How long is long enough on the dole?

handlemaster

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/20-years-on-the-dole-700-people-still-picking-up-benefits-despite-demand-to-look-for-work-37694477.html

Should 5 /10/15/20 years the limit all else been normal with a healthy fit person ?

oceanman

the first dole bashing thread of the new year....congrats:pac:

Fann Linn

Aah, the Indo.

Fiftyfilthy

Fann Linn wrote: »

Aah, the Indo.

6 months is plenty , then you are forced to work for nothing cleaning streets etc and paid by food stamps

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

handlemaster wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/20-years-on-the-dole-700-people-still-picking-up-benefits-despite-demand-to-look-for-work-37694477.html

Should 5 /10/15/20 years the limit all else been normal with a healthy fit person ?

It represents less than 1% of people on the dole. I think that's a great figure.

I strongly suspect that these 700 people are too 'simple' to work, but not 'simple' enough to be institutionalised.

Data Protection ect. but how many of those 700 suffer from a severe form of mental illness. Maybe it's better these people are kept out of the workforce?

MarkHenderson

What a genius idea, a dole thread on boards. Groundbreaking stuff OP.

CrankyHaus

I assume that the figure of 8,633 on the dole for over 10 years is only the tip of the iceberg who have been on it continually.

I suspect that if you included all of those whose period on the live register has been artificially truncated by "training and activation" courses before they go back on the dole then the real figure is far higher.

Ariadne

One day according to many posters on boards.

uck51js9zml2yt

Succubus_ wrote: »

One day according to many posters on boards.

That long.??? Where do I sign up to protest?

Robocop Corcoran

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Data Protection ect. but how many of those 700 suffer from a severe form of mental illness. Maybe it's better these people are kept out of the workforce?

Should they not be on a different payment if they cant work due to a medical condition?

Is mental health covered by the disability allowance?

petes

I was on the dole for four months between jobs after working eight years. They hounded me about looking for work so what are they doing about those fit to work but haven't for twenty-five years.

Fiftyfilthy

petes wrote: »

I was on the dole for four months between jobs after working eight years. They hounded me about looking for work so what are they doing about those fit to work but haven't for twenty-five years.

My friend is 41 and claiming every benefit under the sun. Sent me a text before Xmas delighted with herself as she got “‘me disdability” so she doesn’t have them on her back anymore

Nothing wrong with her, she pretended she is depressed (her words not mine)

So proud she has her own bus pass too

Yet 2x a week she cleans , cash in hand

Just told her she disgusts me

Mrs OBumble

Lots will be on casual dockets, only claiming when they get less than four days work per week.

Mickeroo

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

My friend is 41 and claiming every benefit under the sun. Sent me a text before Xmas delighted with herself as she got “‘me disdability” so she doesn’t have them on her back anymore

Nothing wrong with her, she pretended she is depressed (her words not mine)

So proud she has her own bus pass too

Yet 2x a week she cleans , cash in hand

Just told her she disgusts me

Very loose definition of the word "friend" you got going on there.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

Very loose definition of the word "friend" you got going on there.

The friend sounds like a prime candidate for permanent placement in a labour camp.

realdanbreen

This isn't so much about the dole but I often wondered that seeing most criminals don't hold down a regular job should anyone not in employment be made sign on daily at a local garda station in order to keep track of them?

ednwireland

funny i was watching (the start of) 21 kids and counting last night on ch4 14 kids in the house, guy runs his own business, only beneft was uk child benefit £170 a week, i was expecting them to be on more !

suicide_circus

those figures are very good

Homer

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

My friend is 41 and claiming every benefit under the sun. Sent me a text before Xmas delighted with herself as she got “‘me disdability” so she doesn’t have them on her back anymore

Nothing wrong with her, she pretended she is depressed (her words not mine)

So proud she has her own bus pass too

Yet 2x a week she cleans , cash in hand

Just told her she disgusts me

You’re paying for her lifestyle? I’d call revenue and let them know. Boils my p!ss that sort of carry on.

Deise Vu

We can hardly let people starve or go feral. A tiny percentage of the population unable / unwilling to work is an acceptable price to pay for a functioning society to me.

It is a bit annoying though that they will hound newly redundant people on the basis, I presume, that they are more likely to get work. I know lots of financial people made redundant. They were inundated with 'case reviews' and requests for proof they were looking for work. You might think that's OK but most of them ended up doing courses they had no interest in just to get Social Welfare off their case.

suicide_circus

Deise Vu wrote: »

We can hardly let people starve or go feral. A tiny percentage of the population unable / unwilling to work is an acceptable price to pay for a functioning society to me.

agreed. but those "unable" to work due to physical or mental impairment shouldn't be on a "job seekers" payment

irishrover99

I know plenty that are on the dole more than 20 years.
They have just moved from job seekers to the "sick" either because of drugs or alcohol.
In reality its the same for these life long dolers.
And i'm not taking about genuine sick people.

seamus

I'd be more inclined to look at those 700 and wonder how many are dead or otherwise completely out of the loop, and dodgy family members are collecting their dole.

