can a guard demand my name at a filling station? ]

LeoHughes

ask for my name and address at a petrol station and if i refused could he arrest me for not giving it

Claw Hammer

LeoHughes wrote: »

ask for my name and address at a petrol station and if i refused could he arrest me for not giving it

Yes.

Mr. Incognito

Yes

BarryD2

LeoHughes wrote: »

ask for my name and address at a petrol station and if i refused could he arrest me for not giving it

Why wouldn't you give it, if asked by the Gardai??

Effects

No

Shelli2

I wouldn't think so, unless he has reason to believe and offence is being comitted and I thought he would have to explain this to you?

More context is needed here.

NUTLEY BOY

What are the actual full facts ?

Write it up as a "theoretical" post.

Auguste Comte

The Guard can make a legal demand for your information under certain circumstances and arrest you to establish your identity if you refuse to give it.

MrStuffins

In a petrol station? No! The Garda can't do this.

See, Petrol Stations are a place where all Garda authority disappears. In fact, i'm very surprised that a Guard was even able to be on the premises. Patrol stations to Guards are like Churches to Vampires...... they can't frequent them lest they burst into flames!

Mod
MrStuffins - this forum is for legal discussion, rather than nonsense

seamus

If you arrived at the petrol station as the driver of a vehicle, yes.

Otherwise, no.

uncommon_name

You need to give a lot more information here, why is the guard looking for this information?, what did you do?, what does he think you done?, why are you there? Why is he there (to look for someone/you)?.
If he came up to you randomly when you were doing absolutely nothing then I think no, but if he saw you do something he thinks was against the law then yes he can. Just ask him why does he want your information what did you do, he should just tell you and then if there is a reason then you have to give it.

I suppose if he wants the information he can just make something up so you legally have to give it to him.

So moral of the story is, just give the information to him.

Victor

LeoHughes wrote: »

ask for my name and address at a petrol station and if i refused could he arrest me for not giving it

There are specific pieces of legislation which could be invoked.

I think you would be detained, not arrested.

Auguste Comte

seamus wrote: »

If you arrived at the petrol station as the driver of a vehicle, yes.

Otherwise, no.

What if the op walked but there is a history of crime in the local area?

Dakota Dan

LeoHughes wrote: »

ask for my name and address at a petrol station and if i refused could he arrest me for not giving it

No, but a Garda could.

uncommon_name

Dakota Dan wrote: »

No, but a Garda could.

Good point, was it a security guard or a Garda.

Breaston Plants

Was he wearing his hat? ðŸ˜

seamus

Auguste Comte wrote: »

What if the op walked but there is a history of crime in the local area?

Irrelevant.

If you are walking down the street a Garda can ask for your name and address but you are not generally obliged to provide it.

Different laws empower Gardai to demand a name and address under specific circumstances. From the driver of any vehicle is one of them. If they believe you have committed an offence is another.

However, the latter requires some level of evidence. "You're a young lad and I heard young lads were causing trouble in the park yesterday", is not good enough.

That said, why anyone would ever refuse their name and address is beyond me. You haven't done anything wrong, so don't waste everyone's time because you have some idealised version of yourself as Che Guevara. We don't live in a police state.

4ensic15

A petrol station is a public place. A garda may stop any vehicle in a public place and demand of the driver:- a driving licence, evidence of NCT and Insurance. If any of these are not produced the garda can then demand the person's name and address.

Richmond Ultra

4ensic15 wrote: »

A petrol station is a public place. A garda may stop any vehicle in a public place and demand of the driver:- a driving licence, evidence of NCT and Insurance. If any of these are not produced the garda can then demand the person's name and address.

107/109 road traffic act 1961

Fann Linn

seamus wrote: »

Irrelevant.

If you are walking down the street a Garda can ask for your name and address but you are not generally obliged to provide it.

Different laws empower Gardai to demand a name and address under specific circumstances. From the driver of any vehicle is one of them. If they believe you have committed an offence is another.

