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Harsh sentence

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    #92
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    seamus wrote: »
    It's the Independent.

    A few weeks back there was a case where a man offered to pay his ex-wife for sex, and when she refused, dragged her upstairs, punched her in the face and forcibly removed her trousers, but she fought him off before he could rape her.

    The Independent reported this case as "man hit his wife over the head in a row over sex". Like some cartoonish Flintstones escapade.

    So given the Independent's tendency to downplay sexual violence, I'm going to look at the more obvious point here:

    - This was tried in a circuit court, with a jury, rather than a district court.

    If the case was as simple as, "Ah Jaysus we were locked and I got in the wrong bed", the DPP wouldn't have brought it to the circuit court, and the man's solicitor would have advised him to plead guilty and accept a small charge.

    There is undoubtedly a lot more to this case than the Indo is reporting.
    That was my thinking. Plus you would imagine one would apologize straight away when realizing they climbed into wrong bed. Maybe he did but it doesn't seem so from victims reaction.


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    #93
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    seamus wrote:
    Did you just compare a kiss on the back of the head while you're awake, with touching someone's genitals while they sleep?
    What if she says it's ok to do it when you come to bed?


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    #94
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Sorry but, what?

    Is this really where we are as a society?

    My wife kissed me on the back of the head this morning when she came up behind me, sexual assault in your eyes no doubt.

    #metoo

    Yeah cos that’s exactly the same thing as barging in the room blotto and forcing yourself on a sleeping person and fondling their genitals :rolleyes:


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    #95
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Who said he didn't feel remorse?

    Failure to acknowledge wrongdoing would indicate a lack of remorse. In itself it's a bit worrying that he doesn't believe there was wrongdoing.


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    #96
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    seamus wrote: »
    If the case was as simple as, "Ah Jaysus we were locked and I got in the wrong bed", the DPP wouldn't have brought it to the circuit court, and the man's solicitor would have advised him to plead guilty and accept a small charge.

    What small charge could the DPP reduce it to?

    Also we have no idea what his solicitor advised him to do.

    I imagine the victim has a say in it too.

    In the case of the lowlife who beat and dragged his wife upstairs and attempted to rape her, he didn't plead guilty to the attempted rape, he plead guilty to assault. The DPP dropped that aspect of it.

    But again, not enough detail.

    This happened in the summer of 2015, what was the delay I wonder.


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    #97
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,055 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    seamus wrote: »
    Did you just compare a kiss on the back of the head while you're awake, with touching someone's genitals while they sleep?

    Or did you miss that bit?

    Yes, touching your partner's genitals while they're asleep, is sexual assault.

    Please tell me I didn't need to point that out.

    I'm not equating touching genitals with a kiss on the head (as I'm *sure* you are aware) I'm equating the lack of consent in both cases.

    So, my wife sexually assaulted me this morning in your eyes?


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    #98
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    eagle eye wrote: »
    He pleaded not guilty and was found guilty. That is what she is referring to. He admitted what happened but felt it was not sexual assault because there was no intent to sexually assault on his part. He though it was his own bed.

    Yes we have a victim, a person hurt by a very unfortunate event.
    This man has no history of law breaking let alone a sexual assault history.
    I think it's wrong that he got jailed. As I've said already I'm normally on the other side of the fence wanting bigger sentences for sexual offenders.

    Doesn't really make sense for the judge to say , he didn't feel remorse then ?

    Anyway if you make that comment and touch a women there it is your duty to make sure you know who your touching ,Drunk or not he sexually assaulted her end of story ,

    Lots of things seem to be missing from the story, who's house was it ?
    Surely the women who knew him (like a brother) would have know if it was an accident ?
    Was the comment he made to her before or after he touched her ,
    Had she made he self know to him before or after the touch and comment

    Lots of stuff missing from the report but as someone said ,
    I don't think a simple accident with friends would have went that far ,


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    #99
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    batgoat wrote:
    Failure to acknowledge wrongdoing would indicate a lack of remorse. In itself it's a bit worrying that he doesn't believe there was wrongdoing.
    It's a technical thing. He admitted doing it but believes there was no intent to sexually assault. The charge brought before the court was one which includes intent.


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    #100
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm not equating touching genitals with a kiss on the head (as I'm *sure* you are aware) I'm equating the lack of consent in both cases.

    So, my wife sexually assaulted me this morning in your eyes?

    Consent can be implied. If I walk up to a random woman and kiss her, it's a type of assault. If you kiss your wife then it's not because it's something you do every day. You can assume that she will consent because she always has and you have no reason to think she wouldn't.

    However if your wife told you she doesn't want you to kiss her then you would have to assume that there's no consent.

    The simple fact that this has to be explained in this day in age is amazing.


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    #101
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,055 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Grayson wrote: »
    Consent can be implied. If I walk up to a random woman and kiss her, it's a type of assault. If you kiss your wife then it's not because it's something you do every day. You can assume that she will consent because she always has and you have no reason to think she wouldn't.