The vast majority of ID theft is carried out by family members, neighbours and housemates of the victim. It seems to me to be more likely that a 20-year dole claim is ID fraud than someone not being able to find a job.

They have just moved from job seekers to the "sick" either because of drugs or alcohol.

People on permanent disability or who are otherwise unable to work, aren't counted in the unemployment figures.

550sheep

A close acquaintance is a lifer. But it’s very clear why: MENTAL HEALTH

IMO...He’s mildly anxious, depressed, has a social phobia (struggles to talk over the phone to strangers), has no social skills and zero emotional intelligence, childlike, bullies his mother (IMO) and won’t leave the home place, hates women (def. never kissed one), has no friends really. It’s really hard to like him as is and he’s only getting more and more difficult as he gets older. I only talk to him because I feel pity for him. He was bullied very badly growing up and and was always shy and at one time kind. I think even back then he had ADHD, or asbergers or something and even the teachers bullied him and called him stupid in front of the whole class. He’s not simple (he has an MSc he worked hard to get) but he is different and I think his upbringing in Ireland in the 80s/90s damaged him. Bullied all the time because he was different. Is there anything that can help now? I dunno, I think he’s past help and he is who he is now..bitter and twisted and dysfunctional. If he was a 00’s child I think he would have fared better

Trigger Happy

Deise Vu wrote: »

We can hardly let people starve or go feral. A tiny percentage of the population unable / unwilling to work is an acceptable price to pay for a functioning society to me.

It is a bit annoying though that they will hound newly redundant people on the basis, I presume, that they are more likely to get work. I know lots of financial people made redundant. They were inundated with 'case reviews' and requests for proof they were looking for work. You might think that's OK but most of them ended up doing courses they had no interest in just to get Social Welfare off their case.

I was made redundant last year and out of work for three months. I know everyone’s experience is different but mine with the social welfare people was brilliant. Not too much pressure and all supportive etc.
They did seem to be on their game so it does amaze me that there are still people for whom social welfare claiming is their career.

Geuze

Deise Vu wrote: »

We can hardly let people starve or go feral. A tiny percentage of the population unable / unwilling to work is an acceptable price to pay for a functioning society to me.

Except it's not a "tiny percentage of the population".

It's over 100,000 people.

It's impossible to give an exact figure, but many people on JSA / DA / CA / OPF are unwilling to work.

Now, that may actually be a rational decision by them, as the design of the welfare state may penalise them if they take up employment.

So it's not that 100,000+ people are lazy, it's that they don't have enough incentives to work.

Geuze

550sheep wrote: »

A close acquaintance is a lifer. But it’s very clear why: MENTAL HEALTH

IMO...He’s mildly anxious, depressed, has a social phobia (struggles to talk over the phone to strangers), has no social skills and zero emotional intelligence, childlike, bullies his mother (IMO) and won’t leave the home place, hates women (def. never kissed one), has no friends really. It’s really hard to like him as is and he’s only getting more and more difficult as he gets older. I only talk to him because I feel pity for him. He was bullied very badly growing up and and was always shy and at one time kind. I think even back then he had ADHD, or asbergers or something and even the teachers bullied him and called him stupid in front of the whole class. He’s not simple (he has an MSc he worked hard to get) but he is different and I think his upbringing in Ireland in the 80s/90s damaged him. Bullied all the time because he was different. Is there anything that can help now? I dunno, I think he’s past help and he is who he is now..bitter and twisted and dysfunctional. If he was a 00’s child I think he would have fared better

Then he should not be on JSA, as he seems unemployable.

He should be on DA.

begbysback

realdanbreen wrote: »

This isn't so much about the dole but I often wondered that seeing most criminals don't hold down a regular job should anyone not in employment be made sign on daily at a local garda station in order to keep track of them?

Like wtf?

I’d imagine it’s difficult enough being unemployed without being treated like a criminal.

Deise Vu

Geuze wrote: »

Except it's not a "tiny percentage of the population".

It's over 100,000 people.

It's impossible to give an exact figure, but many people on JSA / DA / CA / OPF are unwilling to work.

Now, that may actually be a rational decision by them, as the design of the welfare state may penalise them if they take up employment.

So it's not that 100,000+ people are lazy, it's that they don't have enough incentives to work.

I wish I knew how to post pictures and Gifs. This definitely needs a Will Ferral " That escalated quickly". I thought this thread was about the 700 lifers? 100,000 is not an insignificant percentage of the population but 700 is most definitely.

seamus

begbysback wrote: »

Like wtf?

