January 2019 - new EV sales

RedorDead

Is this the year that EVs gain critical mass? Impressive January numbers compared to last January in fairness.

Sales increase from 104 to 811 - a 680% increase. Model breakdown here:



Kona EV the 27th top selling car and Leaf the 31st.

PaulRyan97

Didn't think I'd see the Leaf knocked off the top spot that quickly. Kona is doing very well despite the price.

ELM327

You're missing the two most important parts,
200% increase in Model X sales, and a Twizy was sold!

Mike9832

Wow at Kona sales

Didn't think a market for a 40k small car existed

Shocked

KCross

The question is.... are those 311 Kona's it for the year, or will they get more?
They did this for the Ioniq too... a burst of them when it was released and then almost nothing after that.

ELM327

Hopefully they bring a new batch with better spec

iniall

RedorDead wrote: »

Is this the year that EVs gain critical mass? Impressive January numbers compared to last January in fairness.

Sales increase from 104 to 811 - a 680% increase. Model breakdown here:



Kona EV the 27th top selling car and Leaf the 31st.

How come two Golf figures? If one's the E-Golf, what's the other one?

Mike9832

10k subsidy can't last much longer with 680% sale increase?

Kona alone was subsidised at a cost of
€3,000,000 to tax payer

I better buy an EV quick lol

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

The question is.... are those 311 Kona's it for the year, or will they get more?
They did this for the Ioniq too... a burst of them when it was released and then almost nothing after that.

Yeah they dont have the production to keep that going, sold out for months all over Europe

Nissan do though

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

10k subsidy can't last much longer with 680% sale increase?

Kona alone was subsidised at a cost of
€3,000,000 to tax payer

I better buy an EV quick lol

Indeed, PHEV and Hybrid grants will go first... this year or next, I predict.

BEV subsidies will get reduced over 2-3 years then once they see the spike in sales from 2020 on, with VW delivering the Neo in volume at that stage plus Model 3.

Mupchease

iniall wrote: »

How come two Golf figures? If one's the E-Golf, what's the other one?

I was wondering that myself. According to the Irish ev owners website the egolf sales are 31

Possibly the hybrid gte ?

Denisoftus

Mike9832 wrote: »

10k subsidy can't last much longer with 680% sale increase?

Kona alone was subsidised at a cost of
€3,000,000 to tax payer

I better buy an EV quick lol

Tax on diesel is 12c less than on petrol, how much did IT cost to taxpayer?

slave1

LOL 77 Zoe battery rentals

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

LOL 77 Zoe battery rentals

Zoe is not sold with rental anymore in Ireland.

Round Cable

slave1 wrote: »

LOL 77 Zoe battery rentals

Renault no longer offer battery rental in Ireland.

stimpson

KCross wrote: »

Indeed, PHEV and Hybrid grants will go first... this year or next, I predict.

BEV subsidies will get reduced over 2-3 years then once they see the spike in sales from 2020 on, with VW delivering the Neo in volume at that stage plus Model 3.

€3M is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount we'll be paying in carbon fines. When 25% of cars on the road (not new car sales) are electric then they will start to back off on the incentives.

The 811 cars on that list are only 2.1% of the total car sales for the month (37,000)

daheff

Mupchease wrote: »

I was wondering that myself. According to the Irish ev owners website the egolf sales are 31

Possibly the hybrid gte ?

Dont think thats the hybrid. These must be pure BEV or wrong!

I bought a Niro PHEV and its not on the list! I'm sure i'm not the only one judging by dealer comments.

RedorDead

iniall wrote: »

How come two Golf figures? If one's the E-Golf, what's the other one?

I'd say just a classification error - all should be classified as E-Golfs.

Mickeroo

Maybe they've put the executive model and the standard one separate.

KCross

stimpson wrote: »

€3M is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount we'll be paying in carbon fines. When 25% of cars on the road (not new car sales) are electric then they will start to back off on the incentives.

The 811 cars on that list are only 2.1% of the total car sales for the month (37,000)

For sure its a drop in the ocean but the fines coming down the track are not going to be solved by EV's alone so I dont think that will be a significant part of the decision.

The UK have already backed off on their incentives for BEV. I believe they got rid of PHEV and hybrid grants entirely and whatever UK does we quicky follow suit.

There is no way an Irish government will give a €10k grant for 25% BEV penetration. There would be uproar for that. Thats €5b in grants... zero chance of that.

daheff

i think once purchase prices start to drop to more obtainable levels, grants will disappear here.....so think 2021/22 when VW push out their range.

stimpson

KCross wrote: »

For sure its a drop in the ocean but the fines coming down the track are not going to be solved by EV's alone so I dont think that will be a significant part of the decision.

