Is a Higher Diploma the equivalent to Bachelors in Ireland?

TooSweet

As above.

I recently finished a HDip in Software Development.

Some graduate programmes ask for a Bachelors?

Would my Hdip qualify me for these as it is on the same level?

Thanks for any help!

BurnsCarpenter

TooSweet wrote: »

As above.

I recently finished a HDip in Software Development.

Some graduate programmes ask for a Bachelors?

Would my Hdip qualify me for these as it is on the same level?

Thanks for any help!

Like a conversion course after you've done a bachelors in a different area? Yes, they are generally level 8, same as degree would be.

OMM 0000

Higher Diploma is not the same as a Degree.

Degree is generally 4 years.

Higher Diploma is generally 1 year.

Obviously the person with the degree is going to have significantly more knowledge.

However I would still apply for the job.

C3PO

OMM 0000 wrote:

Higher Diploma is not the same as a Degree.

Degree is generally 4 years.

Higher Diploma is generally 1 year.

Obviously the person with the degree is going to have significantly more knowledge.

However I would still apply for the job.

An "ordinary" BSC degree is only Level 7 and generally would take 3 years to complete. An Honours degree is level 8 as is a Higher Diploma. In Ireland I understand that a Higher Diploma is a postgraduate qualification so a person would already have a degree? I think they would be considered an equivalent.

Dial Hard

They're equivalent, according to the NFQ. Both Level 8.

http://www.nfq-qqi.com/

JMNolan

Dial Hard wrote: »

They're equivalent, according to the NFQ. Both Level 8.

http://www.nfq-qqi.com/

They might be the same in the NFQ but they are not the same in terms of knowledge.

Jimmy Bottlehead

JMNolan wrote: »

They might be the same in the NFQ but they are not the same in terms of knowledge.

That's entirely subjective. I learned infinitely more during my H. Dip conversion than during my BA (Hons) Degree. I may be wrong, but I believe undertaking a H. Dip would necessitate having undertaken prior study, and therefore it would assume a higher starting level of academic prowess from the student.

And from an employability perspective, a level 8 is a level 8. I was accepted to a Masters following completion of my H. Dip and have since gone onto doctoral level study, and my depth of knowledge at Masters level was as good as those with a degree.

OP, fire ahead with your application and best of luck. You've done the grafting, now it's time to put it to use

patjack

JMNolan wrote: »

They might be the same in the NFQ but they are not the same in terms of knowledge.

Not true, they are the same NFQ for a reason and to complete a Hdip you need relevant experience/educational attainment.

Just because someone completes a degree doesn't necessarily mean that they have more knowledge than someone who has attained a HDip.

I am a degree holder btw.

patjack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Higher Diploma is not the same as a Degree.

Degree is generally 4 years.

Higher Diploma is generally 1 year.

Obviously the person with the degree is going to have significantly more knowledge.

However I would still apply for the job.

Back to school for you, "obviously the person with the degree is going to have significantly more knowledge"

Rubbish. Think about it. They may have more knowledge, but they may not. Someone spending 4 years in college may have less knowledge than someone with four years practical experience.

We as a country place too much emphasis on the possession of a piece of paper obtained after a few years in college. In my experience it does open doors initially but after a few years in the workplace it's down to knowledge and experience and someone without a leaving cert could be far better and more knowledgeable than someone with doctorate. Of course the converse is true.

But as someone with a degree I know there are people in my workplace with better knowledge than me at my job who don't hold a degree.

JMNolan

How could a one year higher diploma impart the same knowledge as a four year degree? Here is UCD CS HDip

Introduction to Programming (Python)
Object-Oriented Programming (Python)
Relational Databases & Information Systems
Web Application Development
Operating Systems
Computational Thinking
Java Programming
Data Structures & Algorithms
Computer Architecture & Organisation
Data Analytics
Networks & Internet Systems
Software Engineering
Work placement with an opportunity to engage with employers

And you are saying this is the same as the four year CS degree which covers
Algorithmic Problem Solving
Introduction to Computer Architecture
Formal Foundations
Computer Programming I
Computer Science in Practice
Software Engineering Project 1
Computer Programming II
Foundations of Mathematics for Computer Science I
Foundations of Mathematics for Computer Science II
Introduction to Mathematics
Data Structures and Algorithms I
Digital Systems
Databases and Information Systems I
Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science
Introduction to Java
Data Structures and Algorithms II
Software Engineering Project 2
Intro to Operating Systems
Intro to Functional Programming
Linear Algebra II
Matrix Algebra
Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
Networks and Internet Systems
Program Construction I
Object-Oriented Programming
Processor Design
Foundations of Computing
Computer Graphics I
Software Engineering Project 3
Information Theory
Graphs and Networks
Computer Science Project Year Long Module
Program Construction II
Distributed Systems
Multi-Agent Systems
Parallel and Cluster Computing
AI for Games and Puzzles
Compiler Construction
Cloud Computing (UG)
Performance of Computer Systems
Data Mining

