Rural broadband myth

Bella Doyle

There is this myth being pushed by the media that super fast fiber broadband in rural Ireland will mean that everyone will be able to set up a rival to Amazon.com from their spare room. The reality is the vast majority of people in rural Ireland will only sign up to fiber to get better Netflix, mind you lots of people are already happy with the wireless service they have, which is why take up of eirs rural fiber broadband where it's available is so low

topper75

The fiber is priced rather stiffly. You'd want to be running a good home business to justify it. I couldn't justify it for leisure use.

gctest50

Bella Doyle wrote: »

There is this myth being pushed by the media that super fast fiber broadband in rural Ireland will mean that everyone will be able to set up a rival to Amazon.com from their spare room.

The reality is the vast majority of people in rural Ireland will only sign up to fiber to get better Netflix, mind you lots of people are already happy with the wireless service they have, which is why take up of eirs rural fiber broadband where it's available is so low

There is nothing stopping ya, except you

If you are the type that moans, you'll never make it

You will fail, just like you deserve to

Colonel Claptrap

I would move to the countryside in a heartbeat if I was guaranteed excellent fibre broadband.

I would work from home 3/4 days a week then make the long commute to Dublin for the other 1/2 days.

There are no jobs in my area of specialty in the West of Ireland. If I could move my job West, by working from home, I'd be delighted.

I'd say I'm not alone in thinking this.

mikhail

You don't need to set up Amazon to make something worthwhile. There are lots of decent reasons to build that infrastructure, like SMEs looking for a competitive (i.e. cheap) place to locate, remote workers, or providing for stuff that's in the pipeline (like remote healthcare).

BeerWolf

Wireless, yeah my 1-2MB download speeds are awesome....!

Come 5G that might get bumped up to 5MB. :rolleyes:

Oh, let's not forget the rather restrictive allowances on wireless...

And I live just 20 minutes away from Dublin, north side...

What was the point of this thread again?

gandalf

I don't think the reason behind rural broadband is setting up a Irish Amazon. It will allow people to work from home though and the trend is that more and more companies are looking to move out of valuable premises in the cities (Dublin) to small locations outside the city with shared deskspaces and allow their workers have the option to work from home a few days a week. I know I have that option and it's great to have it.

The up side for the companies is they can cash in on a valuable asset if the own the building or reduce their outgoings if they are renting it. For the employees it gives them more flexibility and improves their quality of life.

For it to be deliverable there needs to be access to a fast reliable internet connection.

my3cents

I thought the myth was that there was broadband in rural Ireland. We've certainly not got it.

ednwireland

It might not allow you to setup the next amaz o n but it will allow you to work from home. Video conference with colleagues. Hook into the ip phone system so it's like your at your desk and calls can be patched through etc etc.
Basically that's what providing this infrastructure will allow you can't do it on 1 or 2 mb connections.

Cockford Ollie

With 5G coming and plenty of other viable wireless technologies like Fixed Wireless Access, fiber to every home is crazy and crazy expensive.

Money should be used to invest in wireless technology, providing minimum connection speed and very low contention.

I worked in one of the biggest IT companies in the world and the internal network speed, between VPNs and and centralised servers, was very average. Probably maxed out at 15mpbs on most days. What rural companies need 1000mbps for I don't know.

2011

Bella Doyle wrote: »

There is this myth being pushed by the media that super fast fiber broadband in rural Ireland will mean that everyone will be able to set up a rival to Amazon.com from their spare room.

You are clearly living in the past. Not having access to broadband makes it difficult to operate many modern businesses.

Also as an employee I could work a few days a week from home if my broadband was up to it. Also why should I be denied Netflix in the evening just because I don’t live in the big smoke?

lots of people are already happy with the wireless service they have

Complete b0ll0cks

Seth Brundle

Bella Doyle wrote: »

There is this myth being pushed by the media that super fast fiber broadband in rural Ireland will mean that everyone will be able to set up a rival to Amazon.com from their spare room. The reality is the vast majority of people in rural Ireland will only sign up to fiber to get better Netflix, mind you lots of people are already happy with the wireless service they have, which is why take up of eirs rural fiber broadband where it's available is so low

Rural folk just want higher quality pr0n!
Self relief is a human right that is being denied by the government.

