoring that creating that deficit causes much more issues in long-term obese people.

You tried to discredit people by citing your degree in ‘Actual Science’ (discipline not yet confirmed) but that hasn’t worked out so well for you. And your lack of intellectual curiosity on the whole topic makes me seriously question whether that qualification even exists.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Aye, but we all have weaknesses in our lives. If you’re a human, you have a personal failing of some sort or other. I’d put good money that a good proportion of vocal critics on this thread drink too much. Or are skinny-fat.

I don’t people like being vocally disapproving to smokers to their face either.

Not one of us is perfect. So why is it okay to judge obese people? Because their flaw is advertised on their person?



Everyone knows this. But, guess what? Humans aren’t basic.

But some, you being the most obdurate, are wilfully ignoring that creating that deficit causes much more issues in long-term obese people.

You tried to discredit people by citing your degree in ‘Actual Science’ (discipline not yet confirmed) but that hasn’t worked out so well for you. And your lack of intellectual curiosity on the whole topic makes me seriously question whether that qualification even exists.

Lol...... I'm intellectually above being curious why a minority of obese folk allegedly have some infinite hunger inside them that awakens when they attempt to lose weight.

If folk ate their maintenance cals in nutritious, low calorie dense food they wouldn't go hungry....they simply don't bother as they don't or won't persevere. Can't doesn't come into it for the majority.

What my science degree is in is immaterial as you well know and I honestly couldn't care less if someone (you) questions it's existence. Let's pretend for you I have zero education

I'm hardly going to post proof of it along with ID etc so you keep on doubting I have it. Keep on reading dubious papers on why a minority of fat fnckers can't lose weight & I'll keep on chuckling (at you primarily at this stage) ....write another essay reply there..... go on...we all want to read it..

Zorya

Well, there's progress, the fat cnuts have morphed into fat fnukers and I am stress-eating cake with the tension. Thanks everybody.

Zorya

Zorya wrote: »

Well, there's progress, the fat cnuts have morphed into fat fnukers and I am stress-eating cake with the tension. Thanks everybody.

I'm going for 6 rice cakes and 250g of vanilla soft cheese

Elemonator

It's staggering. I live beside the local school and I don't necessarily believe it is a bad diet at home. I see kids in the local shop ordering chicken rolls. Meal deals include soft drink and crisps. All in for 3 euros. The healthy options prices are far in excess of that. Not only that, but the fact that bad diet options are cheaper and fall into whats affordable for small kids pocket money when they are hanging out with their friends only intensifies the problem. That is the real killer.

I'd say it happens obviously more often in "rich" societies anyway, as parents and children can afford to eat away from the home in excess, the price has come down, we earn more and most families have two cars.

There are exceptions to that though, from what I've seen there was nowhere near as many obese people in Scandinavia where I was there.

The solution is probably to have an expanded dietary and exercise education in schools. This is already happening with physical education being added to the Leaving Cert. I know in the Junior Cycle we touched upon it in SPHE. To add to that, they should be taught the science of exercise. What exercises to do, how to do them, make them goal specific. The goal should be to reward students with Leaving Cert points to give them an incentive to listen and undertake the course. The way PE is taught at Junior Cycle should be changed. I know when I was in school I couldn't care less about playing badminton, I wanted football. You can get a great workout in PE. Adding kettlebells would be a low cost bonus in my opinion.

Old Rudge

Augeo wrote: »

If your maintenance kcals is 2500kcal/day and if you eat 3000kcals of
meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, green veg, greek yogurt, nuts per day you'll gain 1 pound a week.
That is 100% fact.

It really is as simple as a calorie deficit will result in weight loss....it's incredibly basic stuff.

Nope.

One side of the equation has an effect on the other; the effect will vary from person to person.

For an effortless lean person like me, I will gain nothing near a pound. My NEAT will automatically go up, when I take exercise I will be more energetic and feel like doing more/going harder. I'd probably gain less than half a pound and lose it very quickly after stopping excess feeding.

An obese or formally obese person will be really efficient in adding most of the excess energy to mass. After the excess feeding most of the mass will stay to.

There are loads of overfeeding studies which show this, with large study sizes.

Getting people to consistently overeat, so they gain mass has been traditional very difficult for researchers; once you keep food to what people are used to they just stop eating, eventually skip meals etc. Add in a lot of junk food and things change though.


There is a spectrum across humanity in terms of how much the system which regulates body fat is damaged as a result of exposure to an obesogenic environment; someone like me will eventually get fat if I eat really poorly for years on end, for lots of people the damage is done by their teen years.


Ignoramuses will still feel smug though


The cues which cause people to overeat are almost entirely subconscious be they the source of homeostatic or hedonic eating. When an obese person is dieting and below there set point of say 20/30/40% fat those cues are amplified; again knock yourself out on google scholar.

Simply applying a simple conservation of energy equation to a very complex human engine, is well, simple.

Some light reading. It isn't exactly short of references to well designed studies
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29243729-the-hungry-brain

It has a rather positive spin on it, in spite of the evidence, I guess Guyenet had to get in on the diet show to..

Old Rudge

Old Rudge wrote: »

Nope.

One side of the equation has an effect on the other; the effect will vary from person to person.

For an effortless lean person like me, I will gain nothing near a pound. My NEAT will automatically go up, when I take exercise I will be more energetic and feel like doing more/going harder. I'd probably gain less than half a pound and lose it very quickly after stopping excess feeding.



......

If you don't stop excess feeding and consistently eat 500kcals over your maintenance cals what would happen.

If we accept that your maintenance cals is variable as you do more etc etc so the excess is +500kcal /day onto maintenance cals.



I was speaking of a 500kcal/day calorie excess...

One side is calories out. The other is calories out +500

I'm amazed you couldn't grasp that 500kcals over maintenance doesn't become 250kcals if your maintenance cals increase by 250kcals....you then have a new maintenance.

You'll get tired of exercising before you can't eat a 500kcal/day excess too.... scholar

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Augeo wrote: »

I'm going for 6 rice cakes and 250g of vanilla soft cheese

Rice cakes? They are nutritionally complete crap! Man, I’m glad I can keep weight down without having to resort to high GI styrofoam.