Taxi drive complaint - NTA

gmisk

I stuck the hand out for a taxi driver at the weekend he pulls up, light on, great.
Where are you going to?
"bla bla"
Oh actually I have a fair already....and drove off (luckily I took a picture of his number).



I sent complaint into the NTA.


They sent me an email today to say if driver doesnt pay fixed payment notice...I will need to make myself available for a court case...is this the norm? Has anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

irlrobins

I've lodged similar complaints and got the same initial reply from NTA. None of them went to court, they usually get handled by NTA in short period, as drivers want to resolve as quickly as they can, usually by paying the fixed fine.

gmisk

irlrobins wrote: »

I've lodged similar complaints and got the same initial reply from NTA. None of them went to court, they usually get handled by NTA in short period, as drivers want to resolve as quickly as they can, usually by paying the fixed fine.

Thanks for the quick reply.
I kind of guessed that would be the case, kind of glad I was with someone so have a witness.
I just dont think they should be allowed to get away with rubbish like that.

ArthurG

gmisk wrote: »

I stuck the hand out for a taxi driver at the weekend he pulls up, light on, great.
Where are you going to?
"bla bla"
Oh actually I have a fair already....and drove off (luckily I took a picture of his number).



I sent complaint into the NTA.


They sent me an email today to say if driver doesnt pay fixed payment notice...I will need to make myself available for a court case...is this the norm? Has anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

I never tell them where i'm going until i'm in the car, hard for them to drive off when you're in the vehicle.

Effects

How much in the NTA fine?

davetherave

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/rights-and-responsibilities-of-an-spsv-driver/fixed-payment-offences/

Unreasonable refusal to carry a passenger for a journey of 30 km or less (taxi only) (€80)

Losty Dublin

I didn't think that they would issue a fixed fine solely upon the content of an e-mail, even with a photo attached. Certainly they usen't to at least. As regards a court case, well if it goes that far then you would presumably need to attend as a witness. That would be months away though.

irlrobins

Sometimes the investigator will ring complainant to get further details, and follow up with result, based on my experience.

Spook_ie

I assume you mean he said he had a fare but no one in the cab?

There is an outside possibility that he had just taken an app booking, has happened to me above once (admittedly when I'm on a rank) when I've accepted an app fair just as someones approached the cab, but fairly easy for a driver or customer to prove as long as people have the times etc. of the complaint

Losty Dublin

Spook_ie wrote: »

I assume you mean he said he had a fare but no one in the cab?

There is an outside possibility that he had just taken an app booking, has happened to me above once (admittedly when I'm on a rank) when I've accepted an app fair just as someones approached the cab, but fairly easy for a driver or customer to prove as long as people have the times etc. of the complaint

Fair point. Used to happen me as well when I was on the road.

gmisk

Spook_ie wrote: »

I assume you mean he said he had a fare but no one in the cab?

There is an outside possibility that he had just taken an app booking, has happened to me above once (admittedly when I'm on a rank) when I've accepted an app fair just as someones approached the cab, but fairly easy for a driver or customer to prove as long as people have the times etc. of the complaint

That would be fine...but he had his light on and pulled in when we put hands out...then he asks where we are going...and then suddenly he has a fair....it doesnt sound likely does it? Or fair in the least to me.



I will be carrying on with the complaint.

Spook_ie

gmisk wrote: »

That would be fine...but he had his light on and pulled in when we put hands out...then he asks where we are going...and then suddenly he has a fair....it doesnt sound likely does it? Or fair in the least to me.



I will be carrying on with the complaint.

Sounds like a dick, carry on with blessings of all decent taxi drivers

TunaSaladBB

The NTA could probably self-fund if they collected fines from taxi drivers every time one of these rules was broken:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/rights-and-responsibilities-of-an-spsv-driver/fixed-payment-offences/

These ones would be a gold mine:
Standing for hire other than at an appointed stand (taxi only) (€40)
Standing with a taxi on part of a public road adjoining or in proximity to an appointed stand when the stand is full (€40)

.G.

They'd clean up at Heuston station everyday for the second one.

Ray Bloody Purchase

superg wrote: »

They'd clean up at Heuston station everyday for the second one.

At the drop off 'only' zone??

Mr.Frame

TunaSaladBB wrote: »

The NTA could probably self-fund if they collected fines from taxi drivers every time one of these rules was broken:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/rights-and-responsibilities-of-an-spsv-driver/fixed-payment-offences/

These ones would be a gold mine:
Standing for hire other than at an appointed stand (taxi only) (€40)
Standing with a taxi on part of a public road adjoining or in proximity to an appointed stand when the stand is full (€40)

They do.