Graces7

my3cents wrote: »

I thought the myth was that there was broadband in rural Ireland. We've certainly not got it.

where are you? here in darkest offshore west mayo I have broadband. small local firm. before that in other rural areas, digiweb.

Of course there is broadband and broadband,

BeerWolf

ednwireland wrote: »

It might not allow you to setup the next amaz o n but it will allow you to work from home. Video conference with colleagues. Hook into the ip phone system so it's like your at your desk and calls can be patched through etc etc.
Basically that's what providing this infrastructure will allow you can't do it on 1 or 2 mb connections.

Feels like we''re still in this phase with how it's being handled;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A81IwlDeV6c

my3cents

2011 wrote: »

....


Complete b0ll0cks

Depends on your use, fiber has come to within half a mile of me (then stopped :rolleyes:) and people I know using Wireless connections (not mobile broadband) are happy with the service and won't be going for fiber at twice the price.

gandalf

Cockford Ollie wrote: »

With 5G coming and plenty of other viable wireless technologies like Fixed Wireless Access, fiber to every home is crazy and crazy expensive.

Money should be used to invest in wireless technology, providing minimum connection speed and very low contention.

I worked in one of the biggest IT companies in the world and the internal network speed, between VPNs and and centralised servers, was very average. Probably maxed out at 15mpbs on most days. What rural companies need 1000mbps for I don't know.

Fibre to every home is never going to happen. We have too many one offs but Fibre to hubs with wireless from those hubs is an option. The more options we have the better. We are competing on a global stage and unfortunately one area that we have lagged behind on is our communications infrastructure because of the short sighted way that Telecom Eireann/Eircom/Eir was sold off and then allowed to fester between various different owners.

If we are going to make it attractive for FDI to set up businesses outside of the crowded confines of the greater Dublin area we need to have the infrastructure to support them and having broadband for as much of the country as possible is a must have (wireless or fixed line).

I live in Dublin but I see the need to spread out businesses across the country. Dublin is choking to death because of congestion and inflated property prices. Anything that makes it attractive for the MNC's to locate outside of Dublin should be given a priority at Government and Local levels.

TomSweeney

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

Graces7

TomSweeney wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

I am with westnet
http://www.westnet.ie/

http://www.westnet.ie/packages/

Bob Harris

TomSweeney wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

We see what you did there, Tom.

Bella Doyle

irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/low-rural-broadband-take-up-rate-alarms-government-1.3691397%3fmode=ampd

Cockford Ollie

TomSweeney wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

In Laois, aptus offer FWA
http://aptus.ie

100mbps, 50mbps, 20mbps packages.

monkeybutter

This is clearly optics

Plus price gouging

these are the most commercially viable customers so no doubt are already the best connected, within 3k of an exchange

so why pay double for something they don't necessarily need right now

this is long term

connecting individual houses is a piece of piss, it's just throwing a bit of cable in

JohnnyFlash

Give the ESB a load of money to roll fibre out to every substation and then use wireless tech to solve the last mile issue.

2011

my3cents wrote: »

Depends on your use, fiber has come to within half a mile of me (then stopped :rolleyes:) and people I know using Wireless connections (not mobile broadband) are happy with the service and won't be going for fiber at twice the price.

There will always be a few exceptions, but they are a tiny minority.


In rural areas wireless broadband generally is extremely slow and very unreliable. Speeds can be so slow that pages won't load and card machines in shops time out.

2011

TomSweeney wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

We waited around 5 years for fibre. Eventually Eir installed the cabinet at the entrance of our estate. They told us that they would hook us up "within a few weeks". That was around 8 years ago. What a pack of w@nkers!


