Import of dirty diesels from the UK might be banned

unkel

Not sure how relevant this is in the light of Brexit - no deal would mean the immediate end of imports anyway as second hand cars would attract both import duty, VRT and VAT when imported, more than deleting any possible profit

About time a ban on filthy old diesels (pre 2014 / pre the Euro6 emission standard) is considered though. We don't take in UK rubbish for landfill like some third world country, do we? Why take their old cancerous diesels?

Article

Pkiernan

unkel wrote: »

Not sure how relevant this is in the light of Brexit - no deal would mean the immediate end of imports anyway as second hand cars would attract both import duty, VRT and VAT when imported, more than deleting any possible profit

About time a ban on filthy old diesels (pre 2014 / pre the Euro6 emission standard) is considered though. We don't take in UK rubbish for landfill like some third world country, do we? Why take their old cancerous diesels?

Article

Do you support banning all diesels older than 2014?

ELM327

It was suggested by Nissan, who a) lead the market in non diesel segments (petrol sales, and EV sales) and b) have a vested interest in blocking second hand grey imports, due to the shift of buyers here from brand new diesels, to 6-18 month old diesels imported from the UK

Yes, this is nothing more than a lobby group looking out for their own interests.

ELM327

Pkiernan wrote: »

Do you support banning all diesels older than 2014?

Only a moron could support that, given that the vast majority of our national fleet likely fall into that.

unkel

Pkiernan wrote: »

Do you support banning all diesels older than 2014?

Not outright, no. Not from a practical and moral point of view. It would not be fair on people who were stimulated to buy diesels by previous governments (because of the chape tax and VRT)

Diesels should not be near lots of people though. I would support a phased in ban of old diesels entering city centres.

FR85

So, is this the government trying to fleece us of more money or is it a pollution thing.....


Bit of both going on!

Whatever about Manufacturers/Dealers lobbying with their own interests in mind, it's pretty clear that we're well on our way to become the place to offload older UK Diesels that are going to be increasingly targeted by UKGOV.

Our only real saving grace with Noxious Diesels is that we don't the population or near the size of the cities as in the UK, parts of London are near poisonous pollution levels.

imo if you want to import a Diesel then you have to put up with the particle filters, urea and all the bells and whistles to make them somewhat clean so banning pre Euro6 imports is the way to go.

FR85

unkel wrote: »

Not outright, no. Not from a practical and moral point of view. It would not be fair on people who were stimulated to buy diesels by previous governments (because of the chape tax and VRT)

Diesels should not be near lots of people though. I would support a phased in ban of old diesels entering city centres.

What do you do about buses, delivery trucks, bin trucks, road working plant, building sites.....diesels will not be going anywhere anytime soon out of towns or cities.

unkel

FR85 wrote: »

What do you do about buses, delivery trucks, bin trucks, road working plant, building sites.....diesels will not be going anywhere anytime soon out of towns or cities.

Of course diesels aren't going anywhere out of our cities soon. It's a gradual process. You are aware new diesel only buses will be banned from Irish towns / cities in a few months time?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Of course diesels aren't going anywhere out of our cities soon. It's a gradual process. You are aware new diesel only buses will be banned from Irish towns / cities in a few months time?

Not entirely true.
What is happening is a ban on new purchases of diesel buses.
Right after CIE have bought a large batch of new diesel buses

Existing diesel buses will be allowed continue business as usual. And private bus companies (with the possible exception of the Go Ahead buses doing PSA work) will be buying diesel buses as they do now.

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

Of course diesels aren't going anywhere out of our cities soon. It's a gradual process. You are aware new diesel only buses will be banned from Irish towns / cities in a few months time?

I'll believe that when I see it: we also import buses btw................

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

Not sure how relevant this is in the light of Brexit - no deal would mean the immediate end of imports anyway as second hand cars would attract both import duty, VRT and VAT when imported, more than deleting any possible profit

About time a ban on filthy old diesels (pre 2014 / pre the Euro6 emission standard) is considered though. We don't take in UK rubbish for landfill like some third world country, do we? Why take their old cancerous diesels?

Article

It won't mean the end: it will mean a price increase. All the vehicles in question are EU compliant (as of date of their reg), and so will be legal here. They can't retro-legislate.

