Manager deducting drive offs from wages

Kmgirl

I work in a petrol station where people sometimes drive off without paying for petrol or diesel. My manager wants us (the staff) now to start paying for the price of the drive offs through deducting it from our wages.
So if someone fills up their car with 50 euro of diesel and I'm working at that time, 50 euro will be deducted from my wages for that week. Myself and my co-workers are only on minimum wage so would I be right in that money for drive offs can't be taken from our wages because that means we would be payed below minimum wage for the week?. People fill up their cars and then pay in the shop-there is no option to prepay.

WrigleysExtra

Straight up illegal, report him to the wrc.

SteM

Even if you weren't on minimum wage I don't see how he could legally do this. How are you supposed to stop drive offs? You work in a petrol station, the car is outside. Does he expect you to chase after them? Tell him to install a camera and report drive offs to the gardai and stop with his nonsense.

Seth Brundle

Aside from what WrigleysExtra has posted, by what means does the manager expect you to prevent this customer behaviour?
Are you expected to stop the car somehow?
presumably the owner has not implemented a way to prevent this so how can you implement it?
As you're sprinting down the road after the car, are you meant to leave the till behind or bring it with you (so nobody steals from it)?

turdball

Even if you were on 80K a year it's still illegal. Report him if he does actually do it. Might just want ye to take a better look out(Know it's impossible if your serving customers behind the counter)
Might have just been having a bad day

nuac

In the far off days when being a forecourt attendant was an actual job there might have been some justification
Hard to accept a counter assistant to accept responsibility for drive offs

cgcsb

Tell him to not even dream of it if he has any sense at all. If he attempts to do it you'll be getting a lovely payout from him through the courts, much more than he'd get from attempting to steal your money.

Kmgirl

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Aside from what WrigleysExtra has posted, by what means does the manager expect you to prevent this customer behaviour?
Are you expected to stop the car somehow?
presumably the owner has not implemented a way to prevent this so how can you implement it?

He thinks by asking every customer "do you have petrol or diesel" that everyone will it will remind customers to pay. The problem is some people straight out lie. AND some people drive off without even stepping foot in the shop. He said he can look back at the cameras and tell whether we have asked the customer do they have petrol or diesel but there's no sound on the cameras??

trellheim

Wage deductions have to be listed on the payslip otherwise illegal

Deductions from the pay packet

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/25/section/5/enacted/en/html#sec5

in case the deduction is in respect of compensation for loss or damage sustained by the employer as a result of an act or omission of the employee, the deduction is of an amount not exceeding the amount of the loss or the cost of the damage, and

Be well and win

Its not as simple as some people on here are making out. Under the Payment of Wages act, an employer may make a deduction from wages when they have suffered loss through your fault. For example, if you broke something, then legally the employer might be able to deduct the cost from your wages.

However, if the employer wants to do this
It must be stated in your contract of employment that he can do this- your first point should be to check this.
It must be fair and reasonable, in this case your employer is asking you to stop a crime from happening, I would argue that this is not fair and reasonable as he is asking you to physically endanger yourself.
he informs you of the deduction in writing

I would have thought your manager here has a wrong notion as to what he can and cant do.However if your wages are deducted and the above criteria are not met, make a claim via the WRC, forms are available on line

jimmycrackcorm

Be well and win wrote:

However, if the employer wants to do this It must be stated in your contract of employment that he can do this- your first point should be to check this. It must be fair and reasonable, in this case your employer is asking you to stop a crime from happening, I would argue that this is not fair and reasonable as he is asking you to physically endanger yourself. he informs you of the deduction in writing

The onus is on the employer to also ensure that precautions are taken to prevent this.

I. E. The employee cannot prevent outside drive offs and could suggest to the manager that prepayments dhould be taken instead (happens at night)

Kmgirl

Be well and win wrote: »

Its not as simple as some people on here are making out. Under the Payment of Wages act, an employer may make a deduction from wages when they have suffered loss through your fault. For example, if you broke something, then legally the employer might be able to deduct the cost from your wages.

However, if the employer wants to do this
It must be stated in your contract of employment that he can do this- your first point should be to check this.
It must be fair and reasonable, in this case your employer is asking you to stop a crime from happening, I would argue that this is not fair and reasonable as he is asking you to physically endanger yourself.
he informs you of the deduction in writing

I would have thought your manager here has a wrong notion as to what he can and cant do.However if your wages are deducted and the above criteria are not met, make a claim via the WRC, forms are available on line

He hasn't started deducting from wages yet, it's starting next week. Surely drive offs aren't "fair and reasonable". If the person never steps foot inside the shop and fills their car with petrol without paying- it hardly can be considered fair or reasonable/legal to take it from our wages. In the case where the customer comes into the shop but doesn't pay for petrol or diesel, the manager claims he can tell by CCTV whether we asked them if they have petrol or diesel but there's no sound on the cameras. Surely, that isn't legal either because we couldn't physically be heard on camera asking the customer if they had petrol or diesel.

road_high

You’d effectively be working for free at that rate- don’t tolerate this for a second- absolute piss take.

turdball

Kmgirl wrote: »

He thinks by asking every customer "do you have petrol or diesel" that everyone will it will remind customers to pay. The problem is some people straight out lie. AND some people drive off without even stepping foot in the shop. He said he can look back at the cameras and tell whether we have asked the customer do they have petrol or diesel but there's no sound on the cameras??

