Does you company offer remote working?

Elessar

A question for developers here - does your current company offer remote working? And if so how many days?

I am seeing more and more anecdotal evidence from friends, via interviews and online that the ability to remote work is now one of the most important considerations for candidates for tech roles. I know two guys who work 80-100% remote for companies in Dublin and they have both said it would critical to have a similar arrangement if they were to go anywhere else, to the extent they were willing to trade other benefits (health insurance, holidays etc) for it.

Do many companies offer this I wonder? I get the impression that many companies here prefer their employees in the office most of the time.

BrokenArrows

I work in London and have complete flexibility to work from home or the office.

I work from home at least 1 day a week. Some weeks I'll never go to the office. Mainly depends on what I need to do outside of work and the weather.

S.M.B.

I also work in London and have flexibility to work from home whenever I want. I find myself only doing it on days when it's convenient.

colm_c

In my last job, and current I have the flexibilty to work from home.

However, I find I am way more productive when colocated with my team in the same location.

Questions, discussions and whiteboarding make it a lot better IMO.

14ned

colm_c wrote: »

However, I find I am way more productive when colocated with my team in the same location.

Questions, discussions and whiteboarding make it a lot better IMO.

In the kind of work I do, days often pass before someone responds to a question from a team member. You are very strongly encouraged to figure stuff out on your own about team member work through self inspection of their code and their commit history. Only ask a question if team members have done something which makes no sense to you, and no amount of study has yielded insight. And expect it to not be answered for days. If a week elapses, you are allowed to ping a reminder.

My kind of work environment is thus basically lots of solo programmers working individually but watching one another's work asynchronously. Gives maximum capacity to not be interrupted or concentration disturbed when writing difficult code, which may take many days to complete. Also very tolerent of wide timezone differences and people's individual peculiar habits. And everything happens over email or git. No IM, phone calls, or other interruptions.

As weird as this may sound to some, what's even weirder is you might be sitting next to the developer in question. Next cube along. You still don't interrupt them, and you still wait up to a week for answers to questions. If, and only if, you just happen to bump into them during a toilet break, you might raise a reminder then. But they are totally able to ignore or defer the request.

Is this too extreme? C++ is a bit traditional and individual centric compared to the newer languages. A rather a bit Ayn Rand lone hero type culture. And perhaps it's also the places I've tended to work, there's a lot of silence most of the day.

Niall

Dante

My place is very flexible around working remotely and adopt an 'as long as you get the work done' type philosophy which I much prefer. I haven't seen some guys on my team in the office in well over half a year. They could be bots at this stage for all I know.

Its quite handy as I often fly back home to Ireland and work from there for weeks at a time. During the busier periods I prefer to be in office but I would really struggle without having that option.

Elessar

Would you guys say it's an important part of the job? If there was another place offering you more money/better perks but you had to be in the office every day, would that work for you?

banana_bear

Elessar wrote:

Would you guys say it's an important part of the job? If there was another place offering you more money/better perks but you had to be in the office every day, would that work for you?

I work from remote 99% of the time, I moved to Ireland from Switzerland and kept working for the same small (30 people) software company. It's a huge thing for me. I would never want a job with a 45+ minute commute anymore (that's 1.5 hours a day, out of the <8 you have after work and sleep). By not having to go into an office at all I probably end up with 2-3 hours extra a day, taking into account lunch breaks etc. Personally, I can't see any amount of money or benefits outweighing this. The only thing that could tempt me would be an incredibly interesting job/project.

smacl

Elessar wrote: »

Would you guys say it's an important part of the job? If there was another place offering you more money/better perks but you had to be in the office every day, would that work for you?

I own and run a small software house and built my office behind the house. No commute is huge for me, but not being in the home with its distractions is also important. I think if you've got responsible employees giving them the option to work remotely is a big bonus and with decent remoting solutions and IP phones very workable. That said, I don't think everyone's home environment is suitable for remote working nor does it suit everyone.

BrokenArrows

Elessar wrote: »

Would you guys say it's an important part of the job? If there was another place offering you more money/better perks but you had to be in the office every day, would that work for you?

It depends on what my commute would be like.

If they money was good enough then I would take it. But it would have to be in the region of 4k better than an equivalent job which allowed working from home. The commute would also have to be reasonable.

threein99

We can WFH two days a month, most people dont bother as you have to apply for it a few days in advance

Creamy Goodness

Current place has WFH policy, problem is it doesn’t really suit my way of working. I’ve too many distractions at home and I find I work better when I’m the office. Family also don’t get it, “shure working from home means you can tidy the sitting room, Hoover the stairs, clear out this or that, it’s practically a day off shure.”