This is just Mr Nissan crying in his beer. If he really wanted to make a difference he should invest some of his energy (sic) in getting rid of VRT - we'd find new cars a damned sight easier to consider to buy, then.

Old diesel

FR85 wrote: »

What do you do about buses, delivery trucks, bin trucks, road working plant, building sites.....diesels will not be going anywhere anytime soon out of towns or cities.

I think the point is about looking at imports of cars - over a certain age - with a view to improving the cleaniness of the overall national fleet by encouraging the person buying a 2012 import to buy a newer car.

The Nissan vested interest in this obviously stinks but we already have city bans elsewhere on diesel vehicles that dont meet a particular euro standard - London is an example of this.

The way London do it is that you pay a fine of 200 pounds sterling for driving a non compliant vehicle in the low emissions zone.

The Nissan idea is effectively saying that all imports of cars should be of Euro 6 compliant cars.

How they view classics I've no idea but it looks stupid to stop a 2012 Mercedes coming in because "too dirty" but because of a classic exemption a 1970 Volkswagen Beetle is allowed in.

Edit the 200 pound fine is for commercial vehicles

unkel

galwaytt wrote: »

It won't mean the end: it will mean a price increase. All the vehicles in question are EU compliant (as of date of their reg), and so will be legal here. They can't retro-legislate.

Several European cities have banned older diesel cars or imposed punitive entry fees in the last few years. In London you pay GBP10 on top of the congestion charge of GBP11.50. Per day. Who's to say this won't happen in Dublin in the next year or two? It only takes one politician with balls and a moral compass to get things going. Like Micheál Martin and the smoking ban (I was a smoker myself at the time)

Ireland is about to pay massive fines (hundreds of millions per year) because we are not going to keep to the emissions levels we committed to.

gctest50

FR85 wrote: »

What do you do about buses, delivery trucks, bin trucks, road working plant, building sites.....diesels will not be going anywhere anytime soon out of towns or cities.

Enough room on them to convert to natural gas :

There'd be room on a truck/bus etc to retrofit exhaust filters etc

Retrofitted truck:





results from buses :

.

professore

unkel wrote: »

Several European cities have banned older diesel cars or imposed punitive entry fees in the last few years. In London you pay GBP10 on top of the congestion charge of GBP11.50. Per day. Who's to say this won't happen in Dublin in the next year or two? It only takes one politician with balls and a moral compass to get things going. Like Micheál Martin and the smoking ban (I was a smoker myself at the time)

Ireland is about to pay massive fines (hundreds of millions per year) because we are not going to keep to the emissions levels we committed to.

That's carbon emissions, which petrol is a worse contributor to than diesel. Nothing to do with particulate pollution.

Shefwedfan

professore wrote: »

That's carbon emissions, which petrol is a worse contributor to than diesel. Nothing to do with particulate pollution.

No it's not


https://www.thelocal.de/20181108/cologne-and-bonn-issued-with-diesel-ban-orders

Atlantic Dawn

Why not instead fail cars at NCT for having their dpf removed, do roadside checks on trucks to see if they have Adblue defect devices fitted, make it not worth anyone's while.

Shefwedfan

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why not instead fail cars at NCT for having their dpf removed, do roadside checks on trucks to see if they have Adblue defect devices fitted, make it not worth anyone's while.

Easier to hit at source, increase the VRT on diesel, just so it makes it only worth importing for someone who is doing te high mileage that makes sense with diesel....


No point discussing haulage etc because that just pushs up the price of everything including milk, bread etc.....

ShadowHearth

Government making some money with uk imports, but not as much as it could make with new cars so obviously greed is going strong here.

Then again, I read that article today and its barebones with nothing to back it up. Click bait at its best.

One way or another, Ireland will be capital of diesel cars for very long time. Government won't shoot one of its balls, as tax on fuel is so yummy. You need to pay those massive wages and pensions for big boys.

swarlb

unkel wrote: »

Several European cities have banned older diesel cars or imposed punitive entry fees in the last few years. In London you pay GBP10 on top of the congestion charge of GBP11.50. Per day. Who's to say this won't happen in Dublin in the next year or two? It only takes one politician with balls and a moral compass to get things going. Like Micheál Martin and the smoking ban (I was a smoker myself at the time)

Ireland is about to pay massive fines (hundreds of millions per year) because we are not going to keep to the emissions levels we committed to.