However, the latter requires some level of evidence. "You're a young lad and I heard young lads were causing trouble in the park yesterday", is not good enough.

That said, why anyone would ever refuse their name and address is beyond me. You haven't done anything wrong, so don't waste everyone's time because you have some idealised version of yourself as Che Guevara. We don't live in a police state.

Yet.

LeoHughes

ok will filling diesel and went into shop to pay and get sandwiches, GF said a cop pulled up beside her and asked for her name and address.

Canis Lupus

LeoHughes wrote: »

ok will filling diesel and went into shop to pay and get sandwiches, GF said a cop pulled up beside her and asked for her name and address.

Is your GF hot?

LeoHughes

4ensic15 wrote: »

A petrol station is a public place. A garda may stop any vehicle in a public place and demand of the driver:- a driving licence, evidence of NCT and Insurance. If any of these are not produced the garda can then demand the person's name and address.

so could they ask you, say in a lidl car park?

LeoHughes

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Is your GF hot?

she alright lol

Canis Lupus

LeoHughes wrote: »

she alright lol

Your GF is going to break up with you and date a policeman shortly.

4ensic15

LeoHughes wrote: »

so could they ask you, say in a lidl car park?

Yes.

sbsquarepants

LeoHughes wrote: »

so could they ask you, say in a lidl car park?

Could they, would they, in a park?

What's the problem?
I've never even seen you, or your alright looking soon to be ex girlfriend and I'd say your name is Leo Hughes!

seamus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Could they, would they, in a park?

They could and they would if they had a reason. I got done for speeding after I had pulled into a car park and parked up. Cop pulled in behind me and told me he'd clocked me out on the main road.

A public place is any place that "members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise".

So it's pretty broad. Any car park for use by the public, is a public place, whether or not it has barriers, whether or not it's on private land, and whether or not it closes at night.

fxotoole

Breaston Plants wrote: »

Was he wearing his hat? ðŸ˜

Was he on his oath?

DellyBelly

Never understand why someone doesn't give their name and address to the police if asked. If you have done nothing wrong then I don't know why you should be worried.

Obviously the police in Ireland at the moment don't have a great reputation with the public what with all the corruption etc...however i believe most cops are decent and only want to do their jobs as best as they can

dalta5billion

DellyBelly wrote: »

Never understand why someone doesn't give their name and address to the police if asked. If you have done nothing wrong then I don't know why you should be worried.

Obviously the police in Ireland at the moment don't have a great reputation with the public what with all the corruption etc...however i believe most cops are decent and only want to do their jobs as best as they can

I think it's fair to ensure they've got a jolly good reason for requesting it. Not being personal here, but are you a man? I think women have to deal with creeps and stalkers a lot more so are more cautious of this sort of request.

ArthurG

dalta5billion wrote: »

......I think women have to deal with creeps and stalkers a lot more so are more cautious of this sort of request.

It was a Garda who asked, not some randomer on the street :rolleyes:

Prisoner6409

I find this thread very interesting. If you look on YouTube you will see lots of videos of people in the USA coming out on top of an altercation with a cop that has stopped them in a car or just approached on the street. In many of these videos you will see the cops do not know the laws and how they should be implemented and try to bully or coerce ppl into being compliant. The point is in the states people seem to be much more aware of their rights when interacting with the police whereas here an I include myself in this, we do not really know the ins and outs of dealing with the police when you have not broken any laws. I would accept that giving your name to a Guard who politely asked for it and had a reason, good or bad to ask you is tame enough but things can get out of hand.

Johnny Red Cab

The US has exclusionary rules that render unlawfully obtained evidence inadmissible. So if a traffic stop is unlawful everything that comes afterwards is excluded.

Ruraldweller56

But the poor gard is just trying to do his Job all Gards are weally sound and are just trying to help people

Johnny Red Cab

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

But the poor gard is just trying to do his Job all Gards are weally sound and are just trying to help people

LOL! If you believe that I worry for humanity.

