Minimum spend of €10 in order to use debit card @ The Academy?

mrcheez

I was at The Academy venue in Dublin recently and when I went to pay €6.70 for my drink with my debit card I was told:

"Minimum order has to be €10 in order to use a debit card"

Is this a common practice, or even legal?

kunst nugget

mrcheez wrote: »

I was at The Academy venue in Dublin recently and when I went to pay €6.70 for my drink with my debit card I was told:

"Minimum order has to be €10 in order to use a debit card"

Is this a common practice, or even legal?

It's very common in petrol stations to see signs at the counter about ten Euro minimum spend with debit cards. Don't think I've heard of it in a pub before.

maximoose

It's common enough sadly, but I see it less and less these days.

Legal as far as I know, they made it illegal to add a surcharge to card payments but there's no laws stopping places doing this. I read it is against the terms of service for VISA and Mastercard though, but it's probably a lot of effort for little reward to report places!

Edit: actually here you go, you can report it to mastercard here

mrcheez

maximoose wrote: »

It's common enough sadly, but I see it less and less these days.

Legal as far as I know, they made it illegal to add a surcharge to card payments but there's no laws stopping places doing this. I read it is against the terms of service for VISA and Mastercard though, but it's probably a lot of effort for little reward to report places!

Edit: actually here you go, you can report it to mastercard here

handy thanks

ED E

Mastercard/Visa aren't responsible here, its the likes of BOI who provide the merchant service to retailers that set the rules AFAIK.

Shops that do this I walk out never to return. Contactless is the norm, accept it or shutter.

mrcheez

ED E wrote: »

Mastercard/Visa aren't responsible here, its the likes of BOI who provide the merchant service to retailers that set the rules AFAIK.

Shops that do this I walk out never to return. Contactless is the norm, accept it or shutter.

curious though.. the Mastercard form posted earlier specifically lists as a reportable offence:

"In order to make a Debit Mastercard or Mastercard prepaid purchase, the merchant/retailer required a minimum or maximum amount."


So it seems to be something they frown on and perhaps might have some effect.

BobMc

I'm a small family business, recently switched terminal providers, its against their T&C's to set minimum spends
dont know how you report it though. I understand it from years ago charges where much higher but its less now and
less again for contactless debits.

mrcheez

The price of their drinks was in excess of the norm as well, so I doubt they'd be losing out much if they had to pay 1% fee or whatever it is.

A lot of people ordering drinks were similarly confused by the min spend rule, so I'm assuming other venues like Whelans or Olympia don't do this?

maximoose

Olympia and Vicar St definitely don't, have been in there recently

Dial Hard

kunst nugget wrote: »

It's very common in petrol stations to see signs at the counter about ten Euro minimum spend with debit cards. Don't think I've heard of it in a pub before.

It's €20 in the Poitin Stil!

cavemeister

I dropped into a bar in Douglas, Cork for a pint a few weeks ago while the other half was having a spa treatment. Ordered a pint - €5.50 or thereabouts.

Handed over my debit card and the barman said minimum was €10 per transaction.

I put my card back into my wallet and walked out leaving the freshly poured pint on the bar counter. It was during the day so the pub was pretty quiet.

Went into another bar across the road who had no minimum for purchases and enjoyed a pint there.

If everyone did this, pubs and shops would soon drop this stupid self inflicted rule.

Bigmac1euro

A particular pub in Blanchardstown has a 30 euro minimum spend. So obviously they don’t like contactless but this has to be illegal!
It boils my blood as it’s expensive enough as it is. Paid less in a hotel for a bottle of wine at the weekend.

redcup342

cavemeister wrote: »

I dropped into a bar in Douglas, Cork for a pint a few weeks ago while the other half was having a spa treatment. Ordered a pint - €5.50 or thereabouts.

Handed over my debit card and the barman said minimum was €10 per transaction.

I put my card back into my wallet and walked out leaving the freshly poured pint on the bar counter. It was during the day so the pub was pretty quiet.

Went into another bar across the road who had no minimum for purchases and enjoyed a pint there.

If everyone did this, pubs and shops would soon drop this stupid self inflicted rule.

What an <SNIP> ... wouldn't you just ask if they take card first, f*ck sake I don't whip out the AMEX then get pissed and walk off when they don't take it.

It's not like you have to take card payment, Cash is the only legal tender.

maximoose

Card machines are usually in plain sight. Shouldn't have to ask if the bar are stingey cûnts and enforcing a minimum spend.

cavemeister

redcup342 wrote: »

What an <SNIP> ... wouldn't you just ask if they take card first, f*ck sake I don't whip out the AMEX then get pissed and walk off when they don't take it.

