Physical Media Not Dead Says New HMV Owner.

Technocentral

Very surprising buying 100 physical media stores and seems adamant: "We know the physical media business is here to stay" Anyone agree.

"By catering to music and entertainment lovers, we are incredibly excited about the opportunity to engage customers with a diverse range of physical format content and replicate our success in Canada.
"We know the physical media business is here to stay and we greatly appreciate all the support from the suppliers, landlords, employees and, most importantly, our customers," he added.

Frank O. Pinion

He'd be wrong.

mloc123

How many times has HMV been sold now? It seems to open and close every 3-4 months in Liffey Valley at least

Gravelly

Physical media isn't dead, however it is now a minority requirement, therefore it is difficult to see how a high street chain store could survive catering to a very small sector of the population. Physical media sales are catered for by sections in the likes of Tesco, CEX etc. - can't see an entire store, not to mention a chain of them having a future.

Technocentral

Gravelly wrote: »

Physical media isn't dead, however it is now a minority requirement, therefore it is difficult to see how a high street chain store could survive catering to a very small sector of the population. Physical media sales are catered for by sections in the likes of Tesco, CEX etc. - can't see an entire store, not to mention a chain of them having a future.

I agree, but why would a successful businessman buy 100 stores knowing all that, it's interesting.

Gravelly

Technocentral wrote: »

I agree, but why would a succesful bussiness man buy 100 stores knowing ali that, its interesting.

It is - can't figure it myself, I'd assumed they had some other plan for them, but going by his announcement, it seems not.

johnny_ultimate

I don't think physical media is dead, but I think the HMV model is more or less dead.

I still buy Blu-Rays frequently - if anything, the medium has only become more vital as companies like Arrow, Criterion, Masters of Cinema etc... continue to dig deep into cinema history and release loving, generous restorations of all kinds of classics. From obscure B-Movies or neglected arthouse oddities to insanely lavish collections dedicated to the world's best filmmakers, none of the streaming platforms come close to offering the variety and quality you can find in physical media releases. Long may it continue, as far as I'm concerned - it's genuinely helped me towards a far broader understanding of film history than I'd otherwise have managed.

Equally, I'm aware the above is a niche market - and the companies that survive (and in some cases thrive) have evolved to focus on a small but hopefully sustainable group of collectors and cinephiles. I'm not sure the HMV model fits with that - I'd imagine the vast amount of purchasing is done online. While I'd hate to see physical media stores disappearing - there's still something satisfying about browsing Tower Records, the IFI bookshop, or Fopp and the BFI store in the UK - I buy most things online and directly from the distributors involved when I can. The situation is more dire from the more ‘high street’ chains than the small, independent vinyl stores and the like (some of which will likely continue to have modest success).

So no, physical media isn't dead - but HMV will almost certainly remain on life support until the plug is eventually pulled.

pixelburp

He's either naive or it's some kind of tax / financial voodoo I'd estimate.

It's a fair comment, there's still a place for physical media - I recently bought 3 blu-rays. I like owning my favourite films, and at the end of the day, the key & obvious flaw in Cloud Services is that once said service disappears, so will your access to all that content.

Obviously physical discs can be rendered obsolete through the hardware (neither my or my wife's laptop have a disc drive), but the sense of ownership, ones own copy of the thing, always trumps subscribed access IMO.

Technocentral

Gravelly wrote: »

Technocentral wrote: »

I agree, but why would a succesful bussiness man buy 100 stores knowing ali that, its interesting.

It is - can't figure it myself, I'd assumed they had some other plan for them, but going by his announcement, it seems not.

They said they would be concentrating on vinyl, I only buy vinyl myself but its a tiny niche product and not the basis for a successful multi chain business model, bizzare.

BuffaloTengo

Good to see him giving it a go.
For me it boils down to quality. I subscribe to Netflix HD and while it's decent quality it's nowhere near the quality of a blu ray.
As was mentioned above there are a lot of labels releasing older films on blu ray which is great, and for me at least watching a film of a big tv screen trumps watching on a phone any day.......I realise I may be in the minority in that regard these days!

Fysh

Technocentral wrote: »

They said they would be concentrating on vinyl, I only buy vinyl myself but its a tiny niche product and not the basis for a successful multi chain business model, bizzare.

The limited edition market for vinyl has been absolutely bananas in recent years, as in tiny runs in different colours on top of the standard editions. You've only to look at the likes of the Rough Trade stores and their listings to see that there's evidently a market. Vinyl sales have been growing substantially and IIRC have overtaken CDs in the last year (more because CD sales have fallen off a cliff, but even so...)