GM228

Mr.Frame wrote: »

They do.

+1, in 2017 for example they issued 1512 FPNs and initiated 150 direct non FPN prosecutions, there was 112 cases for non payment of FPNs.

Of the 262 cases they had a 95% conviction rate.

Marcusm

Spook_ie wrote: »

I assume you mean he said he had a fare but no one in the cab?

There is an outside possibility that he had just taken an app booking, has happened to me above once (admittedly when I'm on a rank) when I've accepted an app fair just as someones approached the cab, but fairly easy for a driver or customer to prove as long as people have the times etc. of the complaint

In which case why would you even engage with them to find out where they wanted to go? Even if on the way it would still interfere with the customer you had snaffled on the app.

usernamegoes

I had a taxi driver on the Uber app message me asking where I was going once I told him he quit the fare. I knew where it was going so I took a screenshot and sent it to NTA. Same thing as OP, willing to go to court etc. They emailed me to day the driver was interviewed under caution and it was decided to fine him €80.

I had one driver drive off on me after I told him where I was going, he had the door locked and I nearly went under the wheel he took off so fast. We need more taxis but NTA are acting the maggot by not giving out new licenses.

Sleeper12

gmisk wrote:

They sent me an email today to say if driver doesnt pay fixed payment notice...I will need to make myself available for a court case...is this the norm? Has anyone any experience of this kind of thing?

This is the norm. You made an allegation against the taxi driver and he denied it. They can't ta it any further without you attending the hearing. They will want to question you face to face and the same goes for the taxi driver.

It would be a strange world if anyone could make an allegation & the person who you made the allegations about gets punished without a fair hearing.

On Facebook & twitter people decide someone's guilt without proof but fortunately in the real world people have a right to defend themselves

Mr.Frame

usernamegoes wrote: »

I had a taxi driver on the Uber app message me asking where I was going once I told him he quit the fare. I knew where it was going so I took a screenshot and sent it to NTA. Same thing as OP, willing to go to court etc. They emailed me to day the driver was interviewed under caution and it was decided to fine him €80.

I had one driver drive off on me after I told him where I was going, he had the door locked and I nearly went under the wheel he took off so fast. We need more taxis but NTA are acting the maggot by not giving out new licenses.

I somehow think it is NOT a court issue!

At present Dublin has more taxis than New York, hvnt you seen the streets id the city on any given night, theres traffic jams with taxis
And the NTA ARE issuing licences, even though the market is flooded.

Sleeper12

usernamegoes wrote: »

I had a taxi driver on the Uber app message me asking where I was going once I told him he quit the fare. I knew where it was going so I took a screenshot and sent it to NTA. Same thing as OP, willing to go to court etc. They emailed me to day the driver was interviewed under caution and it was decided to fine him €80.

I had one driver drive off on me after I told him where I was going, he had the door locked and I nearly went under the wheel he took off so fast. We need more taxis but NTA are acting the maggot by not giving out new licenses.

I'm not so sure this is true. Police interview you under caution I don't think NTA do. Taxi can't refuse a fare on the street but I don't think the law applies to an app. I doubt NTA have much to say with Uber. You might need a taxi for the city center to Tallaght. Taxi might have a pickup in Coolock in 45 minutes. Taxi could be ringing to see if you are going close to coolock. MY Taxi would work like a taxi radio company. Drivers can refuse a fare if it's out of their way or interferes with their next scheduled pickup

vandriver

Uber requires you to put in your destination when you book a cab.

Sleeper12

vandriver wrote:

Uber requires you to put in your destination when you book a cab.

It sounded made up to me too

Losty Dublin

Marcusm wrote: »

In which case why would you even engage with them to find out where they wanted to go? Even if on the way it would still interfere with the customer you had snaffled on the app.

I can't speak for other drivers but when I was in the trade and on the way to a booked pickup and saw somebody trying to hail and asked me, I'd let them know I was on my way elsewhere but if they were en route then yeah I would. Different story if you were doubling back but if it was handy then hell yeah, why not.

Some canny base staff at cab firms would do similar with their drivers; if they knew you could pick up a fare en route to another fare then they'd get you to do both.

Sue me if you want for doing this

whiskeyman

I always thought they didn't have to accept the fare until you actually sat in the car?

Sleeper12

whiskeyman wrote:

I always thought they didn't have to accept the fare until you actually sat in the car?

