Best of all time

magic_murph

I know it’s a marketing tool but do you think ‘the best of all time’ gets banded around a bit too much by the UFC
Aldo – unbeaten in 10yrs, considered the greatest then McGregor beats him in 13 seconds. Aldo no longer considered the best ever.
Hard to call somebody the best ever when they have just got beat but over a career Aldo’s records of 10 yrs unbeaten is more impressive than the handful of wins McGregor as had

Cyborg V Nunes
Cyborg the best ever female fighter then gets mauled by Nunes so is no longer considered the greatest.

I guess these two are poor examples as both fights were over so quick but do think if both matches were done 10 times each the results would favor both Aldo & cyborg

I just think the greatest ever handle is easily exchanged where it shouldn’t be

callaway92

It's the same in every sport

finglashoop

Aldo was the best at his weight for a time but factor in age, skills diminishing , while a new crop came along and have evolved past him. That doesn't dismiss his career record but it puts in doubt the best ever tag. Remember that max beat him twice.

Same for Cyborg, she could ko anyone, until she couldnt and nunes smashed her. 9 out of 10 id take nunes.

To be the man you have to beat the man as ric flair said. If aldo was best ever and mcregor
Beats him in one exchange, is he still he still best ever?

dashoonage

Artem

/thread

maybe Pendred if we need to discuss it a little.

xtal191

dashoonage wrote: »

Artem

/thread

maybe Pendred if we need to discuss it a little.

Oh Artem vs Pendred the fight I never knew I wanted to see

dashoonage

xtal191 wrote: »

Oh Artem vs Pendred the fight I never knew I wanted to see

at 170lbs.

MrStuffins

This is a massive peeve of mine. I have no dea why everyone has to be "The Greatest of all Time".

There are two reasons this is so prevalent:

1) Too many titles & interim titles. There are so many people claiming to be the best and claiming to be the champ etc that the lustre of holding the belt has seriously diminished.

2) Joe Rogan. He just loves it!

riffmongous

We all know it's Fedor anyway

gzoladz

What the GOAT analysy is missing is the time dimension...all fighters performance diminishes with time, so the comparison should be for example fighter A 2012 to 2016 or fighter B 2007 to 2010.

KJ

Max Holloway was called the best ever by Joe Rogan after his last fight. Ridiculous statement.

dulux99

I do think skill levels are increasing exponentially these days. You'd forget sometimes how new this sport is. With the (somewhat) level playing field of drug testing the way it is now, I think pretty much the only champion from 10 years ago who'd beat today's champion is GSP.

gerrybbadd

The sport is so young really, its very hard to call. Like, years ago, someone like a Chuck Liddell might have been in with a shout. But as someone has already said, its like with each new crop of competitiors coming through, their skills are more rounded and developed.

I don't think a lot of the early UFC guys, who were considered cream of the crop, would hang too well in today's sport.

Exception of GSP as already mentioned

magic_murph

Agreed - Matt Hughes was very effective but put up against some of the more high level strikers around today I think he would be shown up.

It is very frustrating that a fighter is the best ever and with one loss they lose that title.

Phil Taylor in the darts is considered the best ever - even when he loses a few matches he is still heralds as the best.

I guess it's more just the marketing machine behind the UFC pushing the next up and comer as potentially the GOAT.
I think the GOAT's are allowed a couple of defeats on their record without losing the title.

If Cyborg comes back and betters nunes she will immediately be crowded the best ever again (and possibly rightly so)

dulux99

magic_murph wrote: »

Agreed - Matt Hughes was very effective but put up against some of the more high level strikers around today I think he would be shown up.

It is very frustrating that a fighter is the best ever and with one loss they lose that title.

Phil Taylor in the darts is considered the best ever - even when he loses a few matches he is still heralds as the best.

o)

The way I look at that, is would Phil Taylor at his absolute best beat MVG at his absolute best? Im no darting expert but it'd at least be very very close.

I don't think the same can be said for the previous era of UFC champions vs the current, especially with the stringent drug testing. Silva was amazing in his day but he was probably juiced to the tits the whole time.

MartyMcFly84

Its difficult in a sport like MMA which is relatively new.

Many of the best fighters from 10 years ago, would struggle in the top 15 today.