Whether it's big enough to sustain 100 shops where the last 2-3 owners haven't managed it remains to be seen.

I value physical media for films more so than for music on the basis that DRM has never gone away for films, whereas for music I can easily buy DRM free digital copies. So if I want a copy of a film I can retain long term access to, it needs to be a Blu-ray disc that I manually rip (the sad joke that are the various iterations of Ultraviolet etc can go and do one, frankly). On top of which, the comparison to the digital market for games is relevant - there are already a number of games that either can't be bought at all any more or can't be had in their original form due to stupid licensing nonsense (e.g. the Scott Pilgrim Xbox Live/PSN game is not available at all, while the digital copy of GTA V on Steam etc no longer has the same music because the rights expired). And that's before you get to things like being able to get source media for transformative works like fanedits (many of which are junk but a few of which are fantastic in their own right).

Technocentral

From the Guardian:

"Putman, 34, has a decent track record. His Canadian music chain Sunrise Records has grown from just five stores when he bought it in 2014 to 84 stores today. The bulk of that expansion came in 2017 when he bought 70 of HMV’s stores in Canada after the chain went bust there. Putman says the gamble has paid off, with those stores now making a profit.

The music mogul has has compared record shopping to a “treasure hunt”, leading customers to something unexpected, and claims the key to making a music shop work is offering customers depth of choice.

He told Spill Magazine that while most shops might offer Fleetwood Mac fans a greatest hits collection or the 1977 classic album Rumours, Sunrise stocks a greater choice. “Rather than having what I call the ‘basics’, we would offer Tusk and Tango in the Night. It takes it deeper and it gives the customer that assortment in the store.”

Interesting to see if the UK marketplace is like Canada and if he can replicate his success there, whatever about HMV I'd hate to see Tower go, the last big physical media stores (esp Dawson Street) left in Ireland

Frank O. Pinion

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

He'd be wrong.

Not for film, unless streaming sites are going to bump their data transmission to insane heights. 4K BluRays are far superior to any streaming service and I am certainly do not have enough storage media to cover disks.

Charging an insane premium for 4K discs will kill physical media far quicker than technological reasons.

Frank O. Pinion

It doesn't matter what's superior, what are millennials and the next generation doing? Going to the cinema, watching Netflix, or the more savvy, downloading torrents. Not spending their little disposable income on expensive discs.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

Not for film, unless streaming sites are going to bump their data transmission to insane heights. 4K BluRays are far superior to any streaming service and I am certainly do not have enough storage media to cover disks.

Charging an insane premium for 4K discs will kill physical media far quicker than technological reasons.

I think it's only a matter of time as broadband and mobile networks get faster and broader.

I'd say on a few years to come streaming quality will surpass blu ray 4k.

For most people 4k on offer now on Netflix will suffice and discs are becoming a niche market for purists and collectors.

I myself don't buy discs as prefer to have a digital library that is easier to access and does not take up much physical space.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

I think it's only a matter of time as broadband and mobile networks get faster and broader.

I'd say on a few years to come streaming quality will surpass blu ray 4k.

For most people 4k on offer now on Netflix will suffice and discs are becoming a niche market for purists and collectors.

I myself don't buy discs as prefer to have a digital library that is easier to access and does not take up much physical space.

I have spent far too much on a good screen and sound system to bother with digital, for tentpole shows.
Also very hard to find good quality older films and I am no purist.
Just waste of money having good equipment and sending a substandard content through it

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

I have spent far too much on a good screen and sound system to bother with digital, for tentpole shows.
Also very hard to find good quality older films and I am no purist.
Just waste of money having good equipment and sending a substandard content through it

As I said you're in a minority and and as I also said in the near future streaming and downloading will give access to the quality you want.

super_furry

I think they're banking on Blu-Ray and physical movie media having the same soft of resurgence they vinyl LPs have had. Not sure that's going to happen.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

As I said you're in a minority and and as I also said in the near future streaming and downloading will give access to the quality you want.

The future is pointless, it is not now and storage is not exactly cheap.
Also never mind my country address, my city based parents are getting a whopping 25Mb of speed for their connection. Not even enough for Netflix semi 4K.

As for streaming, sick of losing access to films already and that is only getting worse as the studios launch more and more services.
Flixter and UltraViolet have been nothing but a pain in the arse and now you have to jump through hoops to get access to films you already own (have a licence to watch really), as their "services" are no more.



All Vs opening the tray of the player and inserting which ever disc I want to put in.