Yeah, right.

patjack

You are forgetting that to complete a HDip level 8, you generally have to have other educational attainments. Like I don't think you can just hop, skip jump and hey presto you are into a HDip. For example, Teachers have to complete a number of years in college before they complete their HDip. Most HDip holders have degrees or degree equivalents before embarking on a HDip.

OMM 0000

There's no way a Higher Diploma has more or a comparable amount of content compared to a Degree.

I did a master's degree and it had no where near the content of my degree. Both were in Computer Science.

Maybe this will help explain it:

A year has 52 weeks. There is only so much study you can do in 52 weeks. For example, you can't do 60 weeks of study in 52 weeks. Time just doesn't work that way.

So if a degree is 40 weeks x 4, and a higher diploma is 40 weeks x 1, we know, for certain, that the degree contains more material.

Now I understand if you did an arts degree, you may think a higher diploma in computer science "feels" like more work, because generally arts degrees don't have a lot of content (lots of free time), and computer science arguably is more difficult (it's black and white; you can't bull**** at all).

But there is no way a 1 year Computer Science course has the same or more content than a 4 year Computer Science course.

Sorry if the above sounds patronising. I feel very weird explaining this.

nim1bdeh38l2cw

It's not the same level of content, but it is the same level of knowledge required.

OMM 0000

Benton Blue Uvula wrote: »

It's not the same level of content, but it is the same level of knowledge required.

A higher diploma in computer science is for people who don't have a computer science background. It is one year long. Obviously it cannot require the same level of knowledge as someone with a computer science degree.

This thread is bizarre, so I feel like some of the people posting here must be people who did a higher diploma, and they're trying to convince the world (and themselves) that their 1 year computing course has given them more knowledge than someone with a 4 year computing degree.

Again, I say this as someone with both a degree and masters in computer science. My degree had much more content and required much more knowledge, as it was way broader and there was more time to study a topic in detail.

OMM 0000

patjack wrote: »

Back to school for you, "obviously the person with the degree is going to have significantly more knowledge"

Rubbish. Think about it. They may have more knowledge, but they may not. Someone spending 4 years in college may have less knowledge than someone with four years practical experience.

We as a country place too much emphasis on the possession of a piece of paper obtained after a few years in college. In my experience it does open doors initially but after a few years in the workplace it's down to knowledge and experience and someone without a leaving cert could be far better and more knowledgeable than someone with doctorate. Of course the converse is true.

But as someone with a degree I know there are people in my workplace with better knowledge than me at my job who don't hold a degree.

That's a ridiculous strawman.

I'm not saying someone who does a higher diploma won't be better than someone with a degree.

The best programmer I know does not have a degree.

I am saying the one year higher diploma course content cannot be a) larger and b) more difficult than a four year degree. Because it's only one year long and it starts from scratch. Compare that to year four of a degree which already assumes expertise.

Woden

I did the UCD CS Hdip years ago as a conversion course off the back of my undergrad. People should be under no illusion that it is the same thing as a dedicated 4 year CS course.

It serves its purpose.

OMM 0000

Woden wrote: »

I did the UCD CS Hdip years ago as a conversion course off the back of my undergrad. People should be under no illusion that it is the same thing as a dedicated 4 year CS course.

It serves its purpose.

They can fit a 4 year degree in 1 year?

This thread is insane. I'm done.

EDIT: Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and you're actually agreeing with me. My apologies if that's the case.

patjack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

There's no way a Higher Diploma has more or a comparable amount of content compared to a Degree.

I did a master's degree and it had no where near the content of my degree. Both were in Computer Science.

Maybe this will help explain it:

A year has 52 weeks. There is only so much study you can do in 52 weeks. For example, you can't do 60 weeks of study in 52 weeks. Time just doesn't work that way.

So if a degree is 40 weeks x 4, and a higher diploma is 40 weeks x 1, we know, for certain, that the degree contains more material.