The smoking ban was a completely different kettle of smoke, as it did not involved people having to pay (possibly thousands of Euro) when implemented.
I dropped off my kids today at the school bus, which is several miles from my house in my 1999 Disco 2. I stopped off behind several rows of waiting busses, Transits, Mercs and bigger Volvos. None were newer than 2004.
Do we ban them all ?
I don't ever remember a time when diesel was a 'clean' fuel...
Regardless of what anyone thinks, Ireland is a 'poor' country in relative terms. I doubt there will ever be a time when private (school) bus contractors start rolling out vehicles less than 2 years old. School bus drivers are generally part timers on very low wages anyway, where is the incentive (or the cash)

Idbatterim

Those snakes are only interested in their mates selling new cars so they can cream off more on vrt and vat. The cost of new cars here v the uk for the “luxury” makes in particular, is laughable! If they are so interested in the environment, ban all petrol or diesel car sales after 2023 or thereabouts, there will be serious range and choice of electric vehicles by then.

Also petrol and diesel motor tax rates should go up a good bit in the next budget, we should be getting people into electric cars if suitable for them , ASAP!

gctest50

It'd have some effect in Dublin :

unkel

professore wrote: »

That's carbon emissions

Indeed. That's why we need to move increasingly quickly over to zero emissions transport. Zero carbon emissions and zero cancerous emissions and zero whatever emissions. Zero emissions.

In China most new city buses are and have been fully electric for years. Closer to home, London, is moving quickly to electric only buses.

FR85

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. That's why we need to move increasingly quickly over to zero emissions transport. Zero carbon emissions and zero cancerous emissions and zero whatever emissions. Zero emissions.

In China most new city buses are and have been fully electric for years. Closer to home, London, is moving quickly to electric only buses.

I was just about to comment on the E Buses in London, Dublin Bus have been slow to look at these and the amount of their buses you spot out on the N7, M4 and M50 doing DPF runs is actually frightening. Yes an element of this may be repositioning buses but they don't have a route to Naas, this has to have an effect on fuel burn thus upping carbon footprints, fuel burns and wages thus is impacting passenger fares.

This is mostly about hitting everyone's pocket. If the VRT wasn't the joke it is there would be very few imports or the need to import. But again they are making too much money off it to really change it.

FR85

Also petrol and diesel motor tax rates should go up a good bit in the next budget, we should be getting people into electric cars if suitable for them , ASAP![/quote]

Prices on petrol and diesel shouldn't budge because as mentioned it'll hike the price of your daily produce and possibly put people out of work in the haulage industry. There are two main costs in transport and they are insurance ( argument for another day!) and fuel. Companies are barely hanging in there and if the fuel prices soar then people will be out of work. Hauliers and bus companies have a world of crap to deal with now such as inspections by the RSA, CPC's, drivers hours, insurance costs and cops/revenue collectors riding them all the way. I think they need to leave fuel alone.

mikeecho

If it's a legal product, then it's important can't be banned.
They could put massive taxes on Diesel imports.

They won't be banned

Irish Steve

I really do have to wonder about some of these claims. The ONLY way we will get zero emission vehicles is when we get an electricity system that is not using oil, or peat, or gas, or any other carbon based fuel, and until that happens, while the vehicle itself may be zero emissions, there will still be (significant) emissions somewhere in the system that produces the power that the thing uses. We also don't have any real information about the carbon footprint of some of the more exotic battery systems that are being introduced to try and improve the range of electric vehicles.

Some of the particle emissions from vehicles have nothing to do with the fuel they use, and everything to do with things like brake linings, clutch linings, and tyres, and while they are not as dangerous as they used to be, since asbestos was removed from brake and clutch linings, there are still things in the dust they produce that you really don't want to be breathing in. In theory, electric vehicles don't need clutches, and the frequency and severity of brake applications should be significantly reduced by using dynamic braking, which will help recharge the battery, but there will still be some emissions.

Perhaps we should be looking to reduce the density of population in our towns? Not really, but this whole can of worms is nothing like as simplistic as some would like us to believe. There are way too many Green agendas that are far from Green when they are looked at a bit more closely, and the wide implications are taken into consideration.