When you flag down a taxi or at a rank they can't refuse you based on where you want to go assuming that it's in the area they hold a licence for. I don't believe this is the case with my taxi, Uber or a radio company

Losty Dublin

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When you flag down a taxi or at a rank they can't refuse you based on where you want to go assuming that it's in the area they hold a licence for. I don't believe this is the case with my taxi, Uber or a radio company

A fare may be refused if it's going to a end location that is over 30KM from the point of hailing. A taxi driver may pick up from a rank or street if s/he has a PSV licence to operate in that geographical area. The taxi itself is not region or area specific. What matters most is the area where the driver is passed out for.

Private bookings, such as phone or inter web hires, may be picked up by a driver who has been issued with a valid Irish PSV licence regardless of the area it was allocated for. This is the case regardless of the type of vehicle driven that the PSV driver uses; Taxi, Hackney or Limo.

There are other criteria under which a driver can lawfully refuse a hiring.

usernamegoes

Mr.Frame wrote: »

I somehow think it is NOT a court issue!

At present Dublin has more taxis than New York, hvnt you seen the streets id the city on any given night, theres traffic jams with taxis
And the NTA ARE issuing licences, even though the market is flooded.

Failure to pay the fixed penalty notice is an offence where else would it be prosecuted?

It's getting harder and harder to get a taxi. No new normal licenses have been issued since 2011; look at NTA stats.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm not so sure this is true. Police interview you under caution I don't think NTA do. Taxi can't refuse a fare on the street but I don't think the law applies to an app. I doubt NTA have much to say with Uber. You might need a taxi for the city center to Tallaght. Taxi might have a pickup in Coolock in 45 minutes. Taxi could be ringing to see if you are going close to coolock. MY Taxi would work like a taxi radio company. Drivers can refuse a fare if it's out of their way or interferes with their next scheduled pickup

Anyone being interviewed with the potential of a criminal prosecution has these rights and they must have them told to them. The NTA is the prosecution authority under the 2013 Act not the Garda. Authorized officers of the NTA therefore do the interviewing.

I wasn't 100 per cent sure when I made the complaint that it would apply to pre-booking which is what the app is but the NTA seem to have agreed with me which is good.

vandriver wrote: »

Uber requires you to put in your destination when you book a cab.

It's not shown to the driver until you get in.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It sounded made up to me too

Indeed.

usernamegoes

Sleeper12 wrote: »

When you flag down a taxi or at a rank they can't refuse you based on where you want to go assuming that it's in the area they hold a licence for. I don't believe this is the case with my taxi, Uber or a radio company

If they are plying or engaged for hire then it does see s23 of the 2013 Act.

usernamegoes

whiskeyman wrote: »

I always thought they didn't have to accept the fare until you actually sat in the car?

No plying for hire, engaged for hire, or standing at a rank then it applies.

Sleeper12

usernamegoes wrote:

Anyone being interviewed with the potential of a criminal prosecution has these rights and they must have them told to them. The NTA is the prosecution authority under the 2013 Act not the Garda. Authorized officers of the NTA therefore do the interviewing.

I understand that but refusing to accept a fare isn't a criminal offence. They wouldn't interview him under caution when there is no criminal offence. Even if they did interview him under caution it's not the type of information they can share. The under caution part shouldn't be shared with you. It has no bearing on your complaint.

I think a taxi driver, Losty Dublin, already pointed out that private bookings like radio companies & Web based aps are exempt from from the law refusing a fare. Vandriver pointed out that you put in your destination when you book an Uber cab so the driver already knows where you are going before he accepts the job.

I'm sorry but it all sounds made up to me

iamtony

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I can't speak for other drivers but when I was in the trade and on the way to a booked pickup and saw somebody trying to hail and asked me, I'd let them know I was on my way elsewhere but if they were en route then yeah I would. Different story if you were doubling back but if it was handy then hell yeah, why not.

Some canny base staff at cab firms would do similar with their drivers; if they knew you could pick up a fare en route to another fare then they'd get you to do both.

Sue me if you want for doing this

This is what I expect happened. Most drivers are on their way to a fare already these days and some would chance their arm pulling in, in the hope your going in the right direction. Personally as a driver I wouldn't do it unless I was creeping in traffic I'd explain the situation.
I wouldn't do it for fear of what the op has done, as an annoying as it can be for the Op whats the point in chasi g it up. More hassle for him especially if it goes to court. I'd just tell the nta to leave it if it was me personally.

punisher5112

When is something going to be done about the abuse of bus stops especially by taxis.

It's shocking the amount I can't get in safely to get the elderly on/off safe or wheelchair users.

