Where now; from sucklers?

Who2

Between beef prices, Leo’s silly comments on beef and our carbon footprint and the whole vegan epidemic that seems to be fashionable; it seems time has been called on the suckler cow. There are numerous men dropping out around me and most seem to be more or less abandoning any form of intensive agri. ( dairy excluded) I know of four or five lads with 10 or 20 cattle on 50-60 good acres and selling all surplus bales. Personally I have cut back on cow numbers and I’m going to try finish everything I breed myself but I don’t honestly think it’s going to be long term unless the figures truly shock me. We can’t all go contract rearing , dairy beef is worse than sucklers unless you get some one rear them to year and halves and let them take the hit. What are others doing?

bogman_bass

Not planning on getting out of suckers but starting to consider exploring veg growing possibilities to spread the risk a bit on the farm.

Mad_maxx

This might finally be the tipping point for land prices, should land in non dairying parts be any more expensive than land for forestry?

Hard Knocks

Mad_maxx wrote: »

This might finally be the tipping point for land prices, should land in non dairying parts be any more expensive than land for forestry?

Forestry have increased what they pay for land & I can see this increasing with the big push for more plantations

Hard Knocks

Who2 wrote: »

Between beef prices, Leo’s silly comments on beef and our carbon footprint and the whole vegan epidemic that seems to be fashionable; it seems time has been called on the suckler cow. There are numerous men dropping out around me and most seem to be more or less abandoning any form of intensive agri. ( dairy excluded) I know of four or five lads with 10 or 20 cattle on 50-60 good acres and selling all surplus bales. Personally I have cut back on cow numbers and I’m going to try finish everything I breed myself but I don’t honestly think it’s going to be long term unless the figures truly shock me. We can’t all go contract rearing , dairy beef is worse than sucklers unless you get some one rear them to year and halves and let them take the hit. What are others doing?

For top quality weanlings would you get more at the special sales than finishing?

squinn2912

Looking at some of the guys around me going out and they were mad into breeding fancy cattle. In the north it’s a bit better; cattle making £2/kg so round €2.22. But still for all the work it’s not leaving a lot. I suppose what’s pushing people out is the prospect of things getting worse

Who2

Hard Knocks wrote: »

For top quality weanlings would you get more at the special sales than finishing?

I doubt it unless your going to start training and washing them. I really couldn’t see myself at that rooting. Homegrown will have settled and should be able to thrive on better, then knock the mart fees, transport and mix up of disease which they might come into contact and I reckon I should be around 100 ahead of the lad buying in general. Unless something drastic changes then the day of €3 a kg is over. Bulls should work out alright under 16m it’s just a pity there doesn’t seem to be a profitable way to finish the heifers quickly.

Justjens

About 25% of cows not gone back in calf, either too hot for the bulls on hilly ground or cows too lazy to stand up. No harm, will just cut numbers and maybe buy in a few weanlings (cheaper than breeding my own :rolleyes:)

Aravo

Justjens wrote:

No harm, will just cut numbers and maybe buy in a few weanlings (cheaper than breeding my own )

Stats dont back up that buying weanings is cheaper than breeding and finishing.

_Brian

Aravo wrote: »

Stats dont back up that buying weanings is cheaper than breeding and finishing.

I think it depends what your breeding at home.

If your in higher end breeding then you won’t buy this style of stock cheaper. You will buy cheaper weanlings ok but do they have the breeding to reach the weight gains. My experience is that these stylish growthy weanlings are rarely cheap, maybe occasionally but to buy any number you will pay.

_Brian

Who2 wrote: »

Between beef prices, Leo’s silly comments on beef and our carbon footprint and the whole vegan epidemic that seems to be fashionable; it seems time has been called on the suckler cow. There are numerous men dropping out around me and most seem to be more or less abandoning any form of intensive agri. ( dairy excluded) I know of four or five lads with 10 or 20 cattle on 50-60 good acres and selling all surplus bales. Personally I have cut back on cow numbers and I’m going to try finish everything I breed myself but I don’t honestly think it’s going to be long term unless the figures truly shock me. We can’t all go contract rearing , dairy beef is worse than sucklers unless you get some one rear them to year and halves and let them take the hit. What are others doing?

Have been falling back in numbers here with off farm work and some health issues. The big problem is loosing momentum to do stuff like drainage and spreading lime. The extra numbers aren’t making much, but if they cover stuff like that it means allot to keeping a farm in good shape.
If there was a really nice long term native forests planting scheme I’d be really looking at it.