It’s super handy though if you’re getting work done to the house or a trade person is coming over to
Look at a fault appliance etc. But other than that I prefer the 25 minute commute.

beauf

I've been able to do it on contract 2-3 days a week which was a nice balance.

Current place does allow it in other depts, in my dept its only by individual arrangement or if you have unusual circumstances and only some people. I do it from time to time, but they seem not to like it. It would suit me because I mostly work on my own, do most things via email and have very few meetings.

I would switch to somewhere with an active teleworking environment in a heartbeat. But I wouldn't do if I was going to be left unsupported.

Goodshape

14ned wrote: »

In the kind of work I do, days often pass before someone responds to a question from a team member. You are very strongly encouraged to figure stuff out on your own about team member work through self inspection of their code and their commit history.

That sounds pretty great. Do you find that it works well in practice and/or what are the noticeable downsides?

I've done remote work for probably the majority of my career so far but that was mostly freelance or consulting gigs. At the moment I'm full time employed in a small company which doesn't really entertain the idea that developers might work better with some autonomy and freedom. (Otherwise it's a nice place to work though, so, *shrug*).

A huge bugbear of mine is that even a question / communication sent asynchronously via chatroom or email is treated as an invitation to come over and have a lengthy discussion by a few members of the team. Most people are fine and great to work in a room together with, but it only takes one or two with no respect for other peoples time and attention to ruin that dynamic.

I'm convinced, through experience, that I'd get more done if I had the choice of staying home and working through a problem on my own time when it suits. It's not a production-line job where more time in the seat = more units of $product out the door.

Blud

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

My place is very flexible around working remotely and adopt an 'as long as you get the work done' type philosophy which I much prefer. I haven't seen some guys on my team in the office in well over half a year. They could be bots at this stage for all I know.

Its quite handy as I often fly back home to Ireland and work from there for weeks at a time. During the busier periods I prefer to be in office but I would really struggle without having that option.

Working from home in a different country to your company is so dodgy from a tax perspective. Company could get hit, depending on what you're doing, for both corporate tax and also should be withholding Irish PAYE seen as you are physically located here while working. Same thing happens for those working outside Ireland for an Irish company too.

Can cause huge issues.

srsly78

Can cause issues if people are trying to dodge tax you mean. Which happens a lot in fairness!!

I've worked for UK companies in the past while self-employed in Ireland. It just means I'm an exporter of services.

Blud

srsly78 wrote: »

Can cause issues if people are trying to dodge tax you mean. Which happens a lot in fairness!!

I've worked for UK companies in the past while self-employed in Ireland. It just means I'm an exporter of services.

Self employed is different. I'm talking about employees. And there are piles and piles of developers who tho k they are self employed when they are not.

The good news is that it's largely the employers problem, it's always their obligation to operate PAYE if it's due.

Bawnmore

I've complete flexibility on WFH. Would go to the office once a week on average. Working this way about a year and would find it difficult to go back to needing to be in the office. I do agree that it's not for everyone and not everyone has the setup for it at home. I've set up an office at home which I'd struggle without as we've young kids.

Manach

Yes, there is a measure of working from home available where I work. I'd rarely if ever use it though. My commute is long, but there is a clear division between home and work life.

TomSweeney

Yes, I can usually do one day per week, but if I needed to I could do more - it's a great option.
Some people take the piss though, one guy in the office dissapears for months without coming into the office - taking the piss really, one should need to come in at least once every two weeks for face to face to meetings.

hognef

Blud wrote: »

Self employed is different. I'm talking about employees. And there are piles and piles of developers who tho k they are self employed when they are not.

The good news is that it's largely the employers problem, it's always their obligation to operate PAYE if it's due.

It's easy enough to register a business for PAYE. I used to work from home in Ireland for a foreign company, and actually registered it for PAYE and managed its PAYE obligations myself for two years.

On the other hand, I'm sure it can become quite tricky if you and/or your employer just can't be bothered to do things right.

smacl

TomSweeney wrote: »

Yes, I can usually do one day per week, but if I needed to I could do more - it's a great option.
Some people take the piss though, one guy in the office dissapears for months without coming into the office - taking the piss really, one should need to come in at least once every two weeks for face to face to meetings.

