buying a house that needs work v one that doesnt need as much

mkdon

Hi all,

probably a silly question and one maybe someone can assist with.

there is a bang average 3 bed semi house for 30k less in same estate that needs some work done to it. trying to work out if its worth buying the cheaper alternative or not

the work is the following:

1. new decent windows , doors, front door and side door.
2. boiler replacement
3. floorboarding thrououghout (approx 90 square metres)
4. some kitchen enhancements....

would anyone be able to give ballpark on the cost and the time frame would take to get this done?

trying to workout if cheaper alternative is better or nay.

any advice on this is welcome

lucast2007us

Do you know the BER rating of the property?

Aravo

mkdon wrote:

1. new decent windows , doors, front door and side door. 2. boiler replacement 3. floorboarding thrououghout (approx 90 square metres) 4. some kitchen enhancements....

1. 15k
2. 2-3k
3. 3-5k
4. >5k depends on changes. Granite work tops big bucks etc

I think I would go for the house with no changes required.

Black_Knight

Don't forget radiators and probably insulation (Based on what you're saying needs changing).

Aravo wrote: »

1. 15k
2. 2-3k
3. 3-5k
4. >5k depends on changes. Granite work tops big bucks etc

I think I would go for the house with no changes required.

One needs those big changes. The other needs less changes. I guess the question is, what is needed in the other house?

If the boiler, doors/windows are all fine in the 2nd house, how good are they? How efficient is the boiler? How good is the front door (new composite doors have great u values)? You can easily sit in a house that's fine, and waste money on heating because things "aren't that bad". Similarly with kitchens. Do you like the kitchen in the more expensive house, or it "fine" and "will do for now"?

We bought an old house that pretty much just need a lick of paint. We did have a few bigish things on our to do list (move & change the boiler, and put in a stove). But aside from those we've since changed radiators, sanded, stained and sealed the upstairs floors, insulated the attic, redone our driveway entirely, and we're in the process of doing up our hall and front door.

Black_Knight

mkdon wrote: »

there is a bang average 3 bed semi house for 30k less in same estate that needs some work done to it. trying to work out if its worth buying the cheaper alternative or not

Are they the same in every way, other than one being in better shape than the other?

Same size? Facing same direction (south facing rooms etc)? Same size garden (front and rear)? Same parking allocation?

Is the 30k more property a "turn-key", or does it need some TLC in areas also?

awec

For me, it would depend on:

1. Can you afford to invest in the works required (both in terms of money and the stress/time it will take)
2. If you did the works, would this then be a better property for you than the other house?

If the answer to either of these is no, it seems like the other house (the one in good shape) would be better, no?

jlm29

Do you actually like the stuff that’s in the dearer house, or is it just in better condition? I’d prefer to pick my own stuff personally, if I’d be there long term. If it’s perfectly fine, but not necessarily what you’d pick yourself, it’ll be a long time before you can justify changing it (cosmetic stuff, obviously!)

enricoh

Was watching that eco eye yesterday and a couple were upgrading their ber d to an a, think it cost 60k iirc with government grant paying half of it.
Id go with the 30k less house n get it super insulated.
Should be on the rte player, worth a watch if u might be at the same craic.
Only problem is when you go rooting at a house there's always unforseen costs!

Black_Knight

enricoh wrote: »

Was watching that eco eye yesterday and a couple were upgrading their ber d to an a, think it cost 60k iirc with government grant paying half of it.
Id go with the 30k less house n get it super insulated.

Not sure what grant that is.

I know there was a Home renovation incentive to get the VAT back, but it ended 31st Dec 2018.

How much time have you got on your hands? Doing up a gaff takes lots of time. You can save a few bob if you can do work yourself.

New composite front door is somewhere about 2-3 grand, heating could maybe eat another 2-3 grand depending on what needs doing with the system....

Take it from experience here, you can go through a surprising amount of money doing all these things.

Do you know any trades who can help? Ask around about prices and advice, it's a fierce hard question to answer on here.

Mrs OBumble

If they're in the same estate, they were probably built about the same time. One needs a boiler replacement now. The other one is likely to need it ... how soon? Yeah, I know they don't all fail right on schedule, but roughly similar.

lucast2007us

Black_Knight wrote:

Not sure what grant that is.

It's the SEAI Deep retrofit grant worth googling and having a look.

the_syco

mkdon wrote: »

the work is the following:

1. new decent windows , doors, front door and side door.
2. boiler replacement
3. floorboarding thrououghout (approx 90 square metres)
4. some kitchen enhancements....

AND THIS IS THE THINGS THAT YOU CAN SEE.

No, seriously. They're all things that you can see. But how much needs fixing that you can't see? I'm guessing that the house was rented, and whoever lived there thrashed it before moving.

Black_Knight

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

New composite front door is somewhere about 2-3 grand, heating could maybe eat another 2-3 grand depending on what needs doing with the system....

Quoted 1650 the other day for a composite door, fully fitted. If there's class to the side of the door I think they're around 2200.

lucast2007us wrote: »

It's the SEAI Deep retrofit grant worth googling and having a look.

Neat. Too late for us though. House was drylined when we bought it. I've done the insulation. We changed the boiler already and fossil fuels are exempt from Deep retrofit. Interesting though, if it's not cripplingly expensive.

Alf Veedersane

Black_Knight wrote: »

Neat. Too late for us though. House was drylined when we bought it. I've done the insulation. We changed the boiler already and fossil fuels are exempt from Deep retrofit. Interesting though, if it's not cripplingly expensive.

It wouldn't be ineligible on the basis that other works that have been done. It depends on the current BER and if it can achieve both an A rating and a 150 kWh/m2/yr uplift in the BER.

But yeah the fossil fuel heating wouldn't be funded.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

How much does rewiring cost at a ballpark?

4ensic15

Pheonix10 wrote: »

How much does rewiring cost at a ballpark?

5K

zl1whqvjs75cdy

4ensic15 wrote: »

5K

That'd be at the low end I would have thought. You'll need to replaster and fix the ceilings and floors after too

Thoie

Bear in mind if you're getting a mortgage, they may not include the "repairs" in your mortgage.

Let's say you're qualified for €230k, and the "good" house is €230k.

If you go to buy the other house for €200k, with repairs costing €30k, there's no guarantee that the bank will give you the full €230k on the mortgage. So unless you have spare savings, you may end up having to borrow the €30k for repairs separately, at a more expensive interest rate.


Alternative view:
I've no idea how much the repairs would cost, but even if they take the full €30k, there is an advantage of then knowing the new stuff is "done", and you get your own choice of doors/windows/floors, rather than someone elses's choice.

End of the day, you'll probably find the end cost is about the same for both houses, neither will be significantly cheaper. Dealing with builders and plumbers invariably leads to delays ("oops, we brought the wrong window, we'll have to order a new one and that will be another 6 weeks" or "I need a special part, I'll just run and get it, but while I'm doing that I'll get an emergency call and won't be back for 2 days"). It can be stressful, but you'll have what you want at the end.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

We bought the house that needs work in your situation op. Been a pretty steep learning curve for us and to be honest if I was to go back I probably wouldn't do it again. We were stretched a bit financially so couldn't do all we wanted right off the bat. If you have a spare bit of cash to do everything then I'd go for it. Factor in at least 10% on top for things to go sideways on you though. Older houses are fantastic for throwing up totally unpredictable issues.

Big advantage is of course at the end you've chosen everything and the house is completely to your taste.

Black_Knight

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It wouldn't be ineligible on the basis that other works that have been done. It depends on the current BER and if it can achieve both an A rating and a 150 kWh/m2/yr uplift in the BER.

But yeah the fossil fuel heating wouldn't be funded.

Our BER was E when we got the place, but they had no certification for the drylining so it wasn't included in the assessment. It certainly doesn't feel like an E rated house (other than the hallway, but hoping a new door goes a long way towards that).

I know we'd be eligible, but it'd be 2-3k down the drain on the new boiler if we were to do it. Probably wouldn't like the stove we've put in since it's solid fuel.

There's a few things we want to do: change front door, change back door, but not enough to bring it to an A rating, nor would we have the funds or need to bring it to an A rated house.

robp

Black_Knight wrote: »

Our BER was E when we got the place, but they had no certification for the drylining so it wasn't included in the assessment. It certainly doesn't feel like an E rated house (other than the hallway, but hoping a new door goes a long way towards that).

I know we'd be eligible, but it'd be 2-3k down the drain on the new boiler if we were to do it. Probably wouldn't like the stove we've put in since it's solid fuel.

There's a few things we want to do: change front door, change back door, but not enough to bring it to an A rating, nor would we have the funds or need to bring it to an A rated house.

A lot of people look to new windows and doors for improving BER rating but filling gaps in interior wall fabric is a lot cheaper because it is easy to do it yourself. This is especially true if you have old plasterboard. I am pointing it out as SEAI doesn't promote it like they promote attic insulation and renewables.

annoyedgal

We just bought a house that needed some work including a rewire and new floors. First of its very hard to get people to take on the job esp if its not a big job.
Secondly everything costs way more than you might think and there will be add ons! We payed around 7 k over budget which is probably not bad.
Had a rewire, big messy job. Involves chasing, plastering and painting. Our rewire was 7.5 k not including painting and plastering.
House will most likely need insulating, def money well spent. Lastly its a complete head wreck living through renovations. I was lucky as could move out with the kids to my parents for 5 weeks.
If i had the choice and children involved I'd take the ready to go house if its well insulated and you like the decor. Just my 2 cents!

Black_Knight

robp wrote: »

A lot of people look to new windows and doors for improving BER rating but filling gaps in interior wall fabric is a lot cheaper because it is easy to do it yourself. This is especially true if you have old plasterboard. I am pointing it out as SEAI doesn't promote it like they promote attic insulation and renewables.

Oh the internals are drylined already. 1 whole side of the house isn't though, so i'm thinking pumping it might be an idea. There's an individual grant for that too.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Yeah actually that is something massive to consider. If you have to live in the house while the work is going on it could be a total nightmare. When we were having ours done the rads were all off the walls the back wall was knocked out and all the floors were up. Then it snowed for a week bringing everything to a total stop. If we had been living in it we probably would have frozen to death.

Cuddlesworth

mkdon wrote: »

the work is the following:

1. new decent windows , doors, front door and side door.
2. boiler replacement
3. floorboarding thrououghout (approx 90 square metres)
4. some kitchen enhancements....

Because like others said, its not just new windows/doors etc.

If your redoing the kitchen, ripping out windows and doors, replacing floorboards, then the most financially sound thing to do is renovate the house rather then trying to be selective about the bits that get done. The reasons for this become obvious, like when you cop those single glazed windows are not the reason the house is a icebox. Ripping back up the flooring later, because you need sockets somewhere, or a new pipe because its been there for 40 years, is just far more expensive in the long run. The new boiler just being more trouble then its worth, because the radiators and pipes are too old. Its really just like taking out payday loans, yeah you get it now but your going to pay far more in the long term doing it right.

So insulation, plumbing, rewiring ends up getting done anyway. And it costs way more because you are just ripping up things over and over again.

People don't factor these overall costs into houses where this was done vs doer uppers where the wiring/plumbing and insulation is 30-40 years old, at least in Ireland. Way more value in the house that had a 60k renovation recently, then the doer upper.

Chickarooney5

Finding this thread very interesting, and little terrifying at the same time! House hunting for the first time at the moment and, in the area we want to buy, most of the houses are doer-uppers (built circa 1945). The ones that have been renovated are mainly out of our price range.

On the plus side:
We have the option of staying with family while work is being done
A family member works in construction so has skills and contacts
We get to choose what we want

On the minus side:
We have a small budget for renovations (which would include works quoted by OP, plus rewiring)
Houses are fairly small/not too well laid out so we will want to knock down walls and eventually extend or the convert attic (if feasible) at some stage when we can afford it

By the sounds of things there is no getting around the expense/stress of a doer-upper but I think we have little choice!

annoyedgal

We looked at loads of 1950s builds when househunting. Solid built houses with great gardens but had very little upgrading over the years. To be honest i count my stars now we ended up in a 1970s house with less to do as I'm amazing how expensive work is and how little your money gets!
We spent 30k plus on a basic renovation, some insulation and rewire, doesn't include a new kitchen or windows and no structural work. If we had bought an older house no way could we have afforded to modernise it.
Defìnitely get a builder in for an estimate before you purchase. Great that you have contacts! Also if you can do some yourself that's a big plus too. We couldn't!

Cuddlesworth

Chickarooney5 wrote: »

Finding this thread very interesting, and little terrifying at the same time! House hunting for the first time at the moment and, in the area we want to buy, most of the houses are doer-uppers (built circa 1945). The ones that have been renovated are mainly out of our price range.

This is a common problem. People have a budget and when buying houses, they go right for the very max in the "best area". Which means the worst houses in the best locations. I don't really have a solution for this.

I will say that their comes a point where your max is high enough that you can make better choices in the type of property you want to buy.

4ensic15

The one thing you can't do with a house is physically move it. I have a relation by marriage who bought a house built in 1947. The house on one side is 1938 and on the other side 1954. All of the owners bought as is and a few years later did a big upgrade/extension. they now have high-quality houses in a high-quality area. It meant slumming it for a few years but all in all was way cheaper than buy in another area and try and move upmarket.

We went with the advice of buying the worst house in the best location. Two houses came up in the area we wanted - both early 1970s, one which hadn't been touched since it was built and was a total refurb and another that had newer floors, kitchen, better windows etc. We went with the former.

We paid 40k less than our neighbour but ultimately we both ended up completely gutting the houses, completely refurbishing and extending. The extra money they paid for the better house turned out to be a waste as they ripped everything out in the end.

With regard to costs, everything costs more and takes longer than you will be told by architects and engineers when you are planning. Decide on what you want, put it to tender and don't deviate from the plan with builder as any 'extras' you didn't consider from the outset will delay the project and the builder can pretty much name his price.

We bought our house this time last year and hope to be finished in April. It's a long, often frustrating, process to refurbish a house, but in a few months we will have a house that we designed and one that suits our needs. It is in a great location and has a lovely garden and is far more attractive than similarly priced new houses in the area.

Good luck!

enricoh

Read in the indo today that its hard to sell fixer uppers in dublin now, due to the soaring builders costs.
A good few people bought them, put in planning for an extension and by the time they got the planning the prices had jumped again.


End of the 'doer-upper': rising cost of renovations cripples demand for ageing homes
Irish property prices have caught the builders blues
Sudden surge in renovation costs seeing the values of older homes falling relative to other properties
Estate agents in city postcodes with high numbers of executor sales or with large numbers of period properties now reporting a real impact on tdemand for older homes in need of work

zl1whqvjs75cdy

enricoh wrote: »

Read in the indo today that its hard to sell fixer uppers in dublin now, due to the soaring builders costs.
A good few people bought them, put in planning for an extension and by the time they got the planning the prices had jumped again.


End of the 'doer-upper': rising cost of renovations cripples demand for ageing homes
Irish property prices have caught the builders blues
Sudden surge in renovation costs seeing the values of older homes falling relative to other properties
Estate agents in city postcodes with high numbers of executor sales or with large numbers of period properties now reporting a real impact on tdemand for older homes in need of work

Interesting. So doer uppers are too much, and the cost of building is going up which will obviously also affect new builds. Wonder what people are gonna buy? That sweet spot in the middle where the works been done to an older house?

Sarn

People definitely underestimate the cost of fixing up, especially in the current climate of renovation price rises. The other problem is actually getting someone interested in the work. Our architect was telling us about another project where nothing has come back after it went out to tender. Fortunately, we managed to get some but the tenders that came back were all 20-50% higher than anticipated.

In our case, the house had been rented out for years so needed a good bit of work, we also wanted to extend. Others went up in the same estate in better condition for more money (+50-60k), however, the difference was mostly superficial. We still would have ended up gutting them, except we would have paid extra in the first place for something we didn’t need. You just need to make sure that you’re willing or able to live in your new home until you’ve either the money or skills to get the work done.

We had considered buying a lovely little cottage in serious need of work (it was unliveable) until the bidding got ridiculously out of hand. Started at just over €400k and went to mid €500k. The existing extension would have had to have been pulled down leaving the 30m2 cottage. With what we know now, between professional fees and renovation we reckon it would have taken at least another 200k to get it renovated and up to about 70m2 total.

ste

Have to agree with theme here that renovating a do-er-upper affordably will break your heart in Dublin.

FWIW in 2015 we got work done incl. new electrics, new bathroom, new kitchen, new gfch boiler (new location) + cistern + tank, wood stove. We also dry lined some walls & had to do some painting/decorating. Since then we did ext windows, doors & refurb downstairs toilet.
All more expensive than planned & incredibly the price difference between house with work done, vs not done is negligible (well maybe 25% of the cost)

If I were to do again, I would either
1. Buy a house that needed a complete gutting & renovation & get a mortgage that includes this project (this is 100% possible, but involves a bit of homework)
2. Buy a house walk in condition

My 2c

stiofan85

Doer upper will break your heart and bank account for two years. You'll under estimate the cost and time of everything. Fall out with your other half when one or both of you are fed up with constantly having someone being done or something unfinished due to lack of time/money/giving a f*ck.

I say this as I spend my Saturday evening painting doors. I've been at this 2 years now, an inch at a time.

Buy the turn key gaf. Enjoy your spare time.

battser

ste wrote: »

1. Buy a house that needed a complete gutting & renovation & get a mortgage that includes this project (this is 100% possible, but involves a bit of homework)

My broker told me that something like that was 100% not possible. Do you have any information on it as I couldnt find anything.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

stiofan85 wrote: »

Doer upper will break your heart and bank account for two years. You'll under estimate the cost and time of everything. Fall out with your other half when one or both of you are fed up with constantly having someone being done or something unfinished due to lack of time/money/giving a f*ck.

I say this as I spend my Saturday evening painting doors. I've been at this 2 years now, an inch at a time.

Buy the turn key gaf. Enjoy your spare time.

I'm working my way through my skirting boards. Stay strong!

stiofan85

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm working my way through my skirting boards. Stay strong!

Did some of that earlier this morning. FML

ste

battser wrote: »

My broker told me that something like that was 100% not possible. Do you have any information on it as I couldnt find anything.

Who is your broker?
AIB & BOI do these in right circumstances I believe. I was offered one. Bear in mind it would be more complex, it involves staged drawdowns, certifications, costing certifications etc.
Somewhat like self build mortgage. Suggest search Google and askaboutmoney.com
I didn't pursue it so I can't help you there

Worth investigating if doing full renovation

Cyrus

I’m very thankful that I got a good steer on the costs of doing up a 1950s house we were interested in , wasn’t anything major to my mind but the costs were basically going to be double what I envisaged .

We ended buying a new build and realised that even the process of decorating that to our taste doing the garden etc etc was about as much as we could take on with small kids and two busy jobs !

wersal gummage

ste wrote: »

Who is your broker?
AIB & BOI do these in right circumstances I believe. I was offered one. Bear in mind it would be more complex, it involves staged drawdowns, certifications, costing certifications etc.
Somewhat like self build mortgage. Suggest search Google and askaboutmoney.com
I didn't pursue it so I can't help you there

Worth investigating if doing full renovation

We were told similar last year, it was possible to include the renovation work in the mortgage, provided a valuation would that the total mortgage was reflected in house value and provided we stayed within the 80/20 by the end of the job.... The places we were looking needed around 2 to 3 hundred thousand worth of work and with all the hassle involved in doing that work, together with added stress of dealing with the bank requirements, we chickened out

Cuddlesworth

battser wrote: »

My broker told me that something like that was 100% not possible. Do you have any information on it as I couldnt find anything.

Have a significant deposit and buy a property where the total cost(house + renovations) are still well within the Central Bank rules. So have lots of cash basically.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Just to actually link this back to the question op asked ha. I wouldn't consider that work to be in the realm of major renovation. Mostly single trades, one day jobs. Boiler may be an exception depending on what you want.