The UK have already backed off on their incentives for BEV. I believe they got rid of PHEV and hybrid grants entirely and whatever UK does we quicky follow suit.

There is no way an Irish government will give a €10k grant for 25% BEV penetration. There would be uproar for that. Thats €5b in grants... zero chance of that.

UK PHEV grant (for cars >50g CO2) was 4.5K and has been reduced to 3.5K - the same as a BEV.

Not sure where you're getting the 10K grant. VRT grants here are on a sliding scale from 2K-5K.

BEV/PHEV penetration is nowhere near the targets (42% of sales, 10% penetration by 2020) so I'd expect incentives for some time yet.

Just goes to show how grossly over priced Zoe 40 is, decent spec what, 31 or 32 K ? madness.

Well done to Hyundai, just goes to show I was right when I said people will start to notice when 60 Kwh or 300 Km range cars come on the market.......

Hope to see a lot more on the road, only seen about 1 or 2 just glad I don't have to worry about public charging !!!

It kind of makes the Leaf 40 look over priced too, although both are higher equipped than the Kona.

Just a shame Hyundai Ireland still insist of not in any way allowing an Irish buyer choose anything only 1 trim, this is wrong and people need to put pressure on Hyundai Ireland, not their local dealers to stop this racket !

I'm actually quite surprised to see the i3 in 5th place up 800 odd % !

No doubt the 40 Kwh helps.

KCross

stimpson wrote: »

UK PHEV grant (for cars >50g CO2) was 4.5K and has been reduced to 3.5K - the same as a BEV.

You have that wrong.

PHEV/Hybrid grants are gone in the UK.

BEV was reduced from 4500 to 3500 which is the obvious signal that its on the way out.
https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants

Dont you think it will be reduced again in another year or two and then again a year or two after that... the grants will be gone in the UK in a few short years.

And the Irish govt will be right behind them.

stimpson wrote: »

Not sure where you're getting the 10K grant. VRT grants here are on a sliding scale from 2K-5K.

€5k grant and €5k VRT exemption... the full €10k applies to any EV over €35k

You're crazy if you think the govt are going to pay billions in grants for EV's.... look at the uproar over €2b for a childrens hospital and you think the public would accept billions in grants for middle class people to buy new EV's!

I think emissions breeches will cost us far more and we, the taxpayer will be footing the bill.

The Hospital is an absolute disgrace and typical of the Government, making companies, consultants rich from the taxpayer not giving a toss because it's paid by the tax payer at least grants for EVs go to towards the public interest, I'm not against the hospital but the waste and lack of regard for public money is shocking.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

I think emissions breeches will cost us far more and we, the taxpayer will be footing the bill.

The Hospital is an absolute disgrace and typical of the Government, making companies, consultants rich from the taxpayer not giving a toss because it's paid by the tax payer at least grants for EVs go to towards the public interest, I'm not against the hospital but the waste and lack of regard for public money is shocking.

A lot of people don't realise we have two targets: reduction in emissions of green house gases and also a commitment to produce 16% of our energy from renewable sources. We're not going to hit either target.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

A lot of people don't realise we have two targets: reduction in emissions of green house gases and also a commitment to produce 16% of our energy from renewable sources. We're not going to hit either target.

We're not a million miles off the 16%, but to get any mass penetration of renewables (since our renewables are predominantly wind) we need more battery storage or other load balancing.


Ireland as a country can be energy neutral, we just need storage of wind energy and offshore windfarms off the west coast.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

A lot of people don't realise we have two targets: reduction in emissions of green house gases and also a commitment to produce 16% of our energy from renewable sources. We're not going to hit either target.

We could be close with out electricity targets if we had to invest in wind energy but instead there’s only wind energy with perhaps some tiny commercial PV installations and some domestic.

If you look at the eirgrid site and see the current energy mix on the grid you can see as much as 65% wind energy and other times 3% or less.

If we had solar we could greatly increase our total green energy to the grid but it appears the the powers that be still think wind is the best and only solution for Ireland.

Water John

To achieve a major switch from fossil to renewable energy is tied in with using renewable electricity. In the house it ranges from robot electric mowers to EVs.
This needs about a tripling of our national electrical output.
Solar can come on stream quite quickly if the Govn't put a price there for it. The build time for the average solar project 5Mw, that has planning is 14 weeks.
Evs are a significant distributed storage option.

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

We're not a million miles off the 16%, but to get any mass penetration of renewables (since our renewables are predominantly wind) we need more battery storage or other load balancing.


Ireland as a country can be energy neutral, we just need storage of wind energy and offshore windfarms off the west coast.

Renewables largely stalled when Denis Naughten was in charge. If you read the background it was the anti wind turbine lobby in his own constituency that basically dictated his position. If he was seen to be allowing turbines he'd be shown the door in the next election. Anyway, he's gone now, so things might change.