It's not like you have to take card payment, Cash is the only legal tender.

VISA sign on the door to the pub. No mention of minimum spend.
Also, don't be a d!ck. It's not my fault if a pub has a Visa debit facility but refuses to use it.

BobMc

Try paying cash for a beer in one of JFKs Airport terminals, felt a right tit with a $10 bill in my hand

BeardySi

BobMc wrote: »

Try paying cash for a beer in one of JFKs Airport terminals, felt a right tit with a $10 bill in my hand

Easily the most expensive bottle of beer I've ever bought was at JFK...

oLoonatic

its the merchant (bank) you can make a complaint to. I had a couple of euro left in my account before pay day and dropped in with my son to a local centra to buy him a packet of sweets. total was 3 euro or there abouts. My child had already opened the sweets when the guy in the till wouldn't accept the card. I handed him back the half chewed sweets and walked out. Disgraceful that companies still do this / get away with it.

mrcheez

BeardySi wrote: »

Easily the most expensive bottle of beer I've ever bought was at JFK...

try Dubai Airport. Glass of Heineken was €16 or something.

mrcheez

oLoonatic wrote: »

its the merchant (bank) you can make a complaint to. I had a couple of euro left in my account before pay day and dropped in with my son to a local centra to buy him a packet of sweets. total was 3 euro or there abouts. My child had already opened the sweets when the guy in the till wouldn't accept the card. I handed him back the half chewed sweets and walked out. Disgraceful that companies still do this / get away with it.

I submitted the report to Mastercard.. will be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

Might shoot The Academy a mail too.

redcup342

maximoose wrote: »

Card machines are usually in plain sight. Shouldn't have to ask if the bar are stingey cûnts and enforcing a minimum spend.

cavemeister wrote: »

VISA sign on the door to the pub. No mention of minimum spend.
Also, don't be a d!ck. It's not my fault if a pub has a Visa debit facility but refuses to use it.

It's not always because the bar is stingy, it's also because people buying drinks with Touch payments use up their pin free transactions quickly when paying for a pints and then hold up the whole bar when the barman has to explain to a drunk person that the transaction didn't go through because they can only use a certain amount of touch payments per day.

Then you have them arguing with you saying they are going to check their online banking and to wait before they will put in a pin, all the while other customers are waiting.

It's easier just to enforce a minimum spend then you don't have any complications.

Ordering something like a drink and then walking off because they don't let you pay by Card is a bit ridiculous, some places would just take it out of the persons wages.

Just ask if you can pay by card first then they can tell you if there is a minimum spend and go elsewhere.

tronicrage

Where can you report this to? Happened me in a shop last week

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

tronicrage wrote: »

Where can you report this to? Happened me in a shop last week

Link in post #3 above.

ACADasltiv

Dial Hard wrote: »

It's €20 in the Poitin Stil!

To fair at least they have an ATM just inside the door so it's not a huge inconvenience.

dudara

@redcup - watch the language please, and be civil to other users.

dudara

thereality

redcup342 wrote: »

It's not always because the bar is stingy, it's also because people buying drinks with Touch payments use up their pin free transactions quickly when paying for a pints and then hold up the whole bar when the barman has to explain to a drunk person that the transaction didn't go through because they can only use a certain amount of touch payments per day.

It takes about €30 of spending to make a pin be required. A contactless payment is quicker than cash

redcup342 wrote: »

Then you have them arguing with you saying they are going to check their online banking and to wait before they will put in a pin, all the while other customers are waiting.

I have never seen this at all. I worked in a shop and one year working at the till I had once had someone checking their online balance in front of me.

redcup342 wrote: »

It's easier just to enforce a minimum spend then you don't have any complications.

Do you realise that the minimum spend does not address any of these issues? In fact having no minimum spend results in zero complications.

redcup342 wrote: »

Ordering something like a drink and then walking off because they don't let you pay by Card is a bit ridiculous, some places would just take it out of the persons wages.

What should the guy have done? Went looking for an ATM, spend time going to it, queue at the ATM and then pay for semi-warm drink sitting on a counter for 5- 20mins?

Do shops take shoplifting out of employees wages?

redcup342 wrote: »

Just ask if you can pay by card first then they can tell you if there is a minimum spend and go elsewhere.

In 2019, paying by card should be as easy as cash. Most shops are required to have zero minimum spend. Why should customers have to clarify, if a store is breaking the terms of merchant card services?

Xterminator

The customer is not to blame for the retailers woes. Quite simply it is a reasonable expectation that contactless be readily available at a respectable retailer.