You only need a face to face meeting if there is an actual need for one. I've someone working for me in tech support and client management that I mightn't see for a month. Once she does an excellent job, which she usually does, all is good and I'm happier her spending travel time going to a client site than being in the office, or being at home and working instead. It is only taking the piss if the job doesn't get done properly.

.......

We have it and you dont have to apply for it but it seems to be a bit inconsistent depending on who your team lead is.

Certain people have actually hammered out a solid agreement where they work a set number of days a week from home (2 seems to be the max), whereas others just randomly work from home if they have to.

The whole company was asked to work from home during the snow.

I only use it if I have a need to be at home such as a tradesperson coming, or am a bit sick but not too sick to work but dont want to infect the office, or have to be somewhere or have a meeting off site that makes it not worth driving to the office for an hour or so.

The CEO seems to think that we are a flexible workplace but in truth one or two team leads dont like people working from home and make things difficult if people do it more than a day or so a week. I doubt the CEO knows this.

Its odd because we have some teams who absolutely never work from home and some who you never see - simply because of whatever attitude their own team lead has.

beauf

..... sounds very similar to my place.

Other teams have a habit of not communicating except by meetings and phone calls. So no one else knows what they are doing. Unless you are in the meeting or phone call. Which makes working in the office awkward, never mind at home. Completely dysfunctional. I've deliberately distanced myself from these teams and their projects, choosing to take on self contained projects, which allow me to work on my own. Which plays nicely with working from home.

I have an email today about a meeting about communication. But there's no details about the meeting. Knowing who sent it, its not about any real world issues its some HR drivel about passing a parcel around blindfolded.

14ned

Goodshape wrote: »

That sounds pretty great. Do you find that it works well in practice and/or what are the noticeable downsides?

The biggest downside is when you don't spot initially a bleedingly obvious thing and lose many days down a warren hole of research, and then when you eventually ask for help they say "but just do X" and it's an (a) facepalm moment and (b) embarrassing moment.

And it happens to everyone no matter their expertise. I just spent a day and half trying to persuade Linux to bridge an ethernet to a wifi connected in client mode, so my Windows machine can reuse the fancy wifi card in the Linux machine. I'm probably missing something super-simple, but eventually I gave up and just bought a second wifi card. For fifty euro, the problem goes away.

I've done remote work for probably the majority of my career so far but that was mostly freelance or consulting gigs. At the moment I'm full time employed in a small company which doesn't really entertain the idea that developers might work better with some autonomy and freedom. (Otherwise it's a nice place to work though, so, *shrug*).

A huge bugbear of mine is that even a question / communication sent asynchronously via chatroom or email is treated as an invitation to come over and have a lengthy discussion by a few members of the team. Most people are fine and great to work in a room together with, but it only takes one or two with no respect for other peoples time and attention to ruin that dynamic.

I'm convinced, through experience, that I'd get more done if I had the choice of staying home and working through a problem on my own time when it suits. It's not a production-line job where more time in the seat = more units of $product out the door.

I can see why people, upon receiving a message asking for help, skip over to you at a time of their convenience not yours. I can also see the attraction of getting out of one's house, though I personally don't feel that unless I have my children or wife at me.

Me personally, I've never felt a day onsite wasted by pointlessness was my problem. It's the org's problem. A day wasted when I'm offsite doesn't feel like the org's problem, it feels like mine. But maybe I'm unusual about that.

For me personally, I've never felt being onsite led to higher personal productivity. But I can see from the org's perspective, me being onsite leads to higher average productivity. Hence why all the big tech multinationals so strongly discourage remote working, and won't hire on a guarantee of remote.

Niall

B-D-P--

Work 2 days a week from home, Love it. Dont think I'd like more, I like the interaction in office with people too.

MillField

It's offered at my company. Some people work remotely one day per week, but you would have to put in a request for this. The odd day here or there would be no issue.

runawaybishop

Elessar wrote: »

Would you guys say it's an important part of the job? If there was another place offering you more money/better perks but you had to be in the office every day, would that work for you?

WFH policies are one of the cheapest perks to give and many people would take WFH a couple days a week over a job with better cash. Not having to commute can make a job very attractive and open to more candidates.

moycullen14

It's a great way for orgs to hold on to people. You get very used to it and people would be very reluctant to give it up.

I work two days a week from home, could do more but I prefer going in to the office. Main reason to do it is to avoid the commute and the expense. I'm finding the commute is getting worse as time goes by and I'm happy to give the company the time I would otherwise spend in the car.

One problem with I have with WFH is finishing the day. Much harder to make the psychological break when all you are doing is leaving a room.