Since that Eir have attempted to sell people in our estate 3mbs which in reality is less than 1mbs. Not many takers as you can imagine. Instead most go for a wireless service that is expensive, unreliable and provides around 5mbs on average (when it works).

zapitastas

Cockford Ollie wrote: »

With 5G coming and plenty of other viable wireless technologies like Fixed Wireless Access, fiber to every home is crazy and crazy expensive.

Money should be used to invest in wireless technology, providing minimum connection speed and very low contention.

I worked in one of the biggest IT companies in the world and the internal network speed, between VPNs and and centralised servers, was very average. Probably maxed out at 15mpbs on most days. What rural companies need 1000mbps for I don't know.

What magical wireless services are these that can provide a viable solution? 5g will be terrific in urban areas but forget about it once outside the town boundaries.

TomSweeney

Graces7 wrote: »

I am with westnet
http://www.westnet.ie/

http://www.westnet.ie/packages/

20Mb-100Mb depending on location hmmm.


Can you do a speedtest and post the results ?



www.speedtest.net

Cockford Ollie

zapitastas wrote: »

What magical wireless services are these that can provide a viable solution? 5g will be terrific in urban areas but forget about it once outside the town boundaries.

I said already, fixed wireless access. There are many other high capacity wireless technologies, like line of sight peer to peer.

I get 60mbps on 4G in the middle of nowhere in the south east.

I drive across the country regularly and with Android Auto I see the LTE icon in most places.

Money wasted on rural fiber should be invested in better wireless coverage.

monkeybutter

it's called line of sight, if you have it great, if you don't good luck

ChippingSodbury

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I would move to the countryside in a heartbeat if I was guaranteed excellent fibre broadband.

I would work from home 3/4 days a week then make the long commute to Dublin for the other 1/2 days.

There are no jobs in my area of specialty in the West of Ireland. If I could move my job West, by working from home, I'd be delighted.

I'd say I'm not alone in thinking this.

Go for it! I moved to Sligo almost 5 years ago from Dublin. Best place to:

• Golf
• Mountainbike
• Surf
• Sail
• Swim
• Hillclimb/ Walk
• Bring up kids

Live in/ near the town and there is plenty of fibre broadband around.

Don't be one of the ones who will lie on their deathbed saying "If only I..."
https://twitter.com/i/status/1052844057666494464

banie01

gctest50 wrote: »

There is nothing stopping ya, except you

If you are the type that moans, you'll never make it

You will fail, just like you deserve to

So you're saying I need a garage?
Bollocks!

monkeybutter

4/5g just wont do it

unless you have massive number of masts

if you are connecting to that one mast and it has a certain throughput and 1 other person connects, well it's halved, 4 quartered

it's fine for light use

that's why most wireless providers have restrictive caps

you might get an LTE icon but it might not be usable at all

banana_bear

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I would move to the countryside in a heartbeat if I was guaranteed excellent fibre broadband.

I would work from home 3/4 days a week then make the long commute to Dublin for the other 1/2 days.

I'm the last person who wants to raise a point against bringing fast broadband to every home, but you don't need "excellent fibre" broadband to work from home. You need RELIABLE broadband to work from home. Any crappy DSL line from eir or sky with 5MBit is enough, as long as it's solid (no outages and a constant latency < 50ms).

A Citrix or Remote Desktop connection uses less than 0.5MBit/s, and even if you work on your local PC directly accessing resources (files, mails, phone etc) from a VPN from your office, you'll be happy with 5MB/s. As long as the latency is low and the line is solid.

There's a huge difference between "running a business from home" (including servers in that location) and "accessing work ressources from home".