There is some battery storoage on the grid already, and ESB are putting in a battery in Poolbeg.

I'm not sure we could ever be energy neutral. Too many houses out there already with gas or oil boilers, open fires etc. There is no doubt we could do way better though (if Brexit impacts our beef industry enough, our GHG emissions will come down, maybe to the point of avoiding any fines, but that's for another thread).

The very last thing Ireland needs is more wind farms , we got far too much wind on the grid and have to export or turn off farms at times of peak production as only 65% can go to the grid.

The only real way forward is solar PV to make up for times of low wind production.

We could heat our homes with electricity and charge our cars all day long if the grid was up to scratch, there's still nobody thinking of 3 phase power to new homes. In Germany they wouldn't even think of single phase to homes and can have much more solar PV on the grid than Paddy is allowed. We are decades behind...............

Water John

AFAIK you can go to 125amps here on single phase connection, that's plenty.
Cars with larger batteries eg Kona, will almost always be charged at home or at workplace.
Solar could charge many EVs during the day and wind at night. That is distributed storage.
Maybe even a step further, use the car to power the home at peak use time in the evening and recharge at night. Even out the grid.

unkel

Water John wrote: »

Maybe even a step further, use the car to power the home at peak use time in the evening and recharge at night. Even out the grid.

The average car is parked 95% of the time. The simple solution is staring us right in the face. Charge them with excess renewables - discharge them at peak times

A million EVs * 50kWh usable for the grid per car = 50GWh sitting right there doing nothing (in about 15-20 years time). How many GWh does Ireland use per day at the moment for comparison?

Round Cable

unkel wrote: »

How many GWh does Ireland use per day at the moment for comparison?

About 90GWh per day.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

AFAIK you can go to 125amps here on single phase connection, that's plenty.
Cars with larger batteries eg Kona, will almost always be charged at home or at workplace.
Solar could charge many EVs during the day and wind at night. That is distributed storage.
Maybe even a step further, use the car to power the home at peak use time in the evening and recharge at night. Even out the grid.

I didn't think it was 128 amps on single phase ?

That's not much good to me if I have a car that needs 3 phase to charge at full rate of 11 Kw or a Zoe owner wanting 22 Kw all has to be 3 phase, heat pumps need 3 phase afaik.

It's also no good if I have more than 5 Kw/p of solar pv because the max allowed to the grid is around 5.5 Kw.

3 phase needs serious consideration but it's not even on the radar of the ESB or contractors, at least homes should be wired for 3 phase and if they want it in the future it would be easy to connect.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't think it was 128 amps on single phase ?

That's not much good to me if I have a car that needs 3 phase to charge at full rate of 11 Kw or a Zoe owner wanting 22 Kw all has to be 3 phase, heat pumps need 3 phase afaik.

It's also no good if I have more than 5 Kw/p of solar pv because the max allowed to the grid is around 5.5 Kw.

3 phase needs serious consideration but it's not even on the radar of the ESB or contractors, at least homes should be wired for 3 phase and if they want it in the future it would be easy to connect.

Heat pumps dont need 3 phase.

You have a fascination with 3-phase. If you got 3-phase in your house in the morning for free it would make very little difference to you and its not required for EV charging even if you have 2 EV's.

In a domestic setting, what matters most is the max current allowed, not the number of phases.

Even in France and Germany where 3-phase is common, they have a similar kVA rating to us for each house... 12-16kVA. So you can get the same power to your EV in either case just thats its being delivered across 3 phases rather than one. Its more efficient to do it via 3 phases but it wouldnt matter much to you really.

3 phase is really only needed for compressors and motors where they have high startup currents hence why its primarily for commercial premises. Your TV, kettle, dishwasher etc dont use 3 phase and if you got 3-phase they would still be running off one of those phases, not 3. I know some appliances can be bought in 3 phase but its no great advantage to you.

Would it be better if every house had a 3 phase supply... yes.
Is it remotely viable to consider switching the country to 3-phase... no.

How is it of no advantage ?, 2 electric cars at home and need to charge a lot faster ? not all the time but would be handy when they need it.

Or when DC chargers become cheap enough this could offer a lot of advantages for people who might need a quick top up and might not live too close to a DC charger.

Zoe owners for instance could top much faster at home if they had 3 phase supply. Of course no one needs that all the time but it would be convenient when they need to.

Not everyone will want to pay 3 - 4 times or more to charge at fast chargers, a lot of people won't have the choice but there are a lot that probably would like to be able to charge fast at home.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

How is it of no advantage ?, 2 electric cars at home and need to charge a lot faster ?