For all the advances in electronic communication, nothing beats a face to face with someone. You tend to lose that with WFH. Not to mention the 'Can you put out the washing' requests you invariably get.

If an org properly supports remote working then it's a small step for them to outsource development completely - setting up remote offices in cheaper locations. Physical presence cuts both ways.

Prospector1989

We have the option to when required but it's not encouraged to do it regularly. Saying that if I knew that I needed to be home during the day tomorrow, there'd be no issue.

14ned

runawaybishop wrote: »

WFH policies are one of the cheapest perks to give and many people would take WFH a couple days a week over a job with better cash. Not having to commute can make a job very attractive and open to more candidates.

I definitely can vouch for this. My last contract onsite in Dublin the entire team were all senior and all were remote working, and they were earning a very substantial discount to market pricing. Many of them asked me if there were any roles that I knew of going where remote working was guaranteed, as they knew they were missing out on the juicy pay rises recently seen in Irish tech. Indeed, they hadn't seen a pay rise above inflation in a decade!

My reply was that yes there are plenty of roles where remote working may be given after a year onsite or so. But very, very few where it's written into the contract from the beginning.

I'd personally say the lack of guaranteed remote working substantially reduces the pool of very experienced developers available for any given opening. Maybe Irish companies will learn this one day. There are plenty of very experienced Irish devs who'd love to take a new opportunity, but they don't want to give up working from the west coast (or Australia, in one case).

Niall

smacl

moycullen14 wrote: »

If an org properly supports remote working then it's a small step for them to outsource development completely - setting up remote offices in cheaper locations. Physical presence cuts both ways.

Makes a huge amount of sense all round when you think about it. People working close to where they live in decent accommodation and nice surroundings with minimal commute. Once you can effectively manage remote office based staff, there is no reason to base them in a major city unless they're providing a service that is needed at that location. As an employer you could also get much more for your salary bill on this basis because you're the one ultimately paying for the overpriced accommodation and associated commute costs.

IMO, there's also a lot to be said for using highly skilled short term contractors working off-site rather than FTEs for many development tasks.

yop

9 years working remotely for a lot of different companies and roles.
I was commuting from Westport to Dublin for close on 2 years almost daily but lucky that then when 2 of the companies offered me remote. I then built a separate office space and that has worked out since.
I now commute twice per week to Galway, its 1 hour in the morning (Leave at 6am) and 1.5 hours in the evening. I find when onsite I do less work but more F2F discussion/chat.
I usually work 9-10 hours a day at home, but while I'm onsite for 10 hours I probably do 8 hours with breaks, breakfast, lunch etc.

What I'm finding is that companies in Ireland aren't advertising the fact that u can do remote, so its hard to gauge if they will offer it. In the role I'm in at the moment it would be harder to find.
But in development roles, which I want to get back to, its more common. UK seems to offer more chances of remote.

Franz Von Peppercorn

1-2 days from home. More than that bores me a bit. I like the bustle of the city centre and going for lunch with collleagues or other friends who work close by.

I also like sleep though and don’t like the commute hence the 1-2 days.

counterpointaud

Yes, my employer has project teams made up of people all across Europe and the US, so going to the office is completely optional. I WFH 100% apart from team meetups 3 times a year in rotating European cities (rotated for fairness of travelling time imposed).

In my case, there are a few people on the same project, in the same local office, but team communication is encouraged to take place on Slack anyway so the only reason to go in is if you prefer to work there, which I don't.

I get its not for everyone, I am just more productive working from home, not sure why. It isn't as if the commute is stopping me either, the office is a few minutes drive away.

When I started there 4ish years ago, this arrangement seemed quite rare. Going by this thread, it seems to be becoming more common, which I think is great.

Earthhorse

In my old job you could work from home one day a week. But really, the whole thing was unsupervised so you could work from home as often as you liked. It was great not having to take a day off if an electrician were coming over or you were expecting a delivery and I loved the fact that it was unsupervised because it felt like the company was treating me like an adult and a not a child who needed minding.

The policy isn’t as clear cut in my new job but I think I’ve made a favorable enough impression to ask about availing of it before my probation period is over.

Like a lot of people here I found one day at home a week was enough and it actually made me appreciate going in to the office more (it was good to mix it up). Many of the devs in my old job were scattered across Europe so a lot of them were effectively working remotely anyway.