    However if your wife told you she doesn't want you to kiss her then you would have to assume that there's no consent.

    The simple fact that this has to be explained in this day in age is amazing.

    Thats plain and obvious to most, but clearly not all.
    seamus wrote: »
    Yes, touching your partner's genitals while they're asleep, is sexual assault.

    Please tell me I didn't need to point that out.


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    #102
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Sorry but, what?

    Is this really where we are as a society?

    My wife kissed me on the back of the head this morning when she came up behind me, sexual assault in your eyes no doubt.

    #metoo

    WOW !!! you cant be serious , a wife kissing you on the head is not in the same realm as a drunk entering your room while you sleep touching you and making the comment "let me touch your Clit " is not even close


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    #103
    bcklschaps
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭bcklschaps


    Sentence seems very harsh.

    We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? :o they had it good for long enough.
    BBFAN wrote: »
    A year is a harsh sentence?

    Since ****ing when?

    For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again. In fact the way things have gone, he's unlikely to be able to even live in this country again. All for what seems to have been a drunken fumble.


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    #104
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Thats plain and obvious to most, but clearly not all.

    There are different levels of sexual assault. Not everything is on par with rape but yeah touching you partners genitals in sexual way while they are asleep is assault.

    I know you will find another silly example to dismiss any type of assault. If you are the type of a person who excuses every assault with but my wife kisses the back of my head you'll probably never get why touching someone's genitals when they are asleep is wrong.


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    #105
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,505 ✭✭✭blue note


    I'm full of sympathy for the guy here. From about 20 years old to 28 I was often doing things in my sleep. If i was drinking they were more likely, but I didn't need to be drinking for an incident. I don't think people understand that you can do things while asleep and have no control of them.

    Most commonly, I'd take off my underpants and go to sleep on the couch with my duvet. Relatively harmless, but if someone caught me walking down the corridor naked it could have been trouble for me.

    The two that could really have gotten me in trouble were the time I stayed with a former college housemate and the sleepwalking in a hostel in lahinch. For the former, I got up during the night and got into her bed and slept there. I was in my underpants and her a thong. I didn't do anything, but it was a surprise for her to wake up to me there. I probably went to the bathroom and thought she was my girlfriend and got into bed with her.

    In lahinch, I got up in the middle of the night and walked out of my room, outside (in November during a storm) and still didn't wake up. I woke during the night when the two guys whose room I wandered into wondered who the fcuk was in a bed in their room. They woke me and after I came to I legged it out of the room and wandered the halls in my boxers until i found my room. If I had wandered into a room with two girls in it, I could conceivably have been in real trouble and been a discussion on boards here.

    I also occasionally would try to have sex with my girlfriend when asleep. I don't think it was ever any more than her waking to me humping her leg and saying something crude (which would be completely out of character for me). I don't know how it never resulted in sex.

    I once gave her a box in the nose while asleep too. I woke up to her hitting me and swearing at me and me not having a clue why.

    I also tried to get into bed with my parents a few years ago. My brother in law tried to get into bed with my sisters friend. Her father in law regularly tries to get into bed with her and her husband,

    It's possible that this guys actions were intentional. But I have no idea how they could know that beyond reasonable doubt. I really hope there was more evidence, but in my experience lots of people don't believe sleepwalking is real. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in jail for something he really had no control over.


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    #106
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    Sentence seems very harsh.

    We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? :o they had it good for long enough.



    For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again.

    Of course he will work again ,
    I know plenty of people who have been in prison who are working right now
    Obviously not as a Bank CEO or mayor of Dublin but of course he can work again


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    #107
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    Sentence seems very harsh.

    We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? :o they had it good for long enough.



    For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again. In fact the way things have gone, he's unlikely to be able to even live in this country again. All for what seems to have been a drunken fumble.

    This is complete hysterical overreaction. If anything the rape conviction stats paint very different story.


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    #108
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    blue note wrote: »
    I'm full of sympathy for the guy here. From about 20 years old to 28 I was often doing things in my sleep. If i was drinking they were more likely, but I didn't need to be drinking for an incident. I don't think people understand that you can do things while asleep and have no control of them.

    Most commonly, I'd take off my underpants and go to sleep on the couch with my duvet. Relatively harmless, but if someone caught me walking down the corridor naked it could have been trouble for me.

    The two that could really have gotten me in trouble were the time I stayed with a former college housemate and the sleepwalking in a hostel in lahinch. For the former, I got up during the night and got into her bed and slept there. I was in my underpants and her a thong. I didn't do anything, but it was a surprise for her to wake up to me there. I probably went to the bathroom and thought she was my girlfriend and got into bed with her.