You're not getting KCross' point. If your supply is limited to 16kVA, you won't be able to fast charge 2 cars at 11kW 3 phase 16A each. You would barely be able to charge one at that speed

If you have one EV and a fairly limited supply, you have an edge alright. You would be able to charge your i3 in 3 hours instead of 4. Big deal anyway

In a few decades, we'd probably need more than 16kVA to our houses alright. No more fossil fuel burning means everything will be electric. But whether we go 3 phase or not is fairly immaterial.

Water John

In ESB Statement of Charges p5 it has Special Connection (single phase) both 20kVA and 29kVA are listed.
The standard is 12kVA and the Upgrade Connection is 16kVA.
Perhaps someone knows what a Special Connection is?
I know the standard tractor generator on dairy farms would be 33kVA (single phase)

KCross

Water John wrote: »

In ESB Statement of Charges p5 it has Special Connection (single phase) both 20kVA and 29kVA are listed.
The standard is 12kVA and the Upgrade Connection is 16kVA.
Perhaps someone knows what a Special Connection is?
I know the standard tractor generator on dairy farms would be 33kVA (single phase)

A special connection is where you drop the pants and bend over and pay all the ground work required to bring the increased supply to your house.

To get the upgrade from 12kVa to 16kVA you pay a set fee dictated by the regulator. Doesnt matter if new poles or upgraded transformers are required, ESB have to provide it at that rate. Its a communal rate set across all customers.

A "Special connection" basically means all bets are off. You pay whatever ESB networks demand based on what work is required on their side. That could be literally anything depending on where the MV network is relative to your house. Rest assured it will be in the thousands, possibly even 10s of thousands.

Water John

Think it would be mostly focussed on the localised transformer. In rural areas that quite often is a dedicated unit. Might be more problematic in urban areas.

3 phase in rural areas tends to be in the €10/15 K range.

It would be very handy for me, transformer on pole at the bottom of the garden lol. 3 phase line right over the garden which is a real pain in the ass for when I get my Amateur radio licence as it will greatly restrict my ability to erect a big vertical antenna....

Water John

I presume the transformer is a single phase stepdown from the three phase line. You'd be paying for a three phase transformer.

I am sure it would be 3 phase, the ESB lads who installed the meter said I'm sorted if ever I needed it 3 phase with line and pole already in the garden.

Indeed it would cost.

I'm still living with 3.5 Kw AC by the way lol.

daheff

unkel wrote: »

The average car is parked 95% of the time. The simple solution is staring us right in the face. Charge them with excess renewables - discharge them at peak times

A million EVs * 50kWh usable for the grid per car = 50GWh sitting right there doing nothing (in about 15-20 years time). How many GWh does Ireland use per day at the moment for comparison?

The only thing about using the stored power in the car battery is that when its used during peak time, its no longer available for people to drive.

So let say I charge my car overnight. I drive to work. Car is then plugged in to discharge while I work. all the power gets used...how do i get home?

The idea of using the car as a battery pack only really makes sense (to me) when i charge it on a friday night and use connect it back to discharge to my house when I'm done using it on sat/sun afternoons -at which pointit might be nearly empty. Surely its a better idea to have a battery pack for my home?

KCross

daheff wrote: »

The only thing about using the stored power in the car battery is that when its used during peak time, its no longer available for people to drive.

So let say I charge my car overnight. I drive to work. Car is then plugged in to discharge while I work. all the power gets used...how do i get home?

The idea of using the car as a battery pack only really makes sense (to me) when i charge it on a friday night and use connect it back to discharge to my house when I'm done using it on sat/sun afternoons -at which pointit might be nearly empty. Surely its a better idea to have a battery pack for my home?

The current Vehicle 2 Grid systems dont look to fully discharge your car. It might take 10%(2kWh) and it would also be configurable by the owner.

ELM327

I'll be opting out of that for sure, what a silly notion.

I think the main idea would be to use the batteries for dumping greener energy rather than sucking it back out of them.

unkel

daheff wrote: »

The only thing about using the stored power in the car battery is that when its used during peak time, its no longer available for people to drive.

Oh no, you can use the car whenever you damn like. But fact is that the average car is sitting parked somewhere 95% of the time, not being used. During that time it should be charged or discharged depending on the market rate of electricity.

As in very cheap on a sunny day, on a windy day or in the middle of the night and really expensive early evening when there is no wind or sun and demand is at its highest

Use a car battery like this to the max and you should be able to make the electricity you use in the house pretty much completely free most of the year...

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Use a car battery like this to the max and you should be able to make the electricity you use in the house pretty much completely free most of the year...

This is the only way I would consider it.
But to make it free you'd need a DC charger at home. Otherwise you could be stuck waiting hours for the car to charge after someone sucked the energy from your battery but you need to leave.