Dinzee Conlee

_Brian wrote: »

Have been falling back in numbers here with off farm work and some health issues. The big problem is loosing momentum to do stuff like drainage and spreading lime. The extra numbers aren’t making much, but if they cover stuff like that it means allot to keeping a farm in good shape.
If there was a really nice long term native forests planting scheme I’d be really looking at it.

Like what Brian?

There is a native woodland option now for planting, the payment is for 15 years...

tanko

Aravo wrote: »

Stats dont back up that buying weanings is cheaper than breeding and finishing.

Hmmm, i'd love to see those "stats".

_Brian

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Like what Brian?

There is a native woodland option now for planting, the payment is for 15 years...

To convert a farm to native natural woodland this country owes farmers more than 15 years payment, it’s a pittance for what is being pledged for generations to benifet from in the future.
This isn’t an ugly sika spruce plantation. This would be a proper asset which enhances the countryside and provides a refuge for wildlife.

We’re the least forested country in Europe, that says allot about what we are doing to grow forests.

charolais0153

_Brian wrote: »

To convert a farm to native natural woodland this country owes farmers more than 15 years payment, it’s a pittance for what is being pledged for generations to benifet from in the future.
This isn’t an ugly sika spruce plantation. This would be a proper asset which enhances the countryside and provides a refuge for wildlife.

We’re the least forested country in Europe, that says allot about what we are doing to grow forests.

The govermnent should have a grant for purebred charolais cattle too. Much better looking than the ugly holsteins and kiwi crosses.:pac:mnay

Bass Reeves

I think we should all consider planting area's of land that are poorer quality. Reacently talking to a lad who has about 10 acres of forrestry. It was never thinned and is now about 28 years old. He intends to clearfell it. He was unwilling to thin it over the years because of the cost involved. He has had it accessed and there will be a lot of pallet wood in the stand. He was advised that he he will clear 7k+/acre. His opinion was that it was worth replanting and clearfelling every 25-30 years. He intends to repland the 10 acres and about another 5-8 acres of wetish land he own's

893bet

10 acres is 4 hec.

He is getting 7k a hec. So 28k now plus he has to replant it.

So less and 1k per year after the last 28 years? (Ignoring inflation).

He would be much better off thinning it an letting it mature. Pallet wood doesn’t really pay well. It’s only growing into money. Clearfell it now and he will never see another penny from it (his kids or relations might).

Bass Reeves

893bet wrote: »

10 acres is 4 hec.

He is getting 7k a hec. So 28k now plus he has to replant it.

So less and 1k per year after the last 28 years? (Ignoring inflation).

He would be much better off thinning it an letting it mature. Pallet wood doesn’t really pay well. It’s only growing into money. Clearfell it now and he will never see another penny from it (his kids or relations might).

Sorry7K+/acre price of pallett wood very strong at present his was a small amount of forrestry and it was not viable to thin

893bet

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Sorry7K+/acre price of pallett wood very strong at present his was a small amount of forrestry and it was not viable to thin

Pallet wood price is not paticularly strong.

Around 20 a tonne. Saw log would be treble that easily if they let it mature.

If it’s viable to clear fell then it’s viable to thin. They may not make any money from thinnings but it will pay for itself in the additional growth.

Forests are thinned for a reason. Not sure who is advising him. Will a roadway be needed? Can he get a grant? What’s the access like?

Welding Rod

Now that suckler cow numbers are falling and mood is for more to go, it’s probsbly a good time to increase numbers particularly on the quality end of cows.

If I had a € for every time I heard or read about the imminent demise of the suckler I’d be well off today.

In business when the crowd is going all in one direction, it’s time to walk the other way!!

patsy_mccabe

'If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;'

- Rudyard Kipland

grassroot1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

'If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;'

- Rudyard Kipland

"Irish men run to gunfire as salmon to the sea"

if you replace gunfire with beef farming he probably got that one right too:D

gozunda

grassroot1 wrote: »

"Irish men run to gunfire as salmon to the sea"

if you replace gunfire with beef farming he probably got that one right too:D

Jeez there's a lot of prose around tonight altogether ..;)

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think we should all consider planting area's of land that are poorer quality. Reacently talking to a lad who has about 10 acres of forrestry. It was never thinned and is now about 28 years old. He intends to clearfell it. He was unwilling to thin it over the years because of the cost involved. He has had it accessed and there will be a lot of pallet wood in the stand. He was advised that he he will clear 7k+/acre. His opinion was that it was worth replanting and clearfelling every 25-30 years. He intends to repland the 10 acres and about another 5-8 acres of wetish land he own's

Will he clear €7000 after the cost of replanting

Fine Day

Welding Rod wrote: »

Now that suckler cow numbers are falling and mood is for more to go, it’s probsbly a good time to increase numbers particularly on the quality end of cows.