    In lahinch, I got up in the middle of the night and walked out of my room, outside (in November during a storm) and still didn't wake up. I woke during the night when the two guys whose room I wandered into wondered who the fcuk was in a bed in their room. They woke me and after I came to I legged it out of the room and wandered the halls in my boxers until i found my room. If I had wandered into a room with two girls in it, I could conceivably have been in real trouble and been a discussion on boards here.

    I also occasionally would try to have sex with my girlfriend when asleep. I don't think it was ever any more than her waking to me humping her leg and saying something crude (which would be completely out of character for me). I don't know how it never resulted in sex.

    I once gave her a box in the nose while asleep too. I woke up to her hitting me and swearing at me and me not having a clue why.

    I also tried to get into bed with my parents a few years ago. My brother in law tried to get into bed with my sisters friend. Her father in law regularly tries to get into bed with her and her husband,

    It's possible that this guys actions were intentional. But I have no idea how they could know that beyond reasonable doubt. I really hope there was more evidence, but in my experience lots of people don't believe sleepwalking is real. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in jail for something he really had no control over.

    I think you’re confused. He wasn’t asleep, he was pissed drunk. She was asleep and he forced himself on her.


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    #109
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    "Show me your clit" were the words he used.

    Which are strange words to use, sounds like words used commonly between two people that are sexually comfortable with each other, not something you would say to someone you've never been with before.


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    #110
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Of course he will work again ,

    I doubt he will work as a taxi driver again.


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    #111
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Hoboo wrote: »
    "Show me your clit" were the words he used.

    Which are strange words to use, sounds like words used commonly between two people that are sexually comfortable with each other, not something you would say to someone you've never been with before.

    You like the rest of us have absolutely no idea what he would say to his partner or what he would say to someone else in bed, ,

    Why would you even think you can assume his intention form the statement " show me your clit"


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    #112
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,505 ✭✭✭blue note


    Grayson wrote: »
    . You can assume that she will consent because she always has and you have no reason to think she wouldn't.

    .

    Wait, you're saying that there are times where consent can be assumed? You're obviously right like in the example you gave, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say that.


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    #113
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    yourdeadwright wrote:
    Why would you even think you can assume his intention form the statement " show me your clit"
    If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.


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    #114
    inforfun
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 20,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    Who was living in that house and in whose bedroom did it happen?

    If the guy is living there with his fiance and that friend had crawled into "his" bedroom i can kind of see how this went completely wrong when completely pissed.

    Maybe drink a bit less next time.


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    #115
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Boggles wrote: »
    I doubt he will work as a taxi driver again.

    I could be wrong but currently the only offences that can stop becoming a taxi driver are e drug-trafficking, money laundering and firearms offences, ,

    Seems crazy that rape is not one of them but I think above are the current ones I could be wrong ,


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    #116
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Meanwhile this guy walks naked into the company secretarys hotel room (funny he picked that room), gets no jail but does get 10 million euro. Difference being a high powered legal team.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenmare-resources-appeals-10m-defamation-award-to-deputy-chairman-after-naked-sleep-walk-891672.html

    Taxi driver was obviously drunk and had no memory of what he did, obviously people saying he deserved jail have never got so similarly drunk.


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    #117
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.


    The thing that made him guilty was touching her vagina not the statement,

    I'm simply saying we have no idea if he would only say that to his wife, or to someone else ,


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    #118
    bcklschaps
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭bcklschaps


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Of course he will work again ,
    I know plenty of people who have been in prison who are working right now
    Obviously not as a Bank CEO or mayor of Dublin but of course he can work again

    If you are asked in an interview or application form about any previous Criminal convictions ...and you say yes. Do you honestly think you will be getting the job ? ;)

    If you lie and they find out about it ... Sacked !!!

    The only person that will concievably give you a job knowing your history is a family relation or a close friend and even they won't want you if its a sexual type offence.

    A life of crime or social welfare is all thats there for you if you have a criminal conviction. That or the Aeroplane.


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    #119
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.

    This is a question about intent, he admitted the action but thought that it was a different person.

    So, in regards to the intention, does the person that the act is committed on matter in terms of the intent?


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    #120
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    I could be wrong but currently the only offences that can stop becoming a taxi driver are e drug-trafficking, money laundering and firearms offences, ,

    Seems crazy that rape is not one of them but I think above are the current ones I could be wrong ,



    Everything and anything can preclude you from becoming a taxi driver, it's down to the discretion of the Super.


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    #121
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    Meanwhile this guy walks naked into the company secretarys hotel room (funny he picked that room), gets no jail but does get 10 million euro. Difference being a high powered legal team.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenmare-resources-appeals-10m-defamation-award-to-deputy-chairman-after-naked-sleep-walk-891672.html

    Taxi driver was obviously drunk and had no memory of what he did, obviously people saying he deserved jail have never got so similarly drunk.

    Wow how are your missing the main point here,

    The taxi driver sexually assaulted her the other chap didn't touch anyone ,


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