Sounds like he just wants ye to be on top of your game to be honest. Petty threat.

If he does go through with it report him. If your there under a year I wouldn't confront him.

aido79

Deduct your services from his petrol station and find a new job for him even suggesting this.

Kmgirl

turdball wrote: »

Sounds like he just wants ye to be on top of your game to be honest. Petty threat.

If he does go through with it report him. If your there under a year I wouldn't confront him.

He plans on going through with it as far as I am aware. I was off yesterday and he asked at least one member of staff who is there a relatively short length of time to sign a statement saying drive offs will be deducted from wages. The member of staff voiced his concerns with the manager and said she didn't agree with it but they felt pressurised into signing it. The manager will be asking the rest of us to sign up for this contract/statement too in the coming days.

meathstevie

One can not be held responsible for the crimes of another, not in a week of Sunday's. The employer is trying to make someone else compensate the company for the potential crime of another. Since when has the petrol station manager been appointed a Judge of the District Court since that's the lowest tier of the court system that deals with thefts.

It would be a different story if employee errors or misconduct have caused the loss. There could well be civil or criminal liability issues in such circumstances.

In most petrol stations nowadays the procedure is that the till operator activates the pump when the customer wants to fuel up. If that customer subsequently drives away without paying as they are legally obliged to do is something the employee has no control over.

Zenify

I heard this before from someone working at a station. They had a button to push to release the fuel to the pump. If the car had a plate visible they would push the button. Sometimes they would he busy dealing with other customers and if they pushed it for a car without a plate and it drove off it would be deducted from their wages. Fair enough I think but not a job I would sign myself up for.

refusetolose

dont sign it

turdball

Kmgirl wrote: »

He plans on going through with it as far as I am aware. I was off yesterday and he asked at least one member of staff who is there a relatively short length of time to sign a statement saying drive offs will be deducted from wages. The member of staff voiced his concerns with the manager and said she didn't agree with it but they felt pressurised into signing it. The manager will be asking the rest of us to sign up for this contract/statement too in the coming days.

Okay that's a different story, don't sign it and report him.

gimli2112

Do RTE have a kind of watchdog / consumer affairs type programme? I'm sure they'd love to do a piece on this guy. As said earlier I'd be looking elsewhere for employment, if you agree to this what's next?

TeaBagMania

turn off all the pumps and make everyone pay or leave a deposit first. When the complaints start to roll in give them the managers mobile

Ireland is one of the few countries that actually allow you to fuel before paying, you will never see that in the states

Dakota Dan

TeaBagMania wrote: »

turn off all the pumps and make everyone pay or leave a deposit first. When the complaints start to roll in give them the managers mobile

Ireland is one of the few countries that actually allow you to fuel before paying, you will never see that in the states

Are
I suppose if you are filling your car like I always do it’s impossible to know exactly how much it will take. I thought with cameras that drive offs were a thing of the past.

Nothing surprises me now

Is the station privately owned/leased? If part of a group, contact staff at other stations to discuss this. I worked in petrol station for a number of years when I was younger and there were drive offs but we were never asked to pay. Our manager knew how we couldn't watch everyone and work a till at the same time. I'm sure supermarkets like Tesco, Dunnes don't deduct from staff wages despite the stealing that goes on; they also employ staff to watch potential thieves. I wouldn't sign the form.

shutup

Manager is a prick. This is illegal.
Immediately contact him and make it clear that you will not stand for this. Don’t do anything else before contacting him.
If he tries to fire you in the future you could claim it was over this dispute and would look like an unfair dismissal.

TeaBagMania

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Are
I suppose if you are filling your car like I always do it’s impossible to know exactly how much it will take.

but you have a general idea right?
for example, i know my truck when near empty can hold upwards of $70 worth of fuel so i would leave a deposit of $80 or more with the cashier.
when im finished fueling i walk inside and collect my change.

yeah it sux but thats what society low lifes have done to us

just FYI id say about 99% of peeps here in the states pay at the pump with their CC

vintagecosmos

This was on liveline a while ago I think.