Ash.J.Williams

unkel wrote: »

Not outright, no. Not from a practical and moral point of view. It would not be fair on people who were stimulated to buy diesels by previous governments (because of the chape tax and VRT)

Diesels should not be near lots of people though. I would support a phased in ban of old diesels entering city centres.

Twas the green party I recall

Eric Cartman

I cant wait to be the last person ripping a big dirty v8 4x4 through a city of electric nonsense

nice_guy80

here's what Varadkar had to say

"But bear in mind a huge amount of the carbon that is produced from vehicles is in their production, so actually buying a new car in itself contributes to climate change even before you drive it so you would have to bear that in mind."

we should be looking to either
a buy electric or hybrid
b make older cars run cleaner

Dravokivich

nice_guy80 wrote: »

here's what Varadkar had to say

"But bear in mind a huge amount of the carbon that is produced from vehicles is in their production, so actually buying a new car in itself contributes to climate change even before you drive it so you would have to bear that in mind."

we should be looking to either
a buy electric or hybrid
b make older cars run cleaner

Well, I wash my car about once a month.

Cee-Jay-Cee

unkel wrote: »

Not sure how relevant this is in the light of Brexit - no deal would mean the immediate end of imports anyway as second hand cars would attract both import duty, VRT and VAT when imported, more than deleting any possible profit

Surely cars registered in the UK before the 29th March will have EU tax paid and so not be liable to further VAT, it would only be cars registered after that date that would be liable so it shouldn't effect things greatly for a few years yet.

Regardless of a deal or a no deal brexit, why is there zero information in relation to this from the government? Last year there were 100k cars imported from the UK, if those imports were to suddenly stop then where are people going to get cars from as they aren't available in this country!

zilog_jones

Irish Steve wrote: »

I really do have to wonder about some of these claims. The ONLY way we will get zero emission vehicles is when we get an electricity system that is not using oil, or peat, or gas, or any other carbon based fuel, and until that happens, while the vehicle itself may be zero emissions, there will still be (significant) emissions somewhere in the system that produces the power that the thing uses.

The coal and oil power stations are not in populated areas, and it's much more effective to treat emissions at a large scale power plant than it is on individual cars. The majority of our power is generated from natural gas, which is a hell of a lot cleaner than diesel, and generation from renewables is increasing significantly.

I forget the exact figures, but CO2 per km figures for driving an EV in Ireland (including power transmission losses, etc.) are still lower than any typical ICE car.

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Last year there were 100k cars imported from the UK, if those imports were to suddenly stop then where are people going to get cars from as they aren't available in this country!

Japan And that would also mean next to no diesels.

unkel

Irish Steve wrote: »

The ONLY way we will get zero emission vehicles is when we get an electricity system that is not using oil, or peat, or gas, or any other carbon based fuel

You might not be aware, but most Irish EVs are charged up at night, when a very significant percentage of electricity production is from wind (zero emissions). Currently up to 75%. This is set to increase further in the near future.

monkeybutter

unkel wrote: »

You might not be aware, but most Irish EVs are charged up at night, when a very significant percentage of electricity production is from wind (zero emissions). Currently up to 75%. This is set to increase further in the near future.

up to?

that's a funny stat

what is it really?

let the market takes it course, if they can produce enough leccy cars with a usable range, say 500km the the market will take care of the rest

you'd be mad to buy one with 200-300km range really, once they mature a lot more people will buy them given the running costs

If they can even produce enough in the first place

punisher5112

The 500 SG type buses bought since 2014 put out many times less nox gas then a golf for example.

They will be buying hybrid but these will still be diesel powered.

Thead thing is the UK has been using hybrid buses as far back as 2007 or so.

Here we do it all wrong.

It reminds me of 99 when the buses were bought in a huge batch that were not wheelchair accessible and were from 00.

On the cars I think diesel is going the right way as in people that don't need them or drive enough to get any benefit are moving back to petrol or going hybrid.

josip

unkel wrote: »

You might not be aware, but most Irish EVs are charged up at night, when a very significant percentage of electricity production is from wind (zero emissions). Currently up to 75%. This is set to increase further in the near future.

unkel, can you explain the above a bit more please?
I thought there was less wind in the night time than the day time.
http://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

Old diesel

josip wrote: »

unkel, can you explain the above a bit more please?
I thought there was less wind in the night time than the day time.
http://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

You also use less elextricity at night.