Now I understand if you did an arts degree, you may think a higher diploma in computer science "feels" like more work, because generally arts degrees don't have a lot of content (lots of free time), and computer science arguably is more difficult (it's black and white; you can't bull**** at all).

But there is no way a 1 year Computer Science course has the same or more content than a 4 year Computer Science course.

Sorry if the above sounds patronising. I feel very weird explaining this.

Agree re: content. No-one disputed that there is more content in a four year course than a one year course.

You have argued that someone with a degree is "obviously more knowledgeable" than someone with a HDip.

My point is that this is not necessarily true and sometimes the opposite is true.

Simple really.

Again you are failing to realise that someone completing a HDip generally has other educational attainments.

OMM 0000

patjack wrote: »

Agree re: content. No-one disputed that there is more content in a four year course than a one year course.

You have argued that someone with a degree is "obviously more knowledgeable" than someone with a HDip.

My point is that this is not necessarily true and sometimes the opposite is true.

Simple really.

Again you are failing to realise that someone completing a HDip generally has other educational attainments.

I'm talking about knowledge they learnt solely in the course.

That's what everyone else is talking about too.

You're talking about something completely different.

Dial Hard

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This thread is bizarre, so I feel like some of the people posting here must be people who did a higher diploma, and they're trying to convince the world (and themselves) that their 1 year computing course has given them more knowledge than someone with a 4 year computing degree.

I have an honours degree, so that argument holds no water in my case, anyway.

Look, you could argue the toss over the content and level of knowledge required for one versus the other all day, but from a purely objective qualification level, they are equivalent, which is what the OP was asking.

patjack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's a ridiculous strawman.


....
I am saying the one year higher diploma course content cannot be a) larger and b) more difficult than a four year degree. Because it's only one year long and it starts from scratch. Compare that to year four of a degree which already assumes expertise.

I never said it was more difficult or larger, so don't know where you are getting that.

But you did state that a degree holder has "obviously more knowledge" than a HDip holder which you have now contradicted by saying that the best programmer you know doesn't have a degree.

OMM 0000

Dial Hard wrote: »

I have an honours degree, so that argument holds no water in my case, anyway.

Look, you could argue the toss over the content and level of knowledge required for one versus the other all day, but from a purely objective qualification level, they are equivalent, which is what the OP was asking.

I agree they are considered the same level on the education framework.

But objectively 9 times out of 10 someone with an arts degree + 1 year computing diploma is going to have significantly less computing knowledge than someone with a 4 year computing degree.

Even the name (diploma vs degree) tells us this.

OMM 0000

patjack wrote: »

I never said it was more difficult or larger, so don't know where you are getting that.

But you did state that a degree holder has "obviously more knowledge" than a HDip holder which you have now contradicted by saying that the best programmer you know doesn't have a degree.

More knowledge based on the course content.

I'm not contradicting myself.

OBVIOUSLY someone who does a higher diploma, really loves computer science, and spends their time programming as a hobby is going to be much better, and much more knowledgable than someone who has a computer science degree, but hated it, and got through the 4 years by cheating and scraping a pass.

But objectively if we compare the content of a higher diploma with the content of a degree, the degree will have significantly more content and will be in greater depth.

Riskymove

lot of pointless arguing here I think

OP

If the job requires you to have a qualification at lvl 8 of the framework you are ok

if the job requires you to have a Hon Bachelors degree in Computing then you don't have the required qualification

patjack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm talking about knowledge they learnt solely in the course.

That's what everyone else is talking about too.

You're talking about something completely different.

Look I simply pointed out that someone with a HDip could be more knowledgeable than someone who holds a degree which contradicted you saying that "obviously" the degree holder would have far more knowledge.

That's all.

OMM 0000

patjack wrote: »

Look I simply pointed out that someone with a HDip could be more knowledgeable than someone who holds a degree which contradicted you saying that "obviously" the degree holder would have far more knowledge.

That's all.

Yes, there are always exceptions, of course.

Clareman

To get on a H Dip course you have to display that you are able for the course, some courses require an under grad others work expierence.

I would say that no, a Higher Diploma is not the equivalent to a Batchelors, according to the NFQ a Higher Diploma is the equilivant of an Honours Batchelor BUT for a work place they may require a Batchelors to show that you understand the fundamentals rahter than "master" knowledge of 1 specific area.

OMM 0000

Btw I just re-read some of my posts and they seem cranky. I slept 3 hours last night and it's almost midnight here. Sorry if the tone is a bit harsher than normal.

Woden

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They can fit a 4 year degree in 1 year?