What is killing 4K is the cost of the disc being a rip off. There are plenty of people who, rightfully, refuse to pay €40 for a new release who would otherwise have a disc based system still.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

The future is pointless, it is not now and storage is not exactly cheap.
Also never mind my country address, my city based parents are getting a whopping 25Mb of speed for their connection. Not even enough for Netflix semi 4K.

As for streaming, sick of losing access to films already and that is only getting worse as the studios launch more and more services.
Flixter and UltraViolet have been nothing but a pain in the arse and now you have to jump through hoops to get access to films you already own (have a licence to watch really), as their "services" are no more.



All Vs opening the tray of the player and inserting which ever disc I want to put in.


What is killing 4K is the cost of the disc being a rip off. There are plenty of people who, rightfully, refuse to pay €40 for a new release who would otherwise have a disc based system still.

Of course the future is not pointless. It's what we're discussing as we're saying that HMV is facing a bleak future.

I have no idea about the services you're talking about so can't comment but I'm sure better ones will come.

As for broadband, majority of people have access to good broadband now despite what many say. Currently have 360mb with Virgin and I'd guess in 5 years time that 10gb will be normal and that will most llikey kill off discs altogether.

That's the point I'm making not your own personal current situation.

Also, totally agree about 4k prices they are ridiculous but a sign of the limited market. If they were selling more then they'd be cheaper.

Snake Plisken

Physical media isn't dead I am currently gearing up for a move into 4K that means re-buying some of my favourite movies like The Dark Knight trilogy Arrival Logan etc on 4K Blu-ray. Unfortunately the best deals for physical media are now online so I don't think bricks and mortar shops will survive. I do use streaming services like Netflix and Spotify and will probably buy 4K movies on Apple TV that I have a little interest in and when they are on sale.

Ruraldweller56

pixelburp wrote: »

He's either naive or it's some kind of tax / financial voodoo I'd estimate.

It's a fair comment, there's still a place for physical media - I recently bought 3 blu-rays. I like owning my favourite films, and at the end of the day, the key & obvious flaw in Cloud Services is that once said service disappears, so will your access to all that content.

Obviously physical discs can be rendered obsolete through the hardware (neither my or my wife's laptop have a disc drive), but the sense of ownership, ones own copy of the thing, always trumps subscribed access IMO.

Yes I'd agree largely. I like owning my own blu-rays dvds cds etc. I normally buy my stuff from zavvi or some other kind of online retailer though.

Im not sure about the need for a store as such.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Of course the future is not pointless. It's what we're discussing as we're saying that HMV is facing a bleak future.

Holographic entertainment is in the "future* should we just wait until then?

HMV may (will) not work but online storrs are easy to use. Wait 5 years or use a disc?? Hmmmm...

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

Holographic entertainment is in the "future* should we just wait until then?

HMV may (will) not work but online storrs are easy to use. Wait 5 years or use a disc?? Hmmmm...

Bloody hell, I never said that you should stop doing what you're doing.

Saying in the future that it internet services will most likely wipe out physical media.

I'm not talking about now at all.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Bloody hell, I never said that you should stop doing what you're doing.

Saying in the future that it internet services will most likely wipe out physical media.

I'm not talking about now at all.

But I am talking about now. Physical media is not dead and if they were not being greedy would be flying for another 3-5 years. And then, yes, speeds and capacity may very well have caught up enough to warrant the demise of physical media.

Relikk

There's no way I'm ever going to rely on a "digital library" for anything as long as a physical format exists for whatever it is I want to buy.

Wedwood

Got Apple TV 4K recently, a big plus is if you've already purchased a movie on iTunes, you get a free upgrade to 4K HDR. Plus you can get regular offers e.g. recently got Independence Day 4K HDR for €2.99. Video quality is close enough to disc, albeit disc has higher bit rate. That said Apple do really good compression so you have to really scrutinise to spot the difference in quality.

Netflix, €12 per month, loads of movies/shows in HD/4K/HDR, can't argue with that. Similar video/sound quality as iTunes.

That said, I've kept all my DVDs and BluRays, they all still work perfectly and work with each new generation of disc player/computer/console.

murpho999

Relikk wrote: »

There's no way I'm ever going to rely on a "digital library" for anything as long as a physical format exists for whatever it is I want to buy.

Why?
What if the future digital was better quality then any physical media?

Physical media can get lost or damaged. Digital can always be associated to your account and downloaded again.

jh79

murpho999 wrote: »

Why?
What if the future digital was better quality then any physical media?

Physical media can get lost or damaged. Digital can always be associated to your account and downloaded again.