Not only has the sport and techniques evolved but so have the athletes taking part. Many more naturally gifted athletes are involved in MMA and starting to train at a much younger age.

"Greatest of all time"It's a very subjective statement , you can only really compare fighters to other fighters during the same time period.

The likes of Boxing, Muay Thai is a little more directly comparable as they are older sports, but the modern training techniques and athletes involved would have changed also but not to the same degree as MMA which is night and day when you compare like of Tank Abbot and Jon Jones.

dulux99

Joe Rogan definitely throws around the "GOAT" phrase very liberally. Does peak Jose Aldo beat peak Holloway? I think he might.

turdball

Aldo is like Rousey, just can't cut it with the new crop of stars.

McGregor might be the best ever in the 145 pound division.

As a lightweight wouldn't be in the top 20 in that division

derfderf

turdball wrote: »

As a lightweight wouldn't be in the top 20 in that division

Bulls**t

turdball

derfderf wrote: »

Bulls**t

I'm talking about all time. No where near.

Got embarrassed by Khabib.

TerrorFirmer

turdball wrote: »

I'm talking about all time. No where near.

Got embarrassed by Khabib.

Gets beaten in RD4 by one of the best wrestlers the UFC has ever seen.

No longer in top #20.

OK.

Scotty #

Most wins? Fewest loses? Win:Loss ratio? Most title defences? Ranking of opponent? There's so many factors to take into account. GSP is regarded as #1 on most lists, Anderson Silva on others. It's impossible to give a definitive answer. At the end of the day, people will select their favourite.

Gonad

Suprised not one mention of Jon Jones

But he is a known cheater so suppose he is out of the equation . Looking back I think all those ufc champions were on steroids.

Aldo was like a machine until USADA and then all of a sudden looked human.

Jon Jones came back against OSP in his first first during USADA and he looked terrible .

I believe AKA fighters are juicing still and even their own coach Javier Mendes came out and said that USADA should just go away as fighters are still juicing and that they can get the stuff out of their systems over night .

Wouldn’t be surprised if Cormier was on something he comes across about strange when slagging Jon Jones and says things like “I have never been popped Jon” rather than saying he never took steroids .

If you don’t care about steroids the best would be Jones Jones , Silva , Fedor ect

If it was a completely clean sport it would be a completely different list of fighters

derfderf

turdball wrote: »

I'm talking about all time. No where near.

Got embarrassed by Khabib.

Name 10 outside Khabib

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

Name 10 outside Khabib

Why stop at 10? He reckons there's 20 :pac:


FWIW there have been 10 LW champions up to and including Khabib.

rob316

Its the same as every sport. Sky Sports, UFC they all hype up their products to dizzy heights. Every UFC event is the biggest fight in history, Joe Rogan especially uses this phrase way too much.

xckjoo

turdball wrote: »

Aldo is like Rousey, just can't cut it with the new crop of stars.

lol. Should have held off a few weeks before coming to that conclusion


GOAT talk is just an excuse to argue about favorite fighters. It's in every sport though. "Messi is good, but he's not a patch on Jimmy Two Toes who played centre forward for United in ninteen-dikity-two. He had to hold down a day job as a bin man and smoked 60 a day. Got paid a bag of coal a week"

MrStuffins

xckjoo wrote: »

lol. Should have held off a few weeks before coming to that conclusion

This is almost the other side of the coin to the "The Best Ever" thing.

As soon as someone drops a fight, he's passed it!

Much like there not being a need for everyone to be "The Best Ever" when they're champ, there's also no need for anyone to be passed it. Sometimes it just happens that a fighter surpasses you like Holloway did Aldo.

Mellor

"xckjoo wrote: »

GOAT talk is just an excuse to argue about favorite fighters. It's in every sport though. "Messi is good, but he's not a patch on Jimmy Two Toes who played centre forward for United in ninteen-dikity-two. He had to hold down a day job as a bin man and smoked 60 a day. Got paid a bag of coal a week"

The difference is the skillset is improving in MMA at such an obvious rate, that nobody suggests that. (It's improving in soccer too, but less obviously).
Royce demolished everyone in early UFCs. But he would struggle against top 10 now, let alone championship tier.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

The difference is the skillset is improving in MMA at such an obvious rate, that nobody suggests that. (It's improving in soccer too, but less obviously).
Royce demolished everyone in early UFCs. But he would struggle against top 10 now, let alone championship tier.