Basically it came down to -

If someone straight up drove off there was no deduction.

If a staff member served a customer and didnt ask "petrol or diesel", then they were deducted.

Kmgirl

vintagecosmos wrote: »

This was on liveline a while ago I think.

Basically it came down to -

If someone straight up drove off there was no deduction.

If a staff member served a customer and didnt ask "petrol or diesel", then they were deducted.

It's very hard to prove with CCTV whether a person asked "Do you have petrol or diesel". Some customers also lie to staff and say they don't have petrol or diesel when it is sometimes found out later that they did have petrol/diesel.

cbreeze

This practice is not confined to petrol stations. People who work as servers in restaurants are deducted if the people they serve slip out before paying.

Poll Dubh

Does he plan on deducting the cost price of the fuel or the full retail price so that he can still make a profit?

The fuel costs him less than half what he is charging dues to taxes and profit margin - https://www.theaa.ie/blog/1159/

Azizur Rahman

I'd refuse to sign. If the boss keeps pressuring you then quit. Then take a case for constructive dismissal. Hit him where it hurts, in the pocket.

Poll Dubh

Kmgirl wrote: »

I
So if someone fills up their car with 50 euro of diesel and I'm working at that time, 50 euro will be deducted from my wages for that week. Myself and my co-workers are only on minimum wage so would I be right in that money for drive offs can't be taken from our wages because that means we would be payed below minimum wage for the week?.

Citizens Information give useful information on minimum wage including the following:

"If you seek your entitlement to the national minimum wage you are protected from victimisation or dismissal. Victimisation is prohibited by the legislation. In addition, if you are dismissed for seeking the national minimum wage, you may bring a claim for unfair dismissal regardless of length of service or number of hours worked per week."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html

rgodard80a

Absolutely illegal for the manager to deduct your wages for this.
If there was proper negligence by the staff even then there should be warnings etc before firing.

Earlier this month I stopped off at a motorway garage, filled up with fuel and went to the cashier. I thought I said the pump number and grabbed a packet of chewing gum. He asked to put in my card, I entered my pin, thought everything was fine and left. I normally don't bother with receipts.

2 days later I notice on my banking phone app that they only charged €1.05 and had a sign saying they prosecute drive-offs.
So I called up the station, I know the pump number and approximate time, they asked if I drove a certain car make & model, I said yes and I paid over the phone. All done. He sent me a photo of the paid receipt by e-mail. He said sometimes it's the staff's fault.

In fairness, it would've been the staff's responsibility to ask everyone if they got fuel too, or enter the pump number properly in the till if it only said €1.05.

A day or two later a Garda from a nearby station rang me about it because the manager had failed to update them that I had proactively saw the mistake and paid.
They were happy I could resolve it immediately by forwarded on the e-mail of the scanned receipt from the manager, proving I paid, and they closed it at their end.

My point is, yes staff have a certain responsibility, but not financial.
Any drive-offs should be recorded on the garages CC TV system and reported to the guards, who will then contact the registered owner.

If you were a member of a trade union, they'd put your manager in their place fairly fast.

Garibaldi?

TeaBagMania wrote: »

but you have a general idea right?
for example, i know my truck when near empty can hold upwards of $70 worth of fuel so i would leave a deposit of $80 or more with the cashier.
when im finished fueling i walk inside and collect my change.

yeah it sux but thats what society low lifes have done to us

just FYI id say about 99% of peeps here in the states pay at the pump with their CC

This is the right idea. Sometimes when you fill up you see a pay-before notice on a pump.Never did that, but it would certainly solve the problem. Pay first, then fetch your change. A bit of extra work involved for staff but much better than working under the fear of deductions!

L1011

Poll Dubh wrote: »

Does he plan on deducting the cost price of the fuel or the full retail price so that he can still make a profit?

The fuel costs him less than half what he is charging dues to taxes and profit margin - https://www.theaa.ie/blog/1159/

Fairly certain the duty, carbon taxation and NORA levy have to be paid regardless. Only the VAT would be gone in this situation


Pay at pump is problematic here due to how slow banks are at releasing holds on debit cards - most hold 80 and someone who does small refills could find 160 or 240 held by the time they first hold drops

Mr. Incognito

Talk to the owner and tell him of the managers bright Idea and tell him its illegal.

road_high

This very topic was on Joe Duffy over the summer.

road_high

OmegaGene wrote: »

You fuel before paying in the UK
This came up on corks red fm recently where someone went in and did shopping and then forgot to declare the fuel, the guards were at the door later that day telling the person to pop back and pay, after that a few more people had a similar story.
Surely the drive offs that the manager is talking about is where there are no visible number plates ? If not I would be telling him to feck right off.