RustyNut

DellyBelly wrote: »

Never understand why someone doesn't give their name and address to the police if asked. If you have done nothing wrong then I don't know why you should be worried.

If you are obliged to give your details then obviously you should. If you are not however it might be in your best intrest not to have your details on the Garda Pulse system.
One reason for this would be to prevent crimes being mistakenly attached to your record with all the associated problems that this might cause you.

There have been other cases of information from the PULSE system being released to private organisations that might not be in the best intrest of the individuals involved.

It's not as simple as if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

fxotoole

RustyNut wrote: »

If you are obliged to give your details then obviously you should. If you are not however it might be in your best intrest not to have your details on the Garda Pulse system.
One reason for this would be to prevent crimes being mistakenly attached to your record with all the associated problems that this might cause you.

There have been other cases of information from the PULSE system being released to private organisations that might not be in the best intrest of the individuals involved.

It's not as simple as if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

Surely this would be a massive data protection and/or GDPR breach, and the Gardai would be hammered by the EU if that happened? Or are law enforcement exempt from GDPR?

Ruraldweller56

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

LOL! If you believe that I worry for humanity.

All Gards are really sound and people should do as they say if they have nothing to hide and certainly do not pull out a phone and record them because the poor gard is a nice man

seamus

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

The US has exclusionary rules that render unlawfully obtained evidence inadmissible. So if a traffic stop is unlawful everything that comes afterwards is excluded.

The same rules apply here, it's pretty standard.

The main difference is Americans' sense of entitlement about their vehicles, which leads to arguments about what does and doesn't constitute a legal traffic stop.

In Ireland there's not really any argument about this, their ability to randomly pull people over is pretty much universal.

The difference is what they need to do after that. My understanding is that in the US, once the cops have pulled you over they can basically do what they like; carry out a sobriety test, search your car, etc etc.

In Ireland, they can pull you over all they like, but they can't do a search of the vehicle without a valid suspicion and they can't carry out a breathalyser (except at a checkpoint) unless they suspect you've been drinking. This means that even if your breathalyser comes back positive, they can't search the vehicle "just because", where in the US I believe they can.

GM228

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

The US has exclusionary rules that render unlawfully obtained evidence inadmissible. So if a traffic stop is unlawful everything that comes afterwards is excluded.

It is next to impossible to have an unlawful traffic stop, Gardaí have a common law power to stop a vehicle even when there is no suspicion of any crime being committed.

Auguste Comte

fxotoole wrote: »

Surely this would be a massive data protection and/or GDPR breach, and the Gardai would be hammered by the EU if that happened? Or are law enforcement exempt from GDPR?

It happens.

Two Garda brothers and a civil servant mole illegally passed confidential information on to a private detective agency, a court heard today.

Private investigation firm Eamonn O Mordha & Co Ltd and one of it’s directors Ann Moore (61) also known as Ann O Mordha were each fined €10,000 after entering guilty pleas to 12 counts of breaching the Data Protection Act while 25 other charges for the same offence were withdrawn.

The two gardai, who were her nephews, and a civil servant friend who worked in the Department of Social Protection also provided her with private personal information on men and women.

Your details should be treated confidentially but that is not what happens.

It has been claimed some members of An Garda Síochána were using the PULSE computer system "as a social website".

Former Justice Minister Alan Shatter made the claim over inappropriate access to the system by gardaí.

A review carried out following a Garda Inspectorate report in 2014 highlighted systemic failures in recording practices on the garda internal computer system.

While another review carried out by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) into the quality of garda crime data found that 18% of crimes reported to gardaí in 2011 do not appear to have been recorded on the system.

Mr Shatter referenced an incident where a number of gardaí accessed the PULSE system in relation to the arrest of TD Clare Daly in 2013 for suspected drink-driving.