I'm working from home since 6 years. All the time I had a line of sight connection from Wicklow Broadband, which costs an arm and a leg (90.- for 12MBit/s) but generally is rock solid. I used to have both a DSL (eir, sky) and a 4g (Three) backup, but both of these were less reliable than the WBB line. DSL was down a lot, latency was all over the place, and 4G was a complete and utter lottery in terms of speeds. Both might of course be related to the area I live in, the infrastructure doesn't look like it has gotten any love for decades.

monkeybutter

Would ya move for it though

that's the difference

I wanted the life of a country bumpkin myself and just couldn't get past the terrible/no broadband you would have

The problem with wireless is what do ya do, ask the seller if you can get them to do a line of sight from their property to check before you buy, maybe

ArrBee

banana_bear wrote: »

I'm the last person who wants to raise a point against bringing fast broadband to every home, but you don't need "excellent fibre" broadband to work from home. You need RELIABLE broadband to work from home. Any crappy DSL line from eir or sky with 5MBit is enough, as long as it's solid (no outages and a constant latency < 50ms).

A Citrix or Remote Desktop connection uses less than 0.5MBit/s, and even if you work on your local PC directly accessing resources (files, mails, phone etc) from a VPN from your office, you'll be happy with 5MB/s. As long as the latency is low and the line is solid.

There's a huge difference between "running a business from home" (including servers in that location) and "accessing work ressources from home".

I'm working from home since 6 years. All the time I had a line of sight connection from Wicklow Broadband, which costs an arm and a leg (90.- for 12MBit/s) but generally is rock solid. I used to have both a DSL (eir, sky) and a 4g (Three) backup, but both of these were less reliable than the WBB line. DSL was down a lot, latency was all over the place, and 4G was a complete and utter lottery in terms of speeds. Both might of course be related to the area I live in, the infrastructure doesn't look like it has gotten any love for decades.

What about when you are computing locally with large remote data sets?
What about compile and content manage large amounts of data?
What about using locally store iso as remote media?
etc, etc.

Yes there are many use cases today that perform well on relatively slow but stable connections, but that will become less true over time.

And that's the issue I see a lot of people forgetting.
It's not just about watching netfilx and being happy with what you have (I don't even have good enough internet for netflix), it's about being able to use services that are coming down the line.

Wireless needs constant updating to keep in step with technology not to mention a massive investment in backhaul and cell/mast infrastructure and over a period of time is likely to cost more than just doing it right.

Sure, why build motorways when we have N roads?

gnf_ireland

The reasons for fibre connectivity may not be evident to all now, but the world is changing and in 5-10 years, digital connectivity will be seen as a vital service. Yes there will always be a number of people who choose not to avail of it - but that number will dwindle over time.

I live and work in Dublin, and can avail of virgin media broadband. It allows me work at home 1-2 days a week, and I have a relatively short commute. Think of it as my way of reducing carbon taxes. Traffic in Dublin is gridlock, and the likes of Galway are even worse. Add to that the cost of accommodation etc. Dublin cannot continue the way it is - it is simply not sustainable and something major needs to be done.

I know a large chunk of people who would relocate to the country, especially once they hit their 30's and are settling down and having families. But for this to work it needs companies to locate there. This is not an easy ask without proper infrastructure. There of course are a few, with Fexco being the standout one in my mind, although no doubt a few more at this stage.

If we think of the bigger picture, digital infrastructure is essential and has the ability to transform Ireland completely. It has huge benefits in terms of decentralisation away from Dublin, alleviate pressures on housing in Dublin, not to mention reduce our carbon footprint. There are so many benefits, and while it would be a once off cost, it offers huge potential to change Ireland for the better.

But fibre is only an enabler on this change, and it will take 10-20 years for it to reap its full rewards. It is one of the few times I am actually surprised the government is taking a long term view and looking to be a leader/visionary in something. The last time I was as impressed was when they put the tax on plastic bags, or the smoking ban !!

And there are other countries looking at doing National Broadband Plans as well... we are not unique in it, although further along the road..

banana_bear

ArrBee wrote: »

What about when you are computing locally with large remote data sets?
What about compile and content manage large amounts of data?
What about using locally store iso as remote media?

What about them? 99% of all jobs that are done in the office and where you "could work from home" are done by the way of connecting to a local machine and working from there. I work as a software dev and DBA and juggle dozens of gigabytes around, but why would I do that on my local machine? I connect to my company managed PC (physical in my case, but might as well be virtualized) which is 2000km away from where I live, and the only thing going back and forth is display and input.

