Build new towns in Dublin

pritchard

The best way to sort 'de housin crysis' is to build houses and end homelessness.

Whether the houses are built by develepors or councils, they need to be built.

When you go out past Swords, Tallaght and Leixlip, a few miles north, south and west of the city, you encounter none other than fields, 19th century derelict buildings, even wasteground!! REMOVE all this!! You don't get ruined farm buildings and fields 2 miles outside NYC, Paris or London.

Expand our capital. Destroy the farms and build continuous developments including affordable housing. Have nothing but residential developments between the city and Balbriggan, Bray and Kilcock.

How's that for a solution, Harris?

pritchard

pritchard wrote: »

The best way to sort 'de housin crysis' is to build houses and end homelessness.

Whether the houses are built by develepors or councils, they need to be built.

When you go out past Swords, Tallaght and Leixlip, a few miles north, south and west of the city, you encounter none other than fields, 19th century derelict buildings, even wasteground!! REMOVE all this!! You don't get ruined farm buildings and fields 2 miles outside NYC, Paris or London.

Expand our capital. Destroy the farms and build continuous developments including affordable housing. Have nothing but residential developments between the city and Balbriggan, Bray and Kilcock.

How's that for a solution, Harris?

You really haven't a clue.

pritchard

The likes of Balgriffin and Clongriffin should be like mini-cities.

Dublin's population might rise to 5m.

pritchard

Deleted User wrote: »

You really haven't a clue.

They can move to the countryside.

minikin

Have you any idea how much food is produced from this land in North County Dublin??? What do you plan on eating instead of the top quality freshly grown fruit and veg?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

You’ll lead us into another famine, you fcukin madman.

kneemos

minikin wrote: »

Have you any idea how much food is produced from this land in North County Dublin??? What do you plan on eating instead of the top quality freshly grown fruit and veg?

Whatever they eat the other nine months.

BrianBoru00

Ok, Ill bite, haven't had this argument in at least three weeks.

No.

Lets take 5000 civil service jobs and deposit them in Sligo, Boyle, Carrick on Shannon, Longford, Mullingar, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Ballyhaunis, Castlerea, Roscommon, Castlebar, Tullamore, Templemore, Portlaoise, Thurles, Enniscorthy, Athy, Carlow and Roscrea.

That's 20 towns with populations from 1500 to 20000.

Within 20 minutes drive of those are thousands of vacant house for sale at prices ranging from 70-80k upwards = AFFORDABLE HOUSING for basically anyone willing to work.
PRIMARY SCHOOLS with loads of space, Secondary schools. All of those towns are on main rail routes - most are located in the northwest which has the slowest growing population.

And that will reduce correspondingly the pressure on Dublins infrastructure taking 10 000 jobs out of the capital and a population of 20 000 out of it.

WIN WIN WIN. . .

minikin

kneemos wrote: »

Whatever they eat the other nine months.

You think the likes of Keelings only produce for 25% of the year??? Glasshouses and polytunnels have been around a long time now in Fingal!

The Crowman

Regional forums are up there centre right OP.

Obvious troll.

mikemac2

pritchard wrote: »

Expand our capital. Destroy the farms and build continuous developments including affordable housing. Have nothing but residential developments between the city and Balbriggan, Bray and Kilcock.

You have no clue. North county Dublin has the most intensively farmed land in the country. Many successful operations there feeding the likes of you and you want them bulldozed

Dillosk412

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Ok, Ill bite, haven't had this argument in at least three weeks.

No.

Lets take 5000 civil service jobs and deposit them in Sligo, Boyle, Carrick on Shannon, Longford, Mullingar, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Ballyhaunis, Castlerea, Roscommon, Castlebar, Tullamore, Templemore, Portlaoise, Thurles, Enniscorthy, Athy, Carlow and Roscrea.

That's 20 towns with populations from 1500 to 20000.

Within 20 minutes drive of those are thousands of vacant house for sale at prices ranging from 70-80k upwards = AFFORDABLE HOUSING for basically anyone willing to work.
PRIMARY SCHOOLS with loads of space, Secondary schools. All of those towns are on main rail routes - most are located in the northwest which has the slowest growing population.

And that will reduce correspondingly the pressure on Dublins infrastructure taking 10 000 jobs out of the capital and a population of 20 000 out of it.

WIN WIN WIN. . .

One word....

Unions.

kneemos

minikin wrote: »

You think the likes of Keelings only produce for 25% of the year??? Glasshouses and polytunnels have been around a long time now in Fingal!

Plenty of unproductive land in the Midlands for pollytunnels and greenhouses.