If I had a € for every time I heard or read about the imminent demise of the suckler I’d be well off today.

In business when the crowd is going all in one direction, it’s time to walk the other way!!

I think you might be right. Same thing with sheep a few years ago when a lot o people got out, anyone that stayed with sheep stuck with them so they can't be all that bad. Tillage gone the same way with most lads converting to dairy with huge investments & 7 days a week commitment. Another couple of years they be pulling out of dairy to join the next fad. Would be a shame to lose the suckler sector, serious stock been bred that weigh & grade real well when on the hock unlike the dairy stock. I am not knocking the dairy stock but it a shame to see the suckler herds disappearing.

bogman_bass

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

Fine Day

Most guys that have or had suckler in my area (midlands)are or were doing tillage also. The sugar beet was a major loss to these farmers. The beet was great to boost the income as it was a steady price. If the sucklers or corn were a poor price the beet would keep things going. Since then there has been no cushion for the rainy day.

Robson99

Welding Rod wrote: »

Now that suckler cow numbers are falling and mood is for more to go, it’s probsbly a good time to increase numbers particularly on the quality end of cows.

If I had a € for every time I heard or read about the imminent demise of the suckler I’d be well off today.

In business when the crowd is going all in one direction, it’s time to walk the other way!!

Often hear the auld fella saying when everyone other lad is running you walk and when everyone is walking run....very true words i've often found out

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Will he clear €7000 after the cost of replanting

My understanding is that replanting costs are 1k/acre(2.5K/HA). Cannot remember whether the 7K was after replanting costs. His thinking on thinning was that because it was a small site there was too much risk of messing in the thinning process. My understanding is that a very high percentage are suitable for pallet wood. It will be about two years before clear felling as a fellling licience has to be applied for and an access road. Like i said he intends to add another 5-8 acres. He considers a 30year no thinning cycle more advantageous to smaller plots. I have heard stories of lads having there plots ruined by cowboy thinners and often recieving no money for thinnings. There is also talk about a replanting grant.

Jb1989

bogman_bass wrote: »

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

At milk price atm, for men with unused parlours in this area, 20 cows is bringing in a wage.

Couple of locals have rid their 20 or 30 suckler and replaced them with milkers.

For mid sized farms like here their is a turn in dairying 20 cows as opposed to 200 cows.

As is known, if quality and efficiency is kept high, there is a turn, compared to being a busy fool with a big herd and bad profit.

Aravo

tanko wrote:

Hmmm, i'd love to see those "stats".

Stats have been checked and I am "mistaken". Will I get a MOD warning.
Teagasc eprofit monitor analysis 2017. Basically breeding and selling as weanlings or stores is the least profitable. Coming in best is buying and finishing and just behind this is breeding and finishing.

_Brian

bogman_bass wrote: »

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

Wise words...

Who2

bogman_bass wrote: »

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

The issue is you’d need near 200 cows to even make an inkling of a living. 20 cows will end up costing to keep in most instances.

coolshannagh28

Bass Reeves wrote: »

My understanding is that replanting costs are 1k/acre(2.5K/HA). Cannot remember whether the 7K was after replanting costs. His thinking on thinning was that because it was a small site there was too much risk of messing in the thinning process. My understanding is that a very high percentage are suitable for pallet wood. It will be about two years before clear felling as a fellling licience has to be applied for and an access road. Like i said he intends to add another 5-8 acres. He considers a 30year no thinning cycle more advantageous to smaller plots. I have heard stories of lads having there plots ruined by cowboy thinners and often recieving no money for thinnings. There is also talk about a replanting grant.

Done a forestry discussion group recently , replanting cost is €1200 per acre , a plot of unthinned forestry we visited planted in 89 went into 9k per acre at clear fell tax free.
The replanting stipulation is alleged to be waived in the next round of forestry grants or possibly may be grant aided as Ireland struggles to comply with 2020 carbon targets.

Bass Reeves

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Done a forestry discussion group recently , replanting cost is €1200 per acre , a plot of unthinned forestry we visited planted in 89 went into 9k per acre at clear fell tax free.
The replanting stipulation is alleged to be waived in the next round of forestry grants or possibly may be grant aided as Ireland struggles to comply with 2020 carbon targets.