It’s a really cool benefit that costs the company almost nothing and in my opinion will become standard in a lot of workplaces soon.

jobless

i work nearly exclusively from home and although i could earn more if i moved id be reluctant to give it up.... 2 hrs+ commute a day saved plus factoring in saved commute costs i wouldnt be that much better off...

Its a great feeling on a sunday night knowing i dont have to battle my way along the m50 on monday morning

devlinio

I'd like the option to work from home in my next job. I'm currently on the job hunt, so this would really sway me towards a company.\

I'd only like 1-2 days per week. I like being in the office, getting to know my colleagues ect. But I also like being at home.

14ned

devlinio wrote: »

I'd only like 1-2 days per week. I like being in the office, getting to know my colleagues ect. But I also like being at home.

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

Atomic Pineapple

Mr.S wrote: »

I can't think why employers don't allow their staff to work from home in 2019. It's always one of my first questions when interviewing, I wouldn't bother if they didn't allow it.

It depends on the context, for many roles there can be drawbacks to allowing work from home. Creativity and innovation go down, social communication practices counter-intuitively become more complex, paradoxically monitoring increases, and over time there is a risk of deskilling through detachment.

I used to work from home 100% of the time and it was detrimental to my skill building and career development. I'd now turn down an offer from a company that actively promotes working from home. But as I said it depends on the context, for me, there are too many negative aspects of 100% remote work, for others, it will be the opposite.

BrokenArrows

14ned wrote: »

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

Bawnmore

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

As an alternative to this, some days I'll work from BOI Workbench which sounds like the same setup but with no cost/contract. I'll drop in and work from there for a change of scenery sometimes even though we have an office close by to it.

14ned

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

I have preschool children, so it's an unavoidable expense.

€325/month for a private room inc VAT. Hotdesking is significantly cheaper, but I come with a lot of custom equipment.

Niall

smacl

14ned wrote: »

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs. One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

smacl

14ned wrote: »

€325/month for a private room inc VAT. Hotdesking is significantly cheaper, but I come with a lot of custom equipment.

Good price and who wants to hot desk? A room with a door (and a window or two!) is minimum requirements in my book.

14ned

smacl wrote: »

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs.

Most coworking spaces have breakout rooms, meeting rooms, social rooms etc. This one I'm in has all of those.

One thing you can't do is have members of the public come in though, as there isn't insurance to cover public liability. That basically reduces those here to professionals who don't need to see people. We're a bit over half full, no idea if the landlord is getting ROI though.

One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

Best you can get in Mallow town without paying silly money is 400Mbit. Which is what we have shared in the coworking building.

I have to personally say that the 70Mbit VDSL I have into my home out in the sticks is more than plenty. I would be fine on 50Mbit to be honest. Upload is decent, 20Mbit, enough for my needs. Pricey for what it is, though my business pays it ex VAT pre tax, so it's half the effective cost than the sticker price.

Niall

14ned

smacl wrote: »

Good price and who wants to hot desk? A room with a door (and a window or two!) is minimum requirements in my book.

Here's it's about a 50/50 split. Hotdesking is surprisingly popular.

But I've noticed the hotdesking folks basically spend their days on their laptops and ringing people. So if you like open plan offices with noise, and your work doesn't suffer for it, then I guess it suits.

(I know one of our hotdeskers is a USA wedding planner, another manages ESB grids, don't know about the others)

Niall

bswan

smacl wrote: »

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs. One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

Co-working spaces popping up everywhere in London these days

LimeFruitGum

My last employer were very pro remote working. I was a line manager there and I was offered a remote contract upfront. They had two offices in Dublin, but they’re tiny. Also none of my project team were in Ireland, so I had no reason to go in.

I have to say, I found remote team management frustrating. My direct reports were recent graduates and they could have done with someone on site for on-the-spot support. They were all in different time zones, as was my client. I’d prefer to line manage on site with a couple of remotes, instead of an all-remote team.

Sure, I had no commute, but I was far working longer hours. Often, I would be online when my partner went to work in town, and I would be on the US client calls by the time he came home. It comes with the territory of the industry, but I realize I would prefer to do a couple of days in the office, so it forces me to stay social and make myself known in the company.

pauliebdub

Nothing at all in my current place, a well known managed services company not even Flexi time.

rn

There's a legal obligation on the company that allow wfh that the home office space is compliant from a h&s point of view in Ireland. Those shared office spaces solve a lot of potential problems.

There's also legal implications for employees who reside in another country from their ordinary place of work. Basically companies are legally obliged to operate in that country they have facilitated the employee to live in. That usually implies big costs for the employer.