P_1

Op you really don't have a clue do you

minikin

kneemos wrote: »

Plenty of unproductive land in the Midlands for pollytunnels and greenhouses.

Exactly, It’s unproductive land...
There’s fantasticly rich fertile soil and practices in Fingal - it’s the veg basket of the country for a reason.

Which is more important?
Sustainable high quality food security or having a house within twenty five miles of O’Connell Street?

Raheem Euro

Dillosk412 wrote: »

One word....

Unions.

The Unions are dealing with the state every couple of years trying to negotiate better pay and conditions for their members. So the State should negotiate. It's give and take. The unions don't and shouldn't be allowed to run the country. Wider geographical distribution should be on the table.


We have big industrial relations issues coming up this year with HSE.
A disproportionate number of staff who aren't directly dispensing health care but were hired into a bloated bureacracy by Ahern's govt to try and reach full employment and now can't be removed.



*North County Dublin is some of the richest farm land in the country.

Twenty Grand

Dillosk412 wrote: »

One word....

Unions.

Or, it's been tried before.
And no one wanted to live there back then, and less people want to live there now.

People want to live in cities. They want Dublin, Cork and Galway. Not Carrick on Shannon, Thurles, Mulligar and Athy.

Rural depopulation should be encouraged.

Built high in Dublin. Build on all the waste ground in the city. Take out all the brick cottages in the city centre and develop them. Give Dublin an actual skyline.

Higher population density means cheaper and better services.

Atoms for Peace

Our very own mega city one, great.

Mad_maxx

minikin wrote: »

Have you any idea how much food is produced from this land in North County Dublin??? What do you plan on eating instead of the top quality freshly grown fruit and veg?

Yes because only north Dublin has land to grow vegetables

Twenty Grand

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Yes because only north Dublin has land to grow vegetables

There are much bigger problems with this idea than losing agricultural land.

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Our very own mega city one, great.

Even if every man woman and child on the island lived in Dublin, it would still be smaller than London.

minikin

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Yes because only north Dublin has land to grow vegetables

You’re missing the point - it’s the BEST land for growing veg in the country... that’s why the industry has succeeded there and become a massive exporter too.

What’s more beneficial to a healthy society... more concrete or more nuitricious food?

Mad_maxx

Twenty Grand wrote: »

There are much bigger problems with this idea than losing agricultural land.



Even if every man woman and child on the island lived in Dublin, it would still be smaller than London.

Such as?

BrianBoru00

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Or, it's been tried before.
And no one wanted to live there back then, and less people want to live there now.

People want to live in cities. They want Dublin, Cork and Galway. Not Carrick on Shannon, Thurles, Mulligar and Athy.

Rural depopulation should be encouraged.

Built high in Dublin. Build on all the waste ground in the city. Take out all the brick cottages in the city centre and develop them. Give Dublin an actual skyline.

Higher population density means cheaper and better services.

Eh, NO, it hasn't been tried before - there was a half baked attempt and a pandering to unions as part of a piecemeal + populist approach to problems.

There are a lot more than 5000 civil servants that would quite happily move back home to their home towns.

And I'd wager that even more want to live their now given the cost of housing in Dublin.

Building another 5000 houses in Dublin won't actually solve the housing crisis as its ignoring the multitude of other problems including the fact the current infrastructure isn't fit for purpose.

and you are suggesting that we move 99% of the population to Dublin, Cork and Galway (which has by the way a far worse traffic problem thatn Dublin) ? ? ?

Guy:Incognito

Definitely the way to put yor plan across as rational is to use language like destroy........

Twenty Grand

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Eh, NO, it hasn't been tried before - there was a half baked attempt and a pandering to unions as part of a piecemeal + populist approach to problems.

There are a lot more than 5000 civil servants that would quite happily move back home to their home towns.

And I'd wager that even more want to live their now given the cost of housing in Dublin.

Building another 5000 houses in Dublin won't actually solve the housing crisis as its ignoring the multitude of other problems including the fact the current infrastructure isn't fit for purpose.

and you are suggesting that we move 99% of the population to Dublin, Cork and Galway (which has by the way a far worse traffic problem thatn Dublin) ? ? ?

Is there really?
And you would be able to relocate these people back to their home town? So a civil servant from Borrisoleigh would be relocated to Borrisoleigh and they'd be happy to move back, away from their friends, social circles and services offered in Dublin, while maintaining the same level of efficiency in their work?

Bullshxt.
It was half baked because no one wanted to move and it made zero sense. Your idea is no different Anyone living in Dublin with a spouse, kids and a mortgage doesn't want to move back to Carlow, Kerry or Leitrim.