On itunes etc you own the product only for as long as they have the licencing agreement. If that goes then the movie goes too.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/7247003/itunes-movies-apple-own-buy-rent/

murpho999

jh79 wrote: »

On itunes etc you own the product only for as long as they have the licencing agreement. If that goes then the movie goes too.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/7247003/itunes-movies-apple-own-buy-rent/

Oh yes The Sun, a fine quality journal.

Sorry I just don't read that.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Oh yes The Sun, a fine quality journal.

Sorry I just don't read that.

He is right though. You do not own the media, only the access rights to it on that platform.

And they will not allow you to download disc quality copies.

Bigmac1euro

Vinyl is the only way HMV might survive.
Vinyl sales are doing extremely well at the moment so I’d say that’s this guys plan.
Should be interesting to see. Vinyl is currently expensive and I know plenty of people buying old and new vinyl.

Gravelly

steo_magra wrote: »

Vinyl is the only way HMV might survive.
Vinyl sales are doing extremely well at the moment so I’d say that’s this guys plan.
Should be interesting to see. Vinyl is currently expensive and I know plenty of people buying old and new vinyl.

The thing is though, it is very likely that the current trend for vinyl is just that - a trend. Although there will likely always be a market for it, I’d imagine that market will be minuscule once the current fashion for vinyl dies down - certainly there won’t be a large enough market to sustain a chain of high street stores.

9935452

murpho999 wrote: »

As for broadband, majority of people have access to good broadband now despite what many say. Currently have 360mb with Virgin and I'd guess in 5 years time that 10gb will be normal and that will most llikey kill off discs altogether.

.

What would you consider a good internet connection. ?
Unless you live in a city or big town you will struggle .
Im 2 miles outside a big town. My phone line wont support broadband.
The parents are 3 miles on the other side of the town and have a 3mb connection.
A friend a few miles out of a city had to get wireless bb cause there was nothing else. Paying 50 euro a month for 3mb at best.
Another friend living inside a town is getting 9mb.
I can go on and on.

mikhail

murpho999 wrote: »

Why?
What if the future digital was better quality then any physical media?

Physical media can get lost or damaged. Digital can always be associated to your account and downloaded again.

Until the vendor loses the rights to it and pulls it from your account.

jh79

murpho999 wrote: »

Oh yes The Sun, a fine quality journal.

Sorry I just don't read that.

The gist of it is that if itunes and the distributor do not renew their licensing agreement the movie will be deleted from your account.

murpho999

9935452 wrote: »

What would you consider a good internet connection. ?
Unless you live in a city or big town you will struggle .
Im 2 miles outside a big town. My phone line wont support broadband.
The parents are 3 miles on the other side of the town and have a 3mb connection.
A friend a few miles out of a city had to get wireless bb cause there was nothing else. Paying 50 euro a month for 3mb at best.
Another friend living inside a town is getting 9mb.
I can go on and on.

You're not giving any locations.

Fact is the large urban centres where most people live have good broadband.

I would consider receiving 100mb to be good.

Majority of people around cities, which is where the majority of people in live, have access to this.

jh79

murpho999 wrote: »

Oh yes The Sun, a fine quality journal.

Sorry I just don't read that.

Liverpool fan?

Tipsy McSwagger

jh79 wrote: »

Liverpool fan?

Why does that matter? It’s a disgusting rag.

jh79

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Why does that matter? It’s a disgusting rag.

Just curious, bit over the top for an article on itunes.

Technocentral

Id go to a physical media store that had: New and used vinyl (not just top 10, back catalogues and wide range of genres) at good prices, good selection of blu rays not just mainstream, good coffee, good music and film books selections. They will never be mainstream again but a good off beat shop like this would get a large 35+ discerning clientele.

jh79

Technocentral wrote: »

Id go to a physical media store that had: New and used vinyl (not just top 10) at good prices, good selection of blu rays not just mainstream, good coffee, good music and film books selections. They will never be mainstream again but a good off beat shop like this would get a 35+ discerning clientele.

A cheaper version of Tower Records.

Gravelly

Technocentral wrote: »

Id go to a physical media store that had: New and used vinyl (not just top 10) at good prices, good selection of blu rays not just mainstream, good coffee, good music and film books selections. They will never be mainstream again but a good off beat shop like this would get a 35+ discerning clientele.

A shop like that would probably do decent enough business in any large town or city, but would be extremely unlikely to make enough to justify the prime retail spots (with the associated rent & rates) that HMV stores occupy.
All the vinyl stores I'm aware of are sidestreet operations.

Technocentral

jh79 wrote: »

Technocentral wrote: »

Id go to a physical media store that had: New and used vinyl (not just top 10) at good prices, good selection of blu rays not just mainstream, good coffee, good music and film books selections. They will never be mainstream again but a good off beat shop like this would get a 35+ discerning clientele.