Again, the scenarios you list above might exist, but the vast majority of office jobs don't involve your computer in your home office to do any more work than to be a stupid terminal. It would be a nightmare for HQ IT to manage these machines, and it doesn't make any sense for all but a few far fetched scenarios.

Also, talking about future: The future is virtualisation. Many companies are already virtualising their workstations, which means the computer that is used on premise is nothing more than a dumb terminal. The future is definitely not to decentralise and to have computers at home do all the work while moving gigabytes of data up and down.

ArrBee wrote: »

Sure, why build motorways when we have N roads?

I wrote it in my previous post, but I'll gladly say it again: I'm the first person to line up for fiber speed broadband, and I'm well aware that a cable is ALWAYS better than a wireless connection.

I was only responding to the comment "oh I'd love to move to the countryside and work from home, but I can't because there's no fiber there". Which is just not a valid point, at all.

Graces7

TomSweeney wrote: »

20Mb-100Mb depending on location hmmm.


Can you do a speedtest and post the results ?



www.speedtest.net

I am on the residential package only

http://www.westnet.ie/packages/residential/2/##

http://www.speedtest.net/result/7895477218

gnf_ireland

banana_bear wrote: »

I was only responding to the comment "oh I'd love to move to the countryside and work from home, but I can't because there's no fiber there". Which is just not a valid point, at all.

I agree with this comment. There is plenty of rural Ireland which is covered by the openeir 300k, all getting FTTH. The coverage map is clearly available at https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout-map/

If someone is looking to move to the country, and are looking to buy there, they can easily select a location served by up to 1GB broadband coverage if they need it.

The challenge is more for the people currently living in the areas not covered by the openeir 300k. They simply cannot easily move to get fibre.


But that said, for remote working to be more commonplace, there is a mind shift required within senior management of most companies. They simply are not there yet when it comes to trusting staff to work remotely, or having the work practices & environment to support it. This will change, and ways of working within organisations are changing - we just need to give it a few more years.


Regarding 5G/Wireless - I would genuinely love to see a proper debate with neutral industry representatives on this topic. All commentary to date are from those with vested interests, and apologies but those with vested interests cannot be objective. Wireless needs a fibre backbone to handle the appetite for data, that continues to grow. We also need an honest and open discussion on the range coverage for 5G cell sites - with ranges of 500-750 meters being discussed. Personally, I don't believe wireless is the answer and nothing will beat a physical fibre connection...

mikhail

Cockford Ollie wrote: »

Money wasted on rural fiber should be invested in better wireless coverage.

Wireless bandwidth is a finite resource. Last mile wireless cells are fine in theory, but there are challenges there too.

Pintman Paddy Losty

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Give the ESB a load of money to roll fibre out to every substation and then use wireless tech to solve the last mile issue.

The ESB is full of wasters. Lifers on massive money to climb up a pole once or twice a week. The HQ is full of gimps who came last in their GMIT business degree and got in to the board through nepotism. Lads who threaten to go to the shop Stewart if there 30 min tea break is taken away from them. Up there with other semi states like coillte and bord na mona. Privatise the lot of them.

TomSweeney

banana_bear wrote: »

I'm the last person who wants to raise a point against bringing fast broadband to every home, but you don't need "excellent fibre" broadband to work from home. You need RELIABLE broadband to work from home. Any crappy DSL line from eir or sky with 5MBit is enough, as long as it's solid (no outages and a constant latency < 50ms).

A Citrix or Remote Desktop connection uses less than 0.5MBit/s, and even if you work on your local PC directly accessing resources (files, mails, phone etc) from a VPN from your office, you'll be happy with 5MB/s. As long as the latency is low and the line is solid.

There's a huge difference between "running a business from home" (including servers in that location) and "accessing work ressources from home".