Here's the proof: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-decentralisation-debacle-1.646870?mode=amp


Where are you getting 99%. Sure 20% live in county Dublin already and another 20% in the next 8 largest cities and towns.

Dirtdrifter

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Ok, Ill bite, haven't had this argument in at least three weeks.

No.

Lets take 5000 civil service jobs and deposit them in Sligo, Boyle, Carrick on Shannon, Longford, Mullingar, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Ballyhaunis, Castlerea, Roscommon, Castlebar, Tullamore, Templemore, Portlaoise, Thurles, Enniscorthy, Athy, Carlow and Roscrea.

That's 20 towns with populations from 1500 to 20000.

Within 20 minutes drive of those are thousands of vacant house for sale at prices ranging from 70-80k upwards = AFFORDABLE HOUSING for basically anyone willing to work.
PRIMARY SCHOOLS with loads of space, Secondary schools. All of those towns are on main rail routes - most are located in the northwest which has the slowest growing population.

And that will reduce correspondingly the pressure on Dublins infrastructure taking 10 000 jobs out of the capital and a population of 20 000 out of it.

WIN WIN WIN. . .

Primary schools don't have loads of space elsewhere

Not unless they extend and hire staff

Mrs OBumble

minikin wrote: »

Sustainable high quality food security or having a house within twenty five miles of O’Connell Street?

I thought our economy was going to be f*cked with Brexit, 'cos we lose the main market for food we produce?

LirW

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Is there really?
And you would be able to relocate these people back to their home town? So a civil servant from Borrisoleigh would be relocated to Borrisoleigh and they'd be happy to move back, away from their friends, social circles and services offered in Dublin, while maintaining the same level of efficiency in their work?

Bullshxt.
It was half baked because no one wanted to move and it made zero sense. Your idea is no different Anyone living in Dublin with a spouse, kids and a mortgage doesn't want to move back to Carlow, Kerry or Leitrim.

Here's the proof: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-decentralisation-debacle-1.646870?mode=amp


Where are you getting 99%. Sure 20% live in county Dublin already and another 20% in the next 8 largest cities and towns.

I'm always wondering, on one hand people go on about how nobody wants to work in smaller civil service offices that are in smaller towns, on the other hand the transfer waiting lists are absolutely bursting and the competition for CO/EO competitions in every county are hugely popular because the roles are in high demand.

Himself was just granted moving office to Wexford, which cuts his commute to half and if we decide to move down the line, Wexford is still quite affordable. It probably was the best thing to happen to us in the last few years.

BrianBoru00

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Is there really?
And you would be able to relocate these people back to their home town? So a civil servant from Borrisoleigh would be relocated to Borrisoleigh and they'd be happy to move back, away from their friends, social circles and services offered in Dublin, while maintaining the same level of efficiency in their work?

Bullshxt.
It was half baked because no one wanted to move and it made zero sense. Your idea is no different Anyone living in Dublin with a spouse, kids and a mortgage doesn't want to move back to Carlow, Kerry or Leitrim.

Here's the proof: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-decentralisation-debacle-1.646870?mode=amp


Where are you getting 99%. Sure 20% live in county Dublin already and another 20% in the next 8 largest cities and towns.

an article in a newspaper does not constitute proof but https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/more-than-700-civil-servants-apply-to-leave-dublin-1.3381284

so over 20 times as many people want to move OUT of Dublin as wants to move IN to Dublin. . .

Your response is typical of the lack of genuine will or effort to make genuine long lasting change. Of course you Secretary general on over 100k in a permanent job married to a PO on 90k they are happy out and its them making decisions.
But what about the couple who are out of college4 in their early twenties and have a combined salary of 60k?

If you build it they will come - and yes it will mean that someone from Borrisoleigh will have the opportunity to move back there because there are 4-5 different departments within 15-50 minutes commute of their new home.
Many of them maintain friends down the country too you know. and social circles change for the most part, PARTICULARLY when raising children

Where I'm getting 99%? Well I assume when you said de populate rural Ireland and move people to Dublin, Cork and Galway you were going to be magnanimous enough to allow a small cohort remain to farm and fish and maintain forestry?

Dirtdrifter

Dublin is choked up

Down the country schools are full, GP surgeries are full,no spare capacity in hospitals

I'm sure there's more,it's not simply a matter of transplanting workers

RobbingBandit

Go plant a flag OP,

This land is my land this lands not your land you come near my land I've got a six gauge I'll disolve ye and feed it to my lambs come out here and you'll be a missing man.