It's actually getting worse.

usernamegoes

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I understand that but refusing to accept a fare isn't a criminal offence. They wouldn't interview him under caution when there is no criminal offence. Even if they did interview him under caution it's not the type of information they can share. The under caution part shouldn't be shared with you. It has no bearing on your complaint.

I think a taxi driver, Losty Dublin, already pointed out that private bookings like radio companies & Web based aps are exempt from from the law refusing a fare. Vandriver pointed out that you put in your destination when you book an Uber cab so the driver already knows where you are going before he accepts the job.

I'm sorry but it all sounds made up to me

Yes it is an criminal offence Read sub-s4 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/37/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

NTA agreed with me that the taxi was plying for trade or engaged for trade therefore s23(2) applied.

Believe it or not. Posted so that others will know what to do if the same thing happens to them.

For those interested here's the email I got back (redacted for privacy)

Dear Mr. usernamegoes,


I refer to the above complaint.


I am to advise that the driver in this case was interviewed under caution on the 09 January 2019. The detail of your complaint was outlined to the driver and he was afforded the opportunity to respond. Having considered the detail of your complaint together with the responses of the driver it was decided that the appropriate resolution in this case was to issue the driver with a Fixed Payment Notice in the sum of €80.00 for the unreasonable refusal of a fare.


The matter is now closed and the National Transport Authority will take no further action in this case except where the driver fails to make payment within the statutory period. However, your complaint will be retained on file should similar complaints arise against this driver in the future. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for drawing this matter to our attention.


Yours sincerely,


XXXXXXX,
Compliance Officer

iamtony

usernamegoes wrote: »

It's getting harder and harder to get a taxi. No new normal licenses have been issued since 2011; look at NTA stats.

Is a wheelchair accessible vehicle not a normal vehicle? They can carry just as many passengers as a saloon and extra luggage and on top of that the licence is significantly cheaper than the saloon licences used to cost.
The reason for the lack of people taking up taxi driving is the difficult test(which I agree should be hard, and no GPS can replace local knowledge, Google maps doesn't know everything) and the extortionate insurance premiums during the first 3 years.

iamtony

punisher5112 wrote: »

When is something going to be done about the abuse of bus stops especially by taxis.

It's shocking the amount I can't get in safely to get the elderly on/off safe or wheelchair users.

It's actually getting worse.

start your own thread buddy totally off topic.

KevinCavan

This kind of behaviour puts everybody off using taxis and off taxi drivers.

Sleeper12

usernamegoes wrote:

Believe it or not. Posted so that others will know what to do if the same thing happens to them.

I'm not a taxi driver nor do I use the aps. It still makes no sense to me but thanks for going to the trouble of posting. If I am wrong I'm sorry for doubting you.

usernamegoes

iamtony wrote: »

Is a wheelchair accessible vehicle not a normal vehicle? They can carry just as many passengers as a saloon and extra luggage and on top of that the licence is significantly cheaper than the saloon licences used to cost.
The reason for the lack of people taking up taxi driving is the difficult test(which I agree should be hard, and no GPS can replace local knowledge, Google maps doesn't know everything) and the extortionate insurance premiums during the first 3 years.

No, it's an unnecessary barrier to entry.

I for one couldn't care if my driver just follows the GPS, get rid of the rule for Uber-stlye services and people know what they're dealing with if the route isn't as "expert" as someone who passed an exam.

Insurance could be dealt with via group coverage by the Uber-style operator. Pass a law which permits same. I am sure a group policy would work out cheaper than one guy trying to negotiate it themselves

magentis

punisher5112 wrote: »

When is something going to be done about the abuse of bus stops especially by taxis.

It's shocking the amount I can't get in safely to get the elderly on/off safe or wheelchair users.

It's actually getting worse.

Spot on.

They feel like they can jam on and pick up passengers anywhere they want,often in moving traffic.Obstructing bus stops and sitting on clearways,taking stupid chances on the road.The insurance premiums they pay are well justified and should be higher.

iamtony

KevinCavan wrote: »

This kind of behaviour puts everybody off using taxis and off taxi drivers.

Yeah your right it is unfortunately, although I will say most don't do this kind of thing. Its very common In other countries.

Sleeper12

iamtony wrote:

Is a wheelchair accessible vehicle not a normal vehicle? They can carry just as many passengers as a saloon and extra luggage and on top of that the licence is significantly cheaper than the saloon licences used to cost. The reason for the lack of people taking up taxi driving is the difficult test(which I agree should be hard, and no GPS can replace local knowledge, Google maps doesn't know everything) and the extortionate insurance premiums during the first 3 years.