Prime Silva or GSP wouldn't look out of place at the top of their divisions these days, but I think most other Champions comfortably maul the the early day champions.

JJayoo

Cormier with abs at 185 = Goat

Fall_Guy

Much as it pains me to say it, I just can't see past Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion, I don't think his body of work can be equalled by any of the other contenders to the title at this point.

dulux99

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Much as it pains me to say it, I just can't see past Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion, I don't think his body of work can be equalled by any of the other contenders to the title at this point.

How though, given his repeated drug failures? Michelle Smith isn't considered a great Irish athlete because her drug failures. So many asterisks over Jon Jones career. Same with Anderson Silva for me.

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

Given body of work and accomplishments it has to be GSP imo.

Fall_Guy

dulux99 wrote: »

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Much as it pains me to say it, I just can't see past Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion, I don't think his body of work can be equalled by any of the other contenders to the title at this point.

How though, given his repeated drug failures? Michelle Smith isn't considered a great Irish athlete because her drug failures. So many asterisks over Jon Jones career. Same with Anderson Silva for me.

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

Given body of work and accomplishments it has to be GSP imo.

If Jones is a drugs cheat, I don't think the Armstrong comparison is a fair one as cycling is almost completely a battle of endurance and will.

The benefits of PEDs in MMA are less clear-cut, and PEDs are not what separated Jon Jones from every man he stepped in the cage with. He may be a drugs cheat, he may just be as careless and idiotic as his drinking and recreational drug taking in the lead up to fights in the past suggests, and paid little or no attention to the supplements he was putting into his body.

Either way, I think the names he has beaten and the way he has beaten them is far more impressive than GSP's notable victories.

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

Prime Silva or GSP wouldn't look out of place at the top of their divisions these days, but I think most other Champions comfortably maul the the early day champions.

Silva, GSP and Aldo still belong in the top 3 discussion of each division. They aren't "current generation" but it's notable that all 3 are still potentially fighting. They bridge the two generations.

dulux99 wrote: »

Do people who are into cycling consider Lance Armstrong to be the best ever?

They probably should tbh. I don't think he got particular special treatment.

Ultimate Seduction

I hate the best ever hype myself but every fighter that's champ right now probably is the best ever.

Theres a strong argument for Goat talk with all of

Cromier, Jones, woodley, khabib, max, dillashaw , Nunez.

Last year Stipe, Cruz, Cyborg, Joanna were the goats. Such a new sport improving so fast.

evil_seed

MMA is still in it's infancy to call anyone a goat IMO. There's been era's where there's been undeniably great fighters. Pride Era - Fedor, Hendo; Early UFC ERA (just bleed!) - Randy, BJ, Hughes; Modern Era (multiple defences) - Silva, Stipe, DJ, Rousey, Aldo, GSP.
You could class any of these people as the GOAT, but it depends on what the criteria is. Game changer? Titles: number of defences/different weight classes? number of fights? Number of KO's? number of submissions? Number of wins? How many events they've headlined?
It's too difficult at this stage to pick just one IMO

magic_murph

evil_seed wrote: »

MMA is still in it's infancy to call anyone a goat IMO. There's been era's where there's been undeniably great fighters. Pride Era - Fedor, Hendo; Early UFC ERA (just bleed!) - Randy, BJ, Hughes; Modern Era (multiple defences) - Silva, Stipe, DJ, Rousey, Aldo, GSP.
You could class any of these people as the GOAT, but it depends on what the criteria is. Game changer? Titles: number of defences/different weight classes? number of fights? Number of KO's? number of submissions? Number of wins? How many events they've headlined?
It's too difficult at this stage to pick just one IMO

Rousey.....she may have a great record but I wouldn't call her a great fighter. A very good one trick pony for sure but not a great fighter

Mellor

Any suggestion that Ronda is the goat is pretty easily cast aside.

evil_seed

magic_murph wrote: »

Rousey.....she may have a great record but I wouldn't call her a great fighter. A very good one trick pony for sure but not a great fighter

Mellor wrote: »

Any suggestion that Ronda is the goat is pretty easily cast aside.