A cheaper version of Tower Records.

Yeah they are still good but the Dawson St one was great when they had that cafe upstairs, I used to go for lunch then browse the vinyl/blu ray sections, was always pretty full, wonder why they closed.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

You're not giving any locations.

Fact is the large urban centres where most people live have good broadband.

I would consider receiving 100mb to be good.

Majority of people around cities, which is where the majority of people in live, have access to this.

Cork city, for my parents. INSIDE the city boundary in a very well established residential area

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I don't think physical media is dead, but I think the HMV model is more or less dead.

I still buy Blu-Rays frequently - if anything, the medium has only become more vital as companies like Arrow, Criterion, Masters of Cinema etc... continue to dig deep into cinema history and release loving, generous restorations of all kinds of classics. From obscure B-Movies or neglected arthouse oddities to insanely lavish collections dedicated to the world's best filmmakers, none of the streaming platforms come close to offering the variety and quality you can find in physical media releases. Long may it continue, as far as I'm concerned - it's genuinely helped me towards a far broader understanding of film history than I'd otherwise have managed.

Equally, I'm aware the above is a niche market - and the companies that survive (and in some cases thrive) have evolved to focus on a small but hopefully sustainable group of collectors and cinephiles. I'm not sure the HMV model fits with that - I'd imagine the vast amount of purchasing is done online. While I'd hate to see physical media stores disappearing - there's still something satisfying about browsing Tower Records, the IFI bookshop, or Fopp and the BFI store in the UK - I buy most things online and directly from the distributors involved when I can. The situation is more dire from the more ‘high street’ chains than the small, independent vinyl stores and the like (some of which will likely continue to have modest success).

So no, physical media isn't dead - but HMV will almost certainly remain on life support until the plug is eventually pulled.

Agreed.

Physical media may not be dead, but how the consumer buys it is changing.

Like you, I like the act of browsing and deciding on a purchase in a real life shop. That kind of hunt is a lot more satisfying than clicking a button on a browser and going to an online checkout.

But, more and more, I find myself just getting a Blu online while I'm browsing.

murpho999

jh79 wrote: »

Liverpool fan?

Yes, that's a big reason but I woudn't go near it for anything.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

Cork city, for my parents. INSIDE the city boundary in a very well established residential area

Of course there are exceptions, I did say MOST people.

Fysh

An example of the downsides of digital media in the context of current business trends like non-perpetual licences for music. Another one. And another (previously owned by Tesco). And another one, this one an industry-wide effort.

So between the potential for "special edition"ised versions of films becoming the only ones available, and the potential for your library to vanish if the service shuts down (and the ubiquity of DRM requiring serverside authentication for playback), there's not really any service where you can say with certainty that if you pay for access, you'll get it indefinitely.

I am grateful that streaming has significantly broadened my access to films and music I might not otherwise find, but the business paradigms under which most streaming services operate mean that they are not great for creators, and good for audiences only in so much as you'll always have access to something - but if you want access to a specific thing, currently physical media is the most reliable way. At least there you've got a physical copy you can play and, where possible, rip to a digital file to work around hardware obsolescence.

Of course, the above is based on what I want from my film purchases. Others may want different things and find different terms and services suit them better, which is fair enough

BuffaloTengo

Having the ability to walk into a shop and purchase a blu ray film as opposed to having to subscribe to 5 or 6 streaming sites just to get the one film you want.
No question for me, I'll always support physical media - preferably bought in bricks and mortar shops.

pixelburp

Fysh wrote: »

An example of the downsides of digital media in the context of current business trends like non-perpetual licences for music. Another one. And another (previously owned by Tesco). And another one, this one an industry-wide effort.

So between the potential for "special edition"ised versions of films becoming the only ones available, and the potential for your library to vanish if the service shuts down (and the ubiquity of DRM requiring serverside authentication for playback), there's not really any service where you can say with certainty that if you pay for access, you'll get it indefinitely.

Books are another one: I did recently get a kindle admittedly, but I still buy physical books & reserve the kindle for traveling & picking up... well, the modern equivalent of penny dreadfuls. Nothing I'd have been mad keen to read anyway.

The idea that the oldest form of media out there - the printed word - is now also in the cloud and basically strangled by non-perpetually leasing to the end user feels borderline obscene. I doubt Gutenberg himself would be able to get that concept round his head. A book on a shelf is a classic, almost timeless concept and that physicality and sense of ownership of a piece of art or entertainment is impossible to replicate by a digital service (but like I said, do appreciate the benefits of the kindle)