Some establishments were known for not giving correct change or overcharging the noticeably drunk customers. also my barman friend told that when the received fake notes the owner would recirculate them so he didn't take the hit. so i don't wonder that disreputable establishments don't like the fully recorded transactions that can be examined in the cold light of day! Your not going to be able to hide those payments from the taxman either!

i agree with the sentiment that you vote with your feet. and leaving a pint on the counter is simply putting the point across. If it happens a dozen time a week the bar will soon change its policies.

listermint

redcup342 wrote: »

It's not always because the bar is stingy, it's also because people buying drinks with Touch payments use up their pin free transactions quickly when paying for a pints and then hold up the whole bar when the barman has to explain to a drunk person that the transaction didn't go through because they can only use a certain amount of touch payments per day.

Then you have them arguing with you saying they are going to check their online banking and to wait before they will put in a pin, all the while other customers are waiting.

It's easier just to enforce a minimum spend then you don't have any complications.

Ordering something like a drink and then walking off because they don't let you pay by Card is a bit ridiculous, some places would just take it out of the persons wages.

Just ask if you can pay by card first then they can tell you if there is a minimum spend and go elsewhere.

thats an edge case and not common.

Tap payments cost the business less time and money. Its idiotic to not accept them.

They are quick and there is less cash on the premises. There really isnt a defence for it in this day and age. The only real defence is the owner or the manager or both are idiots and dont actually understand technology or time management.....

Simples.

tomwaits48

why would it be illegal?

mrcheez

Curious, what are the charges to a merchant for using tap-pay ?

Is it a percentage of the cost of the item, or an annual charge?

thereality

tomwaits48 wrote: »

why would it be illegal?

It is not illegal. But the banks don't like companies having this policy. Visa and Mastercard want people to use their cards for everything. They don't want some shops restricting card usage here and there.

What is better a world where you can use your card without fear of retailers making up there own rules or a world where you can pay for a can of coke without the retailer losing it.

swampy353

If anyone has a cc receipt from the venue it will say who the merchant service provider is. Just Google the terms for the merchant service and you'll be able to get the full t&c's that they have signed up to.
I know aib ms, specifies that you can't enforce a minimum spend. It's also another point of complaint, if a merchant is found to be taking the piss, they can have there ability to process cards revoked. Not something any retailer can afford these days

Elavon t&c's https://www.elavon.ie/content/dam/elavon/en_IE/Documents/2018/compliance/elavon_tos_roi_03_2018.pdf
Aibms https://www.aibms.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/AIBMS-Terms-and-Conditions-ROI-Merchants-2018-Version_GDPR.pdf
BOI payment acceptance t&c's don't seem to be publicly available

mrcheez

That's another thing. The Academy weren't giving out receipts

Think they had no paper!

I paid using Revolut and it's listed as The Academy of Photography?!?

the heathen

Like many, I'm almost entirely cashless these days - rarely carry cash. There's a Centra close to where I work in Drogheda that has a 5 euro minimum spend policy. They do have a cash machine in store but as often as not it's only stocked with 50 euro notes which is a pain in the backside when you're just buying a €3.50 sandwich.

It's the only place in Drogheda that I can think of with this policy. I'd be happy enough if they passed on whatever charge they incur to me but I presume that's not legal?

mrcheez

From what I read the charge is 1% for a debit card. Pretty tiny.

bigpink

BobMc wrote: »

Try paying cash for a beer in one of JFKs Airport terminals, felt a right tit with a $10 bill in my hand

Thought the American bar staff would be happier with cash cause of tips?

worded

ED E wrote: »

Mastercard/Visa aren't responsible here, its the likes of BOI who provide the merchant service to retailers that set the rules AFAIK.

Shops that do this I walk out never to return. Contactless is the norm, accept it or shutter.

I know a new coffee shop struggling to survive as they are getting charged 35 cent per transaction.
That’s a huge % of a coffee sale

You are giving a billion dollar corporate bank a huge % of profits from small businesses

Sure costa etc can afford it but your stance will help make it difficult for small businesses to survive

Do you just want franchises everywhere that can absorb the hit you are imposing on them ?

For me I want to help small business and I’m anti bank. They world wide shaft everyone (remember angle irish etc that nearly bank rupted the country) and you want to help them because it’s so convenient to have a card on you ?

worded

bigpink wrote: »

Thought the American bar staff would be happier with cash cause of tips?

I’d imagine tips are way down with card use

Sleeper12

steo_magra wrote:

A particular pub in Blanchardstown has a 30 euro minimum spend. So obviously they don’t like contactless but this has to be illegal! It boils my blood as it’s expensive enough as it is. Paid less in a hotel for a bottle of wine at the weekend.