This thread is insane. I'm done.

EDIT: Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and you're actually agreeing with me. My apologies if that's the case.

Yes you misunderstand me. I'm generally agreeing with you.

gozunda

TooSweet wrote: »

As above.

I recently finished a HDip in Software Development.

Some graduate programmes ask for a Bachelors?

Would my Hdip qualify me for these as it is on the same level?

Thanks for any help!

Just to clarify - where was the Higher Diploma course studied?

Do you have an undergraduate degree as well?

dar100

The knowkedge from a hdip would be more in depth and critical. Therefore, quakity over quantity.

OMM 0000

dar100 wrote: »

The knowkedge from a hdip would be more in depth and critical. Therefore, quakity over quantity.

How would a 1 year course have more depth than a 4 year course?

Rikand

I did a 4 years honours degree in software engineering before going on to do a masters in the same.

In my masters course there were people who had done degrees in other disciplines and then did a short term h.dip in software in order to get onto the masters. They obviously didn't complete the same number of classes in software that I did but by god were some of them better programmers. 4 or 5 of them were the best in the masters class. Next level brilliant.

So yes, a h.dip can serve as a good equivalent to an honours degree. The ability of a person will be obvious in their results achieved and their interview imo

froog

I have a bachelor's science degree and two hdips, and the 2 hdips combined are about equivalent to a single year of my bachelor's degree. yes they are both called level 8, but that's meaningless really.

OMM 0000

It's really interesting how there are such black and white opinions on this topic.

mightyreds

I work in software development with a company that takes on a fair amount of conversion course applicants, in terms of the nqf level they are the same so I would apply , but as others have said from my experience the people doing the hdip were a good bit less knowledgeable than the people who had done a full 4 years bachelors.

Some hdip applicants had been immense in college but it's a whole different game writing a small application for a specific task in college than going into industry applications and I feel this is where the 4 year course really bridged that gap.

But the only difference I would feel is it takes a conversion course applicant a little longer to get up to speed and then a little longer to get promoted up the ranks but after that you wouldn't notice a difference.

C3PO

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It's really interesting how there are such black and white opinions on this topic.

But no actual (definitive) answer to the quesion!!

OMM 0000

C3PO wrote: »

But no actual (definitive) answer to the quesion!!

I know it's extraordinary arrogant of me to say this, but my answer is the correct answer:

You cannot get 4 year's knowledge in 1 year. Especially with something like programming which has to be taught slowly.

But programming, if we're to focus on that, is something you're either good at or not good at. Some people just get it. Most people don't.

Let's imagine you have John and Mark. They both have the right brain for programming. We give John the knowledge of a 4 year degree, and Mark the knowledge of a 1 year higher diploma. Obviously John is going to have more knowledge. But Mark will catch up over time.

I strongly suspect most of the people trying convince us 1 year >= 4 years are people who do not have a computer science degree, and instead have a higher diploma. As I said already, my 4 computer science degree had more content than my 2 years computer science masters, so there's no way a 1 year higher diploma has more content. It just doesn't make sense.

I've been in software development for over 20 years.

I still think you should apply for jobs which say "degree required". I would also hire you if you were good.

Tom Dunne

A level 8 degree typically requires 30 credits per semester, 2 semesters per year, over four years, which equals 240 credits.


A higher diploma is typically 60 credits, which is two semesters.


Both are at Level 8, but are not comparable. The Higher Diplomas are typically called conversion courses - for people who are qualified, at Level 8, in another discipline. The Level 8 designation relates to the learning outcomes of the modules (and associated assessments) - it would not be surprising to find similarities between year 4 of the bachelors degree and the higher diploma. Same's could be said for the programme learning outcomes.



The popularity of the higher diploma is particularly pronounced in the tech industry in response to industry need. We, as a country, produce something like 2000-3000 graduates per year below what the industry requires. Therefore while a job spec might require a Level 8 Bachelors degree, in my experience, such is the demand for tech staff, companies are likely to bend the rules in favour of a Higher Diploma.

FelaniaMump

OMM 0000 wrote: »

There's no way a Higher Diploma has more or

Sorry if the above sounds patronising. I feel very weird explaining this.

Patronising, but also embarrassing and idiotic.

A person with a Hdip already has a degree. And a hdip. A person with a degree only has a degree.

A person could have a mediocre degree in computer science and know less than someone who had no degree at all. A person could have a relevant degree and a hdip and easily know far more than both of them.