I’d imagine it’s difficult enough being unemployed without being treated like a criminal.

Of course, it's well documented that people who have to sign on at the Garda station every day never get into trouble.

/s

Fiftyfilthy

Mickeroo wrote: »

Very loose definition of the word "friend" you got going on there.

Yeah , she’s not anymore

topper75

Geuze wrote: »

...
So it's not that 100,000+ people are lazy, it's that they don't have enough incentives to work.

Very well put - that is more like the problem.

Fiftyfilthy

Homer wrote: »

You’re paying for her lifestyle? I’d call revenue and let them know. Boils my p!ss that sort of carry on.

Unfortunately, they won’t bother looking into it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Deise Vu wrote: »

I wish I knew how to post pictures and Gifs. This definitely needs a Will Ferral " That escalated quickly". I thought this thread was about the 700 lifers? 100,000 is not an insignificant percentage of the population but 700 is most definitely.

Basically most people who are long term not working are not claiming the dole but disability.

jmayo

What always gets me in these threads is that there is a quicjk cohort of posters who immediately jump out complaining that other posters are dole bashers.
:rolleyes:

These posters just plain refuse to discuss fact that to some people the dole is a career.
These threads are never talking about people who are made unemployed due to layoffs, redundancies, sickness, etc and thus have fallen on hard times.
We are talking about lifelong dolers who have probably never worked a day in their lives.

Are these posters either one of the above or are they quite happy to subsidise someones elses entire adult working (or in this case non working) life ?

And you will probably find the same posters are excusing a lot of other shytology, that I will not bother name here.

PhuckHugh

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

My friend is 41 and claiming every benefit under the sun. Sent me a text before Xmas delighted with herself as she got “‘me disdability” so she doesn’t have them on her back anymore

Nothing wrong with her, she pretended she is depressed (her words not mine)

So proud she has her own bus pass too

Yet 2x a week she cleans , cash in hand

Just told her she disgusts me

Are imaginary friends real friends these days?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Deise Vu wrote: »

I thought this thread was about the 700 lifers? 100,000 is not an insignificant percentage of the population but 700 is most definitely.

It all depends on how you define "lifer." The article says that 8,633 people have been on the Live Register for more than 10 years. That's roughly equivalent to the population of Tuam.

People had an excuse for being unemployed ten years ago during the financial crisis, but it's harder to make excuses for them in 2019.

Idbatterim

What a joke. And don’t you need to be on it for a certain period to qualify for the Christmas bonus! You couldn’t make up what goes on in this banana republic , other countries penalize you the longer you are on it , here you get rewarded. Free gp visits for the skangers and the working poor next door pay e60 a visit!

GaGa21

There is also a job shortage in rural Ireland. Jobs are aplenty in Dublin and you also have great public transport.
But I know when I finished school, local jobs were scarce and it was usually a case of who you knew that got you one.
I moved to Dublin for work at 18 and recently returned after 20 years and the job situation here is still no better. A lot of the locals here are long term unemployed. And the younger generation leave for cities to work.
The government really needs to invest in rural areas or things will never change.

Fiftyfilthy

PhuckHugh wrote: »

Are imaginary friends real friends these days?

No, I would say they are not

What is your point?

Idbatterim

GaGa21 wrote: »

There is also a job shortage in rural Ireland. Jobs are aplenty in Dublin and you also have great public transport.
But I know when I finished school, local jobs were scarce and it was usually a case of who you knew that got you one.
I moved to Dublin for work at 18 and recently returned after 20 years and the job situation here is still no better. A lot of the locals here are long term unemployed. And the younger generation leave for cities to work.
The government really needs to invest in rural areas or things will never change.

We have great public transport in Dublin ?! Lol! Lol! There is another thread on after hours about the nurses and their pay. The young nurses understandably train and get the hell out of here. Why is it acceptable to pay the wasters a fortune , who have no bargaining power? What are they going to do? Move to another eu country that pays way less welfare lol? But we don’t have the money to keep them here. Fifty percent marginal rate of tax on the working poor etc!

begbysback

Sydney Miniature Taster wrote: »

It all depends on how you define "lifer." The article says that 8,633 people have been on the Live Register for more than 10 years. That's roughly equivalent to the population of Tuam.

People had an excuse for being unemployed ten years ago during the financial crisis, but it's harder to make excuses for them in 2019.

Given that the figure is based off 10 years I think it’s safe to assume the majority in this group would be maybe 40+ and possibly find it more difficult to obtain employment after a number of years out of the workforce?