I’d say we’ll head that way too- pre paying for fuel. It’s a cultural honesty thing but it’s probably too liberal in the dishonest times we now live in

TeaBagMania

L1011 wrote: »

Pay at pump is problematic here due to how slow banks are at releasing holds on debit cards - most hold 80 and someone who does small refills could find 160 or 240 held by the time they first hold drops

I would suggest no one ever use a debit card but rather a credit card then repay from your checking account

Debit Card = my money

Credit Card = the banks money. so who cares how long the holds last or if you loose your card. doesn't effect me or my personal finances

OldMrBrennan83

TeaBagMania wrote: »

I would suggest no one ever use a debit card but rather a credit card then repay from your checking account

Debit Card = my money

Credit Card = the banks money. so who cares how long the holds last or if you loose your card. doesn't effect me or my personal finances

A lot of people don't want to have a credit card.

Pay at pump is the way forward in so many ways. I only use them now, it's great not having to park or push your way through crowds in a shop.

L1011

TeaBagMania wrote: »

I would suggest no one ever use a debit card but rather a credit card then repay from your checking account

Debit Card = my money

Credit Card = the banks money. so who cares how long the holds last or if you loose your card. doesn't effect me or my personal finances

Oh, I agree 100% but people here use debit cards as if they were credit cards all the time - countless threads in Consumer of issues caused by holds. At least we do have chargebacks on debit cards here which other countries do not.

realitykeeper

He is probably bluffing to keep you on your toes. On the minimum wage, I don`t agree with it but you are not responsible for other people stealing.

GM228

It has been stated several times by several posters that what the manager proposes is illegal, however, the OP has confirmed that the manager has asked the employees to agree to this.

To be clear what he has proposed is not illegal, it is not forbid by the Payment of Wages Act 1991, even if your already at the minimum wage, and once agreed to by the employees weather in writing or verbally such a deduction is perfectly legal.

At best it is immoral, but not illegal.

OldMrBrennan83

GM228 wrote: »

It has been stated several times by several posters that what the manager proposes is illegal, however, the OP has confirmed that the manager has asked the employees to agree to this.

To be clear what he has proposed is not illegal, it is not forbid by the Payment of Wages Act 1991, even if your already at the minimum wage, and once agreed to by the employees weather in writing or verbally such a deduction is perfectly legal.

At best it is immoral, but not illegal.

Anyone who agrees to it deserves all they get in fairness. Too many of these boors are let away with far too much.

ezra_

GM228 wrote: »

It has been stated several times by several posters that what the manager proposes is illegal, however, the OP has confirmed that the manager has asked the employees to agree to this.

To be clear what he has proposed is not illegal, it is not forbid by the Payment of Wages Act 1991, even if your already at the minimum wage, and once agreed to by the employees weather in writing or verbally such a deduction is perfectly legal.

At best it is immoral, but not illegal.

How come it is now possible to contract out of statute?

GM228

Patww79 wrote: »

Anyone who agrees to it deserves all they get in fairness. Too many of these boors are let away with far too much.

Agreed, but it is rife in the food and hospitality industry under their employment contracts.

GM228

ezra_ wrote: »

How come it is now possible to contract out of statute?

What part of statute is being contracted out of? Statute is subject to contracts.

laotg

So I take it that if he is planning on deducting drive offs from employees then he won't also be claiming off his insurance ?

killanena

If a customer comes up to the tills and doesn't declare he has fuel and cashier doesn't ask him its not a "drive off".

Drive offs are when a customer never come up to the till. And leave without paying. Depending on your contract, your employer could legally deduct your wages the amount if the customer was served at tills. Its not a nice practice but you see it in most privately owed or franchise petrol stations.

I'm an assistant manager in a petrol station but thankfully our company doesn't practice this. Instead retrains or if repeat issue, disciplines employees.

I've seen cashiers pay for transactions they forgot to ask customer for to avoid getting in trouble but this actually gets you in more trouble in my particular company if found out.

First thing we train new staff is by saying at the start of every transaction, (even if there is no fuel dispensed at the time) is to start every transaction asking if they have "Any petrol or diesel today?"

Of course it does happen from time to time where the cashier does ask and the customer wrongfully says no. In these cases we ask if other staff heard the cashier ask this, also recommending pointing at the forecourt when saying this as a visual demonstration so CCTV can prove that cashier asked, failing this it will be put to they're record and if its generally clean we will believe them.

ezra_

GM228 wrote: »

What part of statute is being contracted out of? Statute is subject to contracts.

Minimum wage is subject to contract?

GM228

ezra_ wrote: »

Minimum wage is subject to contract?

Minimum wage is subject to deductions made under the 1991 Act and those payments are subject to contract.

Don't forget minimum wage applies to your hourly rate, not any deductions permitted by law.