It is not quite Tax free you pay PRSI I think at 4%. However the lad I was speaking to so was more on less on the ball it may have been 7k+ clear after replanting costs on an unthinned plantation. Its a viable option for area's of a farm that are poorer quality. I know some might think it is next generation that will benefit. But you will receive 15 years in premia. Just doing a calculation diverse conifer @510/Ha a 10 acre plantation will yield 2040 for 15 years tax free. If carbon credits come in down the line you may benefit as well. It's a consideration that we may all have to start thinking about

wrangler

Very good interview with James Murphy in the Indo today, changing to dairying,
Humself and the son have tried to avoid dairying but have no choice now

Panch18

bogman_bass wrote: »

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

Bang - in a nutshell you have nailed it.

All types of farming now are about scale - tillage, dairy, pigs, sheep. It's all about more more more for less less less reward.

And beef is exactly the same

SuperTortoise

bogman_bass wrote: »

Should we talk about the elephant in the room? Scale.

You wouldn’t try and make a living off 20 dairy cows but a lot would want to do it with that many sucklers.

Perhaps it’s not the suckler cow that is the endangered species but the suckler farmer.

You have a point, but you could look at it this way as well, if a person is working full time hours even if they are considered a "part time" farmer in name only, are they not entitled to make a week's wages for their efforts?

_Brian

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Done a forestry discussion group recently , replanting cost is €1200 per acre , a plot of unthinned forestry we visited planted in 89 went into 9k per acre at clear fell tax free.
The replanting stipulation is alleged to be waived in the next round of forestry grants or possibly may be grant aided as Ireland struggles to comply with 2020 carbon targets.

The replanting stipulation being waived, wht does that bring to the table. The cost of returning to farming woukd be prohibitive surely so is there another option but replant.

From the end of the premium to clearfell there is zero income, that’s 10-15 years of nothing. I can’t get my head around why that is an option for people.

So 15 years of modest premiums
15 years of nothing.
Clearfell may pay for itself so no income there.
A chunk of income at clearfell.

No income then until next clearfell in 30 years ?

If your going to die within the 15 years then it provides a lifetime income, otherwise I can’t see how forestry is any sort of a long term project for a farm, surely any future generations will curse you if they had any hope of farming and none of us know what they will do.

charolais0153

_Brian wrote: »

The replanting stipulation being waived, wht does that bring to the table. The cost of returning to farming woukd be prohibitive surely so is there another option but replant.

From the end of the premium to clearfell there is zero income, that’s 10-15 years of nothing. I can’t get my head around why that is an option for people.

So 15 years of modest premiums
15 years of nothing.
Clearfell may pay for itself so no income there.
A chunk of income at clearfell.

No income then until next clearfell in 30 years ?

If your going to die within the 15 years then it provides a lifetime income, otherwise I can’t see how forestry is any sort of a long term project for a farm, surely any future generations will curse you if they had any hope of farming and none of us know what they will do.

But if peopke arent making money farming what is the difference.

_Brian

charolais0153 wrote: »

But if peopke arent making money farming what is the difference.

Yep, I see your point.

I just couldn’t commit to such a permanent change for what I see as an even worse future.

blue5000

I think you'd be better off staggering the planting every 15-20 years. Every farm family has times when they need a cash injection, like a son getting married and building a house, or a father retiring, or a family going to college, some of it could be clear felled at these times. One of the good things about forestry is you have flexibility as to when you want to sell, you don't have to sell it at year 37, you could wait another few years if you had to.

No one should really be planting the best land, on marginal land it returns as good as sucklers with less labour. I think forestry should be considered as part of a mix of enterprises, not blanket planted from edge to edge, this, I think is why forestry has such a bad name.

Cattlepen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is not quite Tax free you pay PRSI I think at 4%. However the lad I was speaking to so was more on less on the ball it may have been 7k+ clear after replanting costs on an unthinned plantation. Its a viable option for area's of a farm that are poorer quality. I know some might think it is next generation that will benefit. But you will receive 15 years in premia. Just doing a calculation diverse conifer @510/Ha a 10 acre plantation will yield 2040 for 15 years tax free. If carbon credits come in down the line you may benefit as well. It's a consideration that we may all have to start thinking about

I think the government already is claiming the carbon credits on any grant aided forestry

memorystick

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you'd be better off staggering the planting every 15-20 years. Every farm family has times when they need a cash injection, like a son getting married and building a house, or a father retiring, or a family going to college, some of it could be clear felled at these times. One of the good things about forestry is you have flexibility as to when you want to sell, you don't have to sell it at year 37, you could wait another few years if you had to.