Taxi drivers don't consider them normal vehicles as they cost so much to buy in the first place. The plates /licences everyone wanted was the non wheelchair plates. Less outlay.

iamtony

usernamegoes wrote: »

No, it's an unnecessary barrier to entry.

I for one couldn't care if my driver just follows the GPS, get rid of the rule for Uber-stlye services and people know what they're dealing with if the route isn't as "expert" as someone who passed an exam.

Insurance could be dealt with via group coverage by the Uber-style operator. Pass a law which permits same. I am sure a group policy would work out cheaper than one guy trying to negotiate it themselves

yeah in theory you wouldn't mind but I Google maps will always use the fastest route which can be much much longer and more expensive. As an example going from the airport to stillorgan it will send you around the m50 which would cost about 60 quid while the direct route through the city is about 35. Many many examples of this. And also it doesn't allow for bus lanes which will be quicker etc.

Also uber wouldn't be any cheaper in the city for most journeys were not expensive as taxis go worldwide where uber can come in and massively undercut. Here it might be 20% cheaper then ad on the extra time spent in traffic and the fare would be roughly the same for the most part. Be careful what you wish for.

iamtony

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Taxi drivers don't consider them normal vehicles as they cost so much to buy in the first place. The plates /licences everyone wanted was the non wheelchair plates. Less outlay.

so you think we should just say Fook the disabled person they don't need more taxis! Why not get rid of the disabled spot on buses cause you had to stand one day and there could of been 2 extra seats.
We have enough saloons we need more wheelchair vehicles simple as that.

Spook_ie

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Taxi drivers don't consider them normal vehicles as they cost so much to buy in the first place. The plates /licences everyone wanted was the non wheelchair plates. Less outlay.

But as of when they were the only licenses being issued they became the norm, saloon licenses, unless you've nominated a death transfer using form S15N and accepted after death by form S15A, are literally dying out.

If you want more taxis then they should consider schemes how to remove vrt for wheel chair taxis and make the entry cheaper, they already subsidise WATs by a grant scheme but it's not sufficient IMO

punisher5112

iamtony wrote: »

start your own thread buddy totally off topic.

How is it off topic it's a complaint but the funny part is the nta doesn't want to know.....

I've had it happen where I've booked a taxi on my taxi and 6 agreed and as soon as they got close they cancelled as they would have got a fare at the entrance.

This was at club 92. I walked to the N11 to actually get a taxi to then go pick up the wife back at the club.

They obviously stopped for people out on the road and most likely got a better price as I have seen before where they would say give €50 but the fare would be €20 or so.

Sleeper12

iamtony wrote:

yeah in theory you wouldn't mind but I Google maps will always use the fastest route which can be much much longer and more expensive. As an example going from the airport to stillorgan it will send you around the m50 which would cost about 60 quid while the direct route through the city is about 35. Many many examples of this. And also it doesn't allow for bus lanes which will be quicker etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you but Another side to the coin is that the sat nav knows where there is traffic. The day that poor lady died on the finglas exit my Tom Tom directed me away from it and saved me an hour or more sitting in traffic.

iamtony

punisher5112 wrote: »

How is it off topic it's a complaint but the funny part is the nta doesn't want to know.....

I've had it happen where I've booked a taxi on my taxi and 6 agreed and as soon as they got close they cancelled as they would have got a fare at the entrance.

This was at club 92. I walked to the N11 to actually get a taxi to then go pick up the wife back at the club.

They obviously stopped for people out on the road and most likely got a better price as I have seen before where they would say give €50 but the fare would be €20 or so.

omg you had trouble getting a taxi after niteclub:eek:
And don't get me started on bus drivers:pac:
P. S I never stop in a bus stop unless I reeeaaallyyy have to.

iamtony

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you but Another side to the coin is that the sat nav knows where there is traffic. The day that poor lady died on the finglas exit my Tom Tom directed me away from it and saved me an hour or more sitting in traffic.

I use Google maps for every journey, even collecting my kids from school for this reason but I know better than it for the most part. It might be sending me one way cause traffic is heavy on the normal route but I know I've a bus lane on that road and it wouldn't effect me.
Its a wonderful guide but I wouldn't like my taxi driver using it as gospil that's for sure.

Spook_ie

iamtony wrote: »

I use Google maps for every journey, even collecting my kids from school for this reason but I know better than it for the most part. It might be sending me one way cause traffic is heavy on the normal route but I know I've a bus lane on that road and it wouldn't effect me.
Its a wonderful guide but I wouldn't like my taxi driver using it as gospil that's for sure.

Googlemaps to a driver is the same as a decent set of tools to an electrician etc. It's a tool to help and if you don't know how to use your tools you're just a cowboy.