Regardless of anyones opinion, the national framework of qualifications tells us what are equivelencies, not anyone here. And a Hdip IS in fact equivalent to or higher than a degree.
End of discussion.

OMM 0000

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Patronising, but also embarrassing and idiotic.

A person with a Hdip already has a degree. And a hdip. A person with a degree only has a degree.

A person could have a mediocre degree in computer science and know less than someone who had no degree at all. A person could have a relevant degree and a hdip and easily know far more than both of them.

Regardless of anyones opinion, the national framework of qualifications tells us what are equivelencies, not anyone here. And a Hdip IS in fact equivalent to or higher than a degree.
End of discussion.

You're wrong.

Again, as I've said this multiple times, I have a degree and masters degree in computer science, and my degree was waaaaay more intensive.

For the record, my masters is from Stanford.

A HDip cannot be more intensive than this.

BrianD3

Are some of the "conversion courses" NFQ level 9 and some level 8 or are they all level 8. E.g. DCU's graduate diploma vs Maynooth's higher diploma.

https://www.dcu.ie/courses/Postgraduate/computing/Graduate-Diploma-Information-Technology.shtml

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/study-maynooth/postgraduate-studies/courses/higher-diploma-information-technology

I have a document from qualifax.ie which states that the DCU one is NFQ 9, this has also been stated on the boards.ie DCU forum.

On the other hand, wikipedia says that in the Irish education system, a "postgraduate" diploma is level 9 while a "graduate" diploma and higher diploma are both level 8.

Are entry requirements a factor - the DCU course needs a minimum of 2nd class honours in the primary degree whereas the Maynooth course requirement says nothing about needing 2nd class honours in the primary degree.

Moocifer

I'm currently doing a HDip in Computer Science (conversion) following on from a four year Bachelors in another area. Both are a level 8 on the NFQ but the conversion is two years long and very intense. My off spring is currently studying for a four year degree in Computer Science also and my HDip has gone into way more detail in the common subjects than they have in their full time course.

Reason I know is that we're both studying the same subjects for post Christmas exams at the moment and we've been comparing notes and they are three years in at this point and I've only one done!:rolleyes:

Tom Dunne

FelaniaMump wrote: »

A person with a Hdip already has a degree.

Not necessarily. It is possible to be enrolled on a programme via recognition of prior learning and substantive, relevant experience.

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Regardless of anyones opinion, the national framework of qualifications tells us what are equivelencies, not anyone here. And a Hdip IS in fact equivalent to or higher than a degree.
End of discussion.

Being at the same level does not equate to equivalence. See my explanation above. It is to do with learning outcomes.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Are some of the "conversion courses" NFQ level 9 and some level 8 or are they all level 8. E.g. DCU's graduate diploma vs Maynooth's higher diploma.

https://www.dcu.ie/courses/Postgraduate/computing/Graduate-Diploma-Information-Technology.shtml

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/study-maynooth/postgraduate-studies/courses/higher-diploma-information-technology

I have a document from qualifax.ie which states that the DCU one is NFQ 9, this has also been stated on the boards.ie DCU forum.

On the other hand, wikipedia says that in the Irish education system, a "postgraduate" diploma is level 9 while a "graduate" diploma and higher diploma are both level 8.

Are entry requirements a factor - the DCU course needs a minimum of 2nd class honours in the primary degree whereas the Maynooth course requirement says nothing about needing 2nd class honours in the primary degree.

A post-grad diploma is at level 9, the higher diplomas are at level 8. There is no graduate diploma on the QQI framework.

FelaniaMump

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Being at the same level does not equate to equivalence. See my explanation above. It is to do with learning outcomes.

It does, it's literally the point.

Tom Dunne

FelaniaMump wrote: »

It does, it's literally the point.

Just curious as to how much experience working in third level and involvement in quality assurance of third level programmes you have?

Genuine question. I am having trouble reconciling your absolute certainty on this matter and if I am wrong, I would welcome the correction.

OMM 0000

Tom, tell me if I'm incorrect, but you have been a university lecturer in Ireland and the Middle East, right?

froog

no employer in their right mind would take a hdip over a full degree all other things being equal between two candidates. the degree has at least 4 times the content of the hdip.

Tom Dunne

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Tom, tell me if I'm incorrect, but you have been a university lecturer in Ireland and the Middle East, right?

I will tell you if you are incorrect. I seem to be doing a lot of that on this thread.

Franz Von Peppercorn

froog wrote: »

no employer in their right mind would take a hdip over a full degree all other things being