I'm working from home since 6 years. All the time I had a line of sight connection from Wicklow Broadband, which costs an arm and a leg (90.- for 12MBit/s) but generally is rock solid. I used to have both a DSL (eir, sky) and a 4g (Three) backup, but both of these were less reliable than the WBB line. DSL was down a lot, latency was all over the place, and 4G was a complete and utter lottery in terms of speeds. Both might of course be related to the area I live in, the infrastructure doesn't look like it has gotten any love for decades.

are you talking about 5MB/s or 5Mb/s ?

There is a big difference ... x10 roughly ..

gnf_ireland

mikhail wrote: »

Last mile wireless cells are fine in theory, but there are challenges there too.

Given the nature of 1 off housing in Ireland, I would genuinely love to know how useful wireless cells would be - and this is purely based on how many houses they would serve. There is little point in bring fibre to a cell site to serve 2-3 houses. It would cost more than serving the houses directly with fibre.

Wireless technology is constantly evolving - and costly. 3G launched in Ireland around 2004/05. 4G launched around 2013/14 and 5G is likely to launch around 2021/22 (outside of trials). So currently you get about 8 years lifespan before you require another expensive technology upgrade. And you still need to get physical fibre to each of these cell sites.

Now I do believe there is a role for microwave point to point connectivity for some hard to reach premises.

Time for a mature conversation around this (and a lot of other topics). Some of the media coverage to date has been shocking and clearly based on being fed material from vested interests.

Carlingford Locked

I never understood why anyone started this ridiculous project in the first place. Ireland is ridiculously unplanned in the countryside, there are houses slapped up around the place willy nilly, we are a nation of one off housing. Why should the tax payer have to fund a broadband connection to some McMansion in Achill? If you want broadband, pay for the connection yourself, or live in clustered communities like the rest of Europe.

Idbatterim

I cant get broadband in the family home in roscommon, Vodafone are trialing a 5g mobile broadband in the areas shortly though I believe. What is that likely to be like?

Ms2011

TomSweeney wrote: »

Out of interest what sort of speeds are rural people getting ? I know it's a very broad question, but what's considered "good" or "bad" if you live in Sherkin Island for example ?
or in County Laois ...

Just did a speed check there & it's 67.53 mb/s. I'm not a techy so I don't know if that's good or bad but it serves our needs. We're in rural Carlow.

my3cents

Carlingford Locked wrote: »

I never understood why anyone started this ridiculous project in the first place. Ireland is ridiculously unplanned in the countryside, there are houses slapped up around the place willy nilly, we are a nation of one off housing. Why should the tax payer have to fund a broadband connection to some McMansion in Achill? If you want broadband, pay for the connection yourself, or live in clustered communities like the rest of Europe.

They managed to get that other essential, electricity, to virtually every house in the country donkey years ago. Now that was a stupid idea if there ever was :rolleyes:

Cienciano

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Go for it! I moved to Sligo almost 5 years ago from Dublin. Best place to:

• Golf
• Mountainbike
• Surf
• Sail
• Swim
• Hillclimb/ Walk
• Bring up kids

Live in/ near the town and there is plenty of fibre broadband around.

Don't be one of the ones who will lie on their deathbed saying "If only I..."
https://twitter.com/i/status/1052844057666494464

No golf or swimming available in Dublin, lucky you moved. :pac:

mikhail

my3cents wrote: »

They managed to get that other essential, electricity, to virtually every house in the country donkey years ago. Now that was a stupid idea if there ever was :rolleyes:

It's considerably cheaper to install electrical cable than fibre.

ednwireland

I'm 2 miles from a town I get 2MB broadband, hasn't improved in several years , eir fibre stops 200 yds from the house so can't get that , 4g is sketchy , only wireless offering is completely hit and miss sometimes works and often doesn't. So yes I would prefer fibre.

Carlingford Locked

my3cents wrote: »

They managed to get that other essential, electricity, to virtually every house in the country donkey years ago. Now that was a stupid idea if there ever was :rolleyes:

Well if you're going to build in the middle of nowhere, I don't think the tax payer should be paying for your electricity connection either.