No one should really be planting the best land, on marginal land it returns as good as sucklers with less labour. I think forestry should be considered as part of a mix of enterprises, not blanket planted from edge to edge, this, I think is why forestry has such a bad name.

I’ll be 64 in 20 years time. Should I plant a few acres for my retirement at 89?

Who2

memorystick wrote: »

I’ll be 64 in 20 years time. Should I plant a few acres for my retirement at 89?

I thought you were a farmer not a guard , sure farmers don’t retire

memorystick

Who2 wrote: »

I thought you were a farmer not a guard , sure farmers don’t retire

Not a guard. What business is it of yours anyway.

Who2

memorystick wrote: »

Not a guard. What business is it of yours anyway.

Be like that if you feel like it I was saying it in jest

Mad_maxx

Guy from Cork ( I think) was on with Sean o rourke on radio this morning, runs a multi million dollar medical cannabis operation in california, claims he grows much of it on an acre of ground in County Tyrone which is surrounded by forest, yer man sounded a bit sketchy with his story details but towards the end, referred to Irish farmers making nothing from beef and how future opportunities lie in the cannabis industry which does seem to be coming more officially recognised even its not yet respectable.

Pot farmers?

Bass Reeves

_Brian wrote: »

The replanting stipulation being waived, wht does that bring to the table. The cost of returning to farming woukd be prohibitive surely so is there another option but replant.

From the end of the premium to clearfell there is zero income, that’s 10-15 years of nothing. I can’t get my head around why that is an option for people.

So 15 years of modest premiums
15 years of nothing.
Clearfell may pay for itself so no income there.
A chunk of income at clearfell.

No income then until next clearfell in 30 years ?

If your going to die within the 15 years then it provides a lifetime income, otherwise I can’t see how forestry is any sort of a long term project for a farm, surely any future generations will curse you if they had any hope of farming and none of us know what they will do.

You have to look in the longterm. Most farmers struggle to put togeather a decent pension fund or funds for retirement. You could look at this as a method to pay off farm debt or children education costs before you retire, or have funds for retirement to top up OAP.

Most very marginal land returns nothing to a farming enterprise. It mat actually cost more to maintain it. Forrestry premium especially being tax free would often be the same as the economic return from this land. If Forrestry plantation is only 10 acres it allows owner to consider doing some of the thinning themselves and adding sale value maybe as fuel or selling or realizing all the income from thinnings which is often diluted by harvesting costs. Maybe another 10 acres plantation after 15 years would really stagger the income longer term.

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you'd be better off staggering the planting every 15-20 years. Every farm family has times when they need a cash injection, like a son getting married and building a house, or a father retiring, or a family going to college, some of it could be clear felled at these times. One of the good things about forestry is you have flexibility as to when you want to sell, you don't have to sell it at year 37, you could wait another few years if you had to.

No one should really be planting the best land, on marginal land it returns as good as sucklers with less labour. I think forestry should be considered as part of a mix of enterprises, not blanket planted from edge to edge, this, I think is why forestry has such a bad name.

It is more than likely not viable to go below 8-10 acres/plantation and as you say on the poorest of you land. Added onto a farm and where you thin yourself I imagine that returns from year 15-40 would be well above drystock. Biggest issue with forrestry are lads planting the whole farm and not managing it themselves. While managing and thinning will yield add to farm income on smaller sized plots you also the option of not doing this and clearfelling at year 30.

Cavanjack

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Guy from Cork ( I think) was on with Sean o rourke on radio this morning, runs a multi million dollar medical cannabis operation in california, claims he grows much of it on an acre of ground in County Tyrone which is surrounded by forest, yer man sounded a bit sketchy with his story details but towards the end, referred to Irish farmers making nothing from beef and how future opportunities lie in the cannabis industry which does seem to be coming more officially recognised even its not yet respectable.

Pot farmers?

We would over produce and flood the market with cheap hash until there was no profit left in it

Water John

Cannabis is usually grown indoors to regulate the different climates needed during the phases of growth.
When not if, the market is regulated here you won't have fellas growing a field of the stuff. Glass houses and poly tunnels will be used.

Yes its hard to know what use land can be put to, to give a reasonable income. A move away from commodity to niche is certainly a road for some.