"What isn't generally publicly known is that I raised that issue with the garda authorities and I expressed concern as to how that came about", he told the Pat Kenny Show here on Newstalk.

"I was subsequently advised...that in excess of 150 members of the force had accessed the PULSE system - some of them seem to think it was some sort of social website that they could look up for gossip purposes".

"As I understand it...one of the investigations that GSOC have been engaged in that gave rise to controversy over the last ten days has arisen out of a complaint that Deputy Daly made as to how that information got into the public domain".

"And of course that was also, as I understand it, how some of the background circumstances relevant to the tragic death of a very well-known model, Katy French, also found their way into the public domain".

GM228

seamus wrote: »

In Ireland, they can pull you over all they like, but they can't do a search of the vehicle without a valid suspicion and they can't carry out a breathalyser (except at a checkpoint) unless they suspect you've been drinking. This means that even if your breathalyser comes back positive, they can't search the vehicle "just because", where in the US I believe they can.

They can carry out a breath test if they form an opinion you have committed any offence under any of the 1961 to 2011 Road Traffic Acts or your involved in a collision. Simply not having your licence on you for example is enough to invoke a lawful breath test. MAT checkpoints are the potential problem points for Gardaí if there are issues surrounding the authorisation for such.

RustyNut

fxotoole wrote: »

Surely this would be a massive data protection and/or GDPR breach, and the Gardai would be hammered by the EU if that happened? Or are law enforcement exempt from GDPR?

I don't know if AGS are subject to the same data protection laws that are designed to protect us but breaches certainly occur.

Credit union.

A private investigator has been fined €5,000 after he was convicted of breaking data protection laws by obtaining private personal information held by gardand the ESB.

Judge John O’Neill heard that credit unions hired former garda Michael J Gaynor, now trading as MJG Investigations, from Beatty Grove, Celbridge, Co Kildare, to track down bad debtors. He provided them with “trace reports” to assist them locate debtors for the purpose of initiating legal proceedings.

Fining Gaynor, the judge said: “I can understand how credit unions and financial institutions might need services in tracking down somebody, but enquiries must kept within the law.”

Peintre Celebre

A Garda can ask you whatever he wants up to you whether you want to answer it. In instances he can demand of you and it is an offence to not give it eg road traffic act misuse of drugs act

Alpha_zero

seamus wrote: »

Irrelevant.

If you are walking down the street a Garda can ask for your name and address but you are not generally obliged to provide it.

Different laws empower Gardai to demand a name and address under specific circumstances. From the driver of any vehicle is one of them. If they believe you have committed an offence is another.

However, the latter requires some level of evidence. "You're a young lad and I heard young lads were causing trouble in the park yesterday", is not good enough.

That said, why anyone would ever refuse their name and address is beyond me. You haven't done anything wrong, so don't waste everyone's time because you have some idealised version of yourself as Che Guevara. We don't live in a police state.

If i had no legal requirement to give a cop my name and address when asked i would decline regardless if i had done nothing wrong.

LeoHughes

so can the guards detain you? without arresting you, have they the right to detain a person or do they need to charge/arrest you

RobbieMD

LeoHughes wrote: »

so can the guards detain you? without arresting you, have they the right to detain a person or do they need to charge/arrest you

It all depends on the context.

LeoHughes

RobbieMD wrote: »

It all depends on the context.

same place but its all up in the air now and i'm none the wiser TBH here

Crock Rock

I don't know. I'm not a solicitor, but if you are driving, or after driving or attempting to drive or get into a mechanically propelled vehicle then I suppose they can.

If you are simply walking into one then they can not ask you. If I'm not mistaken, (and I am open to correction) there is only one situaiton where a Garda can stop a pedestrian and search and request information and that situation is the misuse of drugs act.

Brussels Sprout

LeoHughes wrote: »

same place but its all up in the air now and i'm none the wiser TBH here

If you give vague details expect vague responses.

Give a more detailed scenario and you'll get better answers.