Will I Am Not

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

My friend is 41 and claiming every benefit under the sun. Sent me a text before Xmas delighted with herself as she got “‘me disdability” so she doesn’t have them on her back anymore

Nothing wrong with her, she pretended she is depressed (her words not mine)

So proud she has her own bus pass too

Yet 2x a week she cleans , cash in hand

Just told her she disgusts me

My brother in law’s wife is on disability allowance... not sure what disability she’s claiming but she’s a personal trainer too.

550sheep

Geuze wrote: »

Then he should not be on JSA, as he seems unemployable.

He should be on DA.

This is obviously correct, but he will continue on JSA indefinitely. I can’t say to him he should be on DA. If he was going to admit to himself he should be he would be on DA already. DSP are trundling along under the current status quo with him for years now. The only hope for him is mental health care interventions...so maybe there is no hope.

Main point is, id say a portion of lifers are in need of compassionate coaching in the very least and actual professional help in most circumstances. It’s been so obvious to me, yet there aren’t the supports there unless you’re full-blown disabled.

Maybe it’s cheaper for the gov. to continue paying JSA. If the disability was recognized then the cost to the state for that extra support would be astronomical by comparison.

jmayo

Sydney Miniature Taster wrote: »

It all depends on how you define "lifer." The article says that 8,633 people have been on the Live Register for more than 10 years. That's roughly equivalent to the population of Tuam.

People had an excuse for being unemployed ten years ago during the financial crisis, but it's harder to make excuses for them in 2019.

Look at the figures for when we truly had a boom in both construction and retail where we are talking about lots of work for unskilled people.
We still had nearly 100k unemployed between 2002 and 2007.

At the same time we were getting in immigrants, not just from new EU states of Eastern Europe but form right round the world to do lots of jobs here.

GaGa21 wrote: »

There is also a job shortage in rural Ireland. Jobs are aplenty in Dublin and you also have great public transport.
But I know when I finished school, local jobs were scarce and it was usually a case of who you knew that got you one.
I moved to Dublin for work at 18 and recently returned after 20 years and the job situation here is still no better. A lot of the locals here are long term unemployed. And the younger generation leave for cities to work.
The government really needs to invest in rural areas or things will never change.

During the cheap credit fueled boom there were lost of jobs in retail and construction near a lot of those rural towns and villages.
Yet you had the lifers sitting on their ar**es drawing the dole and hanging around.

Back in the 80s you still had them when most others who couldn't find work were emigrating.

vintagecosmos

I am quick to blame people for making careers on the dole, however, the systems shouldnt allow it. Poor design leads to exploitation. I have heard of some countries where you need provide rejection letters from job interviews every month in order to keep your allowance. If somone is going to be on it long term, then they should have to jump through hoops.

CrankyHaus

vintagecosmos wrote: »

I am quick to blame people for making careers on the dole, however, the systems shouldnt allow it. Poor design leads to exploitation. I have heard of some countries where you need provide rejection letters from job interviews every month in order to keep your allowance. If somone is going to be on it long term, then they should have to jump through hoops.

I agree with this, However there is a large and well mobilised poverty industry in Ireland that will attack any such reforms as the second coming of Charles Travelyan.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

A couple of years ago I had a friend who was long term unemployed (2006-2019 so far) as well as his partner. This was the year they got 1/2 their Xmas bonus back, when he said to me “and next year it’ll probably be the whole bonus again”. I was really surprised someone would be actually planning/expecting to be still unemployed a year later.

Cody Squeaking Wineglass

Cody Squeaking Wineglass wrote: »

A couple of years ago I had a friend who was long term unemployed (2006-2019 so far) as well as his partner. This was the year they got 1/2 their Xmas bonus back, when he said to me “and next year it’ll probably be the whole bonus again”. I was really surprised someone would be actually planning/expecting to be still unemployed a year later.

When it comes to people who take a systematic approach to scrounging it's not at all surprising to me. 13 years unemployed? I'd have broken his back with hard labour.

LirW

Some people are plain and simple unemployable. What exactly are we supposed to do with them, kick them out and let them rot?
I think everyone knows that a lot of lifers would not find employment even if they tried. No experience, maybe a local reputation, no idea on how to work in a team.
If I'd have a company I'd be VERY hesitant to employ people like that.

Living life like that is miserable, there's no sense of purpose.

A few months ago a girl in her mid 20s moved in, single mother of 2 by 2 dads. Once her lone parent will run out, she'll most likely go on the dole; that girl is absolutely unemployable.
She was sitting in the dark for a few days because she is incapable of changing a lightbulb.
Left school when pregnant and didn't do anything else since because she is incapable to.

But I'd rather have her taken care of by the state instead of people like her going rioting because they starve.

It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

PCeeeee

LirW wrote: »

Some people are plain and simple unemployable. What exactly are we supposed to do with them

We? You can do what you want for the 'unemployable'. I don't owe them a thing.