LirW

Dirtdrifter wrote: »

Dublin is choked up

Down the country schools are full, GP surgeries are full,no spare capacity in hospitals

I'm sure there's more,it's not simply a matter of transplanting workers

There's no capacity in any hospital in the country, doesn't matter where you go. Same with GP surgeries but once you move to an area there is usually a GP assigned to and once you relocate they will take you in, more so if you're not holding a medical card.
The local GP took our whole family, they just wouldn't take people who'd like to switch from GPs in surrounding villages.
Same with schools, in a 10k radius here are at least 6 primary and 1 secondary, every single primary offered to take my child, I picked the one with the best reputation and a convenient drive.

Might be anecdotal evidence.

Mad_maxx

minikin wrote: »

You’re missing the point - it’s the BEST land for growing veg in the country... that’s why the industry has succeeded there and become a massive exporter too.

What’s more beneficial to a healthy society... more concrete or more nuitricious food?

That's as much to do with traditional cultural practices and proximity to a large population as anything else, no problem transporting food nowadays, land in plenty of other counties is every bit as suitable for growing veg, meath, louth, carlow, kilkenny, Cork etc

BrianBoru00

Dirtdrifter wrote: »

Primary schools don't have loads of space elsewhere

Not unless they extend and hire staff

Yes, they DO have space elsewhere in all of these rural villages that are dying and schools are fighting to stay open because they have 11 pupils despite having 4 classrooms built at a time when they did have the population.

Twenty Grand

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

an article in a newspaper does not constitute proof but https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/more-than-700-civil-servants-apply-to-leave-dublin-1.3381284

All good points but I don't believe you'll ever be able to match the supply of available housing and services in rural areas, with the number of civil servants who want to move there, with the relocation of specific departments to a commutable distance.
Fair enough if 700 people want to move, but if there's no jobs to move to, or jobs are in insuitable locations, then you may not as well bother .

Dillosk412

Is something like this not being planned? Called National Planning Framework

Creating major urban hubs that other towns can feed into.

The biggest obstacles are local politicians who want everything in their backyard.

It corrects the errors of the failed plan from the 90's and accepts that the emphasis should be on regional cities rather than push civil servants into small towns.

If regional cities succeed, then a lot of support businesses spring up naturally in surrounding areas.

All they need to do is to get the village politicians to understand this. And that's not easy.

orourkeda1977

pritchard wrote: »

The best way to sort 'de housin crysis' is to build houses and end homelessness.

Whether the houses are built by develepors or councils, they need to be built.

When you go out past Swords, Tallaght and Leixlip, a few miles north, south and west of the city, you encounter none other than fields, 19th century derelict buildings, even wasteground!! REMOVE all this!! You don't get ruined farm buildings and fields 2 miles outside NYC, Paris or London.

Expand our capital. Destroy the farms and build continuous developments including affordable housing. Have nothing but residential developments between the city and Balbriggan, Bray and Kilcock.

How's that for a solution, Harris?

No sh1t.

BrianBoru00

Twenty Grand wrote: »

All good points but I don't believe you'll ever be able to match the supply of available housing and services in rural areas, with the number of civil servants who want to move there, with the relocation of specific departments.
Fair enough if 700 people want to move, but if there's no jobs to move to, or jobs are in insuitaboe locations, then you may not as well bother .

I know its a chicken and egg scenario but there needs to be (and I know how incompetent decision makers really are) genuine forward thinking with a degree of prototyping and decision made by working with the likes of engineers working day to day in county councils, local gardai, nurses, and other front line staff instead of leaving it in the hands of "Principal officers and assistant principals or higher who have to date who as the article you linked are making decisions based on themselves and their own personal situations instead of whats best for the country as a whole.


How much money has been spent on "Westontrack"?

While it s a noble idea no politician in the west has come out and say : No, Its not feasible. they will continue to retain votes by saying the right thing. But by putting government jobs into towns along the route and increasing the population of those towns then maybe it would be feasible to look at re-opening those lines.

Paulzx

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Eh, NO, it hasn't been tried before - there was a half baked attempt and a pandering to unions as part of a piecemeal + populist approach to problems.

?

I would suggest that pandering to the local loyalties of politicians was as much at fault for the previous half baked decentralisation plan than any input from trade unions.

The politicians sewed up the goodies i.e jobs for their own towns and the cancellation og the whole project in 2012 was an indication of how badly planned it originally was.

There is an argument to be made to create large departments in decent sized regional towns in order to move state bodies. However, they should be in decent population centers and Departments should not be spread piecemeal all over the place in small offices.

The main chunk of the civil servcie that is involved directly with government policy and supporting the elected body has no place anywhere except in Dublin

orourkeda1977

I have a very limited knowledge of how planning works and this post will probably highlight that very clearly but here goes.