In terms of WMMA she's in the discussion, but WMMA is even more in it's infancy in terms of being mainstream. But again I say, what's the criteria for GOAT?

xckjoo

evil_seed wrote: »

In terms of WMMA she's in the discussion, but WMMA is even more in it's infancy in terms of being mainstream. But again I say, what's the criteria for GOAT?

Whatever criteria fits the fighter you want to argue for at any given time!

yourdeadwright

Impossible to call in MMA as the new breed of fighters are always going to be better than the old due to earlier cross training ,

Sport is so so young most of the people who get the goat tag aren't the best but the pioneers of the sport, Feder , NOG, Hughes, Bj Penn ,Silva, all get murdered by todays top 5 guys in there divisions

GSP may be the only " old Skooler" who would still top of his division

derfderf

I don't know why people use number of title defenses as an indicator. Compare DJ to Tony Ferguson.
DJ wins the belt on his third fight at flyweight, and defends 11 times.
Tony is on an 11 fight winning streak without a title shot.
DJ is always brought up in the goat discussion, but who had the tougher opponents? If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?
Even look at Silva. I definitely think he's part of the discussion, but he got his title shot in his second fight. Much easier to rack up defenses if you have the belt before you clean out the division.

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

I don't know why people use number of title defenses as an indicator. Compare DJ to Tony Ferguson.
DJ wins the belt on his third fight at flyweight, and defends 11 times.
Tony is on an 11 fight winning streak without a title shot.
DJ is always brought up in the goat discussion, but who had the tougher opponents? If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?
Even look at Silva. I definitely think he's part of the discussion, but he got his title shot in his second fight. Much easier to rack up defenses if you have the belt before you clean out the division.

if Tony won the belt in his third fight he would have been fighting much tougher opponents than the likes of Lando Vannata.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

if Tony won the belt in his third fight he would have been fighting much tougher opponents than the likes of Lando Vannata.

He's fought everyone he could have fought outside of Conor and Khabib, and they're not from lack of trying. RDA, Barboza, Lee, and Pettis, is as tough of a row as you can get, champion or not.
I'm not saying Tony's the goat, but those four are more impressive wins than anyone DJ's fought.

Mellor

3 out of those are his last 3 fights. The streak is 11 fights. I'm not saying those wins aren't great. I'm saying the early fights aren't near that level. You asked:

If Tony won the belt at the start of his streak is it suddenly more impressive?

I'm pointing out if he was champ his other 7 fights would been very different. And much tougher.

derfderf

Mellor wrote: »

3 out of those are his last 3 fights. The streak is 11 fights. I'm not saying those wins aren't great. I'm saying the early fights aren't near that level. You asked:


I'm pointing out if he was champ his other 7 fights would been very different. And much tougher.

Who would he have fought that he hasn't fought?

The Nal

finglashoop wrote: »

Aldo was the best at his weight for a time but factor in age, skills diminishing

And USADA

ziggyman17

Mellor

derfderf wrote: »

Who would he have fought that he hasn't fought?

Over the course of Tony's streak, 6 fighters have challenged for the LW belt. Melendez, RDA, Cerrone, Alvarez, Conor, Khabib. Assuming they all still challenge if Tony was champ. Then the rest from the other top LWs.
Poirier, Gaethje, Nate, Lee, Iaquinta, Barboza, Pettis.

That's 13 fighters, so he couldn't fight them all. But any 11 you pick out would be a significantly tougher run than. Mike Rio, Lando, Castillo.

mailburner

turdball wrote: »

Aldo is like Rousey, just can't cut it with the new crop of stars.

Who are these new crop of stars?
He's beaten half of the current top ten which leaves swanson, bektic volkanovski emmet...only volkanovski would test him from that lot

He's the second best fw in the world right now imo even if ortega is ranked higher, ortega wouldn't sub aldo and his stand up is far inferior

Flyingsnowball

I recently watched the first few ufc things. Ufc1 I, 2and 3 I suppose.

The kickboxer wearing one glove cracked me up. My god how much it’s changed.
Just for ****s and giggles I’d love to see the original Gracie and khabib wrestle.