Why would it be illegal?

There is no legal obligation for them to accept a card at all.

Cash is still king

Sleeper12

oLoonatic wrote:

its the merchant (bank) you can make a complaint to. I had a couple of euro left in my account before pay day and dropped in with my son to a local centra to buy him a packet of sweets. total was 3 euro or there abouts. My child had already opened the sweets when the guy in the till wouldn't accept the card. I handed him back the half chewed sweets and walked out. Disgraceful that companies still do this / get away with it.

Some merchant card plans don't change the retailer a percentage. Some charges a fee per transaction. I was with BOI card services last year and was charged 75c per transaction on a credit card and 50c on a debit card transaction.

Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

From what I read the charge is 1% for a debit card. Pretty tiny.

Not entirely true. Bigger retailers pay lower commission than smaller retailers. Many plans charge a flat fee & not a percentage at all. Flat fee is great if the transaction is hundreds of euro but very expensive for small transactions. You can't really generalise as there are so many different plans for different retailers

Johnny Red Cab

25 cents per transaction would be the norm.

Sleeper12

Johnny Red Cab wrote:

25 cents per transaction would be the norm.

That's not true at all.

I changed providers last year and I can assure you that none were Anyway near 25c per transaction. I shopped around. I would snap up that deal in a heart beat. My average transaction is 350 euro. I'd love to only pay 25c per transaction

ED E

worded wrote: »

I know a new coffee shop struggling to survive as they are getting charged 35 cent per transaction.
That’s a huge % of a coffee sale

Then they're dopes.


Sumup would charge 8c on a €3 transaction.

L1011

Laser was flat fee (originally at least), but it's long long gone

listermint

worded wrote: »

I know a new coffee shop struggling to survive as they are getting charged 35 cent per transaction.
That’s a huge % of a coffee sale

You are giving a billion dollar corporate bank a huge % of profits from small businesses

Sure costa etc can afford it but your stance will help make it difficult for small businesses to survive

Do you just want franchises everywhere that can absorb the hit you are imposing on them ?

For me I want to help small business and I’m anti bank. They world wide shaft everyone (remember angle irish etc that nearly bank rupted the country) and you want to help them because it’s so convenient to have a card on you ?

Yes these guys are not on the ball. They haven't a breeze how to shop around for payment providers if that's the case.

the heathen

the heathen wrote: »

Like many, I'm almost entirely cashless these days - rarely carry cash. There's a Centra close to where I work in Drogheda that has a 5 euro minimum spend policy. They do have a cash machine in store but as often as not it's only stocked with 50 euro notes which is a pain in the backside when you're just buying a €3.50 sandwich.

It's the only place in Drogheda that I can think of with this policy. I'd be happy enough if they passed on whatever charge they incur to me but I presume that's not legal?

Which centra, out of curiousity?


I'd regularly be in Ballsgrove and the Rathmullan Road, and occassionally in Hardman's Gardens, and haven't seen it mentioned in those ones?

Time

worded wrote: »

I know a new coffee shop struggling to survive as they are getting charged 35 cent per transaction.
That’s a huge % of a coffee sale

You are giving a billion dollar corporate bank a huge % of profits from small businesses

Sure costa etc can afford it but your stance will help make it difficult for small businesses to survive

Do you just want franchises everywhere that can absorb the hit you are imposing on them ?

For me I want to help small business and I’m anti bank. They world wide shaft everyone (remember angle irish etc that nearly bank rupted the country) and you want to help them because it’s so convenient to have a card on you ?

Well then they need to change provider because they're being ripped off. I get charged 0.12% and 7c for a Visa or MC debit transaction which means to pay 35c i'd be processing €23,334 in a single transaction.

eagle eye

I wouldn't accept that anywhere. If somebody tells me they don't accept an order under a certain amount I just won't buy there.
What would happen if you got 5 euro petrol at a shop which tells you they don't accept orders under 10 euro? Are they going to drain the petrol?

Sleeper12

Time wrote:

Well then they need to change provider because they're being ripped off. I get charged 0.12% and 7c for a Visa or MC debit transaction which means to pay 35c i'd be processing €23,334 in a single transaction.

Who is your provider? What fees for credit cards? I'm paying a hell of a lot more than that

worded

Time wrote: »

Well then they need to change provider because they're being ripped off. I get charged 0.12% and 7c for a Visa or MC debit transaction which means to pay 35c i'd be processing €23,334 in a single transaction.

So who are the cheapest providers please and I will let them know. They inherited the CC system from the previous owners

Thanks