Every decade we take a census in Ireland.

Part of the reason for this is that the information gained is used to identify statistical trends. These statistical trends can then be used to aid more efficient and effective planning.

Hospitals, schools, housing, public transport, pensions and general infrastructure (among a whole host of other issues) are supposed to be improved on the basis of the information obtained.

What is it about Irish planning that has been lacking? We have a housing and homelessness crisis, record numbers on hospital trolleys and an education system creaking at the seams.

Whats going on?

mikemac2

Dirtdrifter wrote: »

Dublin is choked up

Down the country schools are full, GP surgeries are full,no spare capacity in hospitals

I'm sure there's more,it's not simply a matter of transplanting workers

Hospitals yes but schools no

Rural schools want students. Some push to attract students because if they have enough numbers they get an extra teacher

You have your pick of schools! The schools want you to move to the area

4068ac1elhodqr

Nevermind new towns, build a new 'green-eco city', and way out in the middle of nowhere - ideally close to the geographical centre of the Island.
It can also be used as a central distribution hub for the country, seeing as all the largest towns are already around the coasts.

suicide_circus

can't wait for Dublin as a dystopian megacity

everywhere outside the pale is the badlands

road_high

Build upwards on the land that is already Dublin and you’d have more than enough space. The problem is that Dublin is already too sprawled and low density as it is.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

You’ll lead us into another famine, you fcukin madman.

increasing the population, even if it is through densification, requires more farmland. Same result

Twenty Grand

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

What is it about Irish planning that has been lacking? We have a housing and homelessness crisis, record numbers on hospital trolleys and an education system creaking at the seams.

Whats going on?

Lots and lots of conflating factors.

Regarding housing, there's a huge move to large urban centres and huge rural depopulation in the last decade.
Before the recession there were plenty of businesses and factories in rural towns that directly and indirectly supported the locals.
Most of these are gone now.
So there's a huge push to the cities, where nearly all of the high paying, skilled jobs are located.

Add in increase in population, plus immigration, plus more third level students, plus better standard of living and services, plus no houses built in the last decade and you have a housing crisis.

lawred2

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Ok, Ill bite, haven't had this argument in at least three weeks.

No.

Lets take 5000 civil service jobs and deposit them in Sligo, Boyle, Carrick on Shannon, Longford, Mullingar, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Ballyhaunis, Castlerea, Roscommon, Castlebar, Tullamore, Templemore, Portlaoise, Thurles, Enniscorthy, Athy, Carlow and Roscrea.

That's 20 towns with populations from 1500 to 20000.

Within 20 minutes drive of those are thousands of vacant house for sale at prices ranging from 70-80k upwards = AFFORDABLE HOUSING for basically anyone willing to work.
PRIMARY SCHOOLS with loads of space, Secondary schools. All of those towns are on main rail routes - most are located in the northwest which has the slowest growing population.

And that will reduce correspondingly the pressure on Dublins infrastructure taking 10 000 jobs out of the capital and a population of 20 000 out of it.

WIN WIN WIN. . .

Yeah that's been tried. And failed.

Simply speaking not enough people will be motivated to leave Dublin for these nomark nothing ever happening towns. Only way this can be achieved is by slowly managing the move of departments by replacing retiring or leaving staff in Dublin with a staffer in the new office.

Dublin to Bally effin Haunis lol

Beasty

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Go plant a flag OP,

Why not send a mission to claim Mars - plant the flag there and make it into a penal colony

We can then turn the prisons into flats

Everyone wins

Dirtdrifter

road_high wrote: »

Build upwards on the land that is already Dublin and you’d have more than enough space. The problem is that Dublin is already too sprawled and low density as it is.

Must be drones or earthquakes that prevents us building up

LirW

lawred2 wrote: »

Yeah that's been tried. And failed.

Simply speaking not enough people will be motivated to leave Dublin for these nomark nothing ever happening towns. Only way this can be achieved is by slowly managing the move of departments by replacing retiring or leaving staff in Dublin with a staffer in the new office.

Dublin to Bally effin Haunis lol

The interest in moving to another office seems to be somehow tied to the house places around. Last time the decentralisation was tried people were able to borrow for a mansion in Dublin and another family home in the back garden for their cat.
Existing staff now definitely shows plenty of interest to move, himself works with a few lads that just started in the last few months but expressed interest to move to one of the other offices because they want to buy or already bought elsewhere where the pay gets you a lot further. The transfer lists are packed.
Interestingly, plenty of people starting as CO or EO are in their age where they have families themselves, so people of all ages feel the desire of moving out because it could be their last shot of buying.