So it's easier for wind to up the percentage.

This is also why night time is a good time to plug in EVs

Philb76

Can't see as many importing from Japan buying blind in a way can't get the ferry to Japan and from reading on here insurance can be an issue plus are the German cars not more popular here

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. That's why we need to move increasingly quickly over to zero emissions transport. Zero carbon emissions and zero cancerous emissions and zero whatever emissions. Zero emissions.

In China most new city buses are and have been fully electric for years. Closer to home, London, is moving quickly to electric only buses.

China, the coal-powered electricity China ?? lolz

Isambard

punisher5112 wrote: »

The 500 SG type buses bought since 2014 put out many times less nox gas then a golf for example.

They will be buying hybrid but these will still be diesel powered.

Thead thing is the UK has been using hybrid buses as far back as 2007 or so.

Here we do it all wrong.

It reminds me of 99 when the buses were bought in a huge batch that were not wheelchair accessible and were from 00.

On the cars I think diesel is going the right way as in people that don't need them or drive enough to get any benefit are moving back to petrol or going hybrid.

as i understand it the UK hybrid buses are not a great success and many have been converted to straight diesel.

Isambard

josip wrote: »

unkel, can you explain the above a bit more please?
I thought there was less wind in the night time than the day time.
http://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

did I read that right? are you really saying there is less wind when it's dark? Maybe I missed a smilie.

zilog_jones

Philb76 wrote: »

Can't see as many importing from Japan buying blind in a way can't get the ferry to Japan and from reading on here insurance can be an issue plus are the German cars not more popular here

I'd imagine personal UK imports are the minority here - most people do not have the inclination to go through all that effort themselves. Loads of dealers are bringing them in, even main dealers!

Insurance is not an issue for normal cars, people who say that were probably trying to insure a Skyline or some nonsense.

German cars exist in Japan too, in fact I've seen several JDM Volkswagens and Audis that have made their way to Ireland. The large majority won't be diesels though.

Old diesel

Back in the late 80s/early 90s there was a lot of normal japanese 2nd hand imports came in.

Usually sold by dealers.

Remember this predated the Internet.

I even remember seeing one Japanese 2nd hand car crowd having a fleet sales person. Presumably to sell low mileage 1.8 diesel Corollas to taxi companies.

So I suspect that replacing UK imports with 2nd hand Japanese imports is doable.

Now whether we want to actually do that is another matter entirely.

You have to in terms of Government policy weight up how much of an issue a shortfall of imports actually is.

josip

josip wrote: »

unkel, can you explain the above a bit more please?
I thought there was less wind in the night time than the day time.
http://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

Isambard wrote: »

did I read that right? are you really saying there is less wind when it's dark? Maybe I missed a smilie.

Here's a smiley

That link it explains why there should be less wind in the night time.
But I've now found more reports saying the opposite.
https://www.llnl.gov/news/power-generation-blowing-wind

Does it vary significantly from location to location?
Perhaps it can be confirmed by some of the Eirgrid/EI boffins here, if there is more or less power generated by wind, per unit time at night time than in the day time?

zilog_jones

There's a big thread about it here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057780021

unkel

galwaytt wrote: »

China, the coal-powered electricity China ?? lolz

The biggest electricity generating plant in the world is in China. And it is hydroelectric (zero emissions)

China also has over 150GW of solar PV installed and about 400GW solar thermal. Zero emissions. Both these figures are more than the rest of the world combined.

Laugh all you like. We are one of the dirty men in this world and not doing anything about it. China is making serious progress. While we in the west are obviously pretty much asleep and largely ignorant of this development.

MrMusician18

Banning the importation of pre 2014 cars will not make much difference to grey imports anyway. 2014 cars are now 5 years old and I would surmise that the majority of grey imports are between 3 and 5 years old. Beyond 5 years, the saving isn't really there to justify the hassle of importing in most cases.

In any case, Nissan Ireland are floating this because they've a vested interest in seeing this happen.

vectra

Great news if it did happen.

vectra

MrMusician18 wrote: »

In any case, Nissan Ireland are floating this because they've a vested interest in seeing this happen.

I think every main dealer in the country would have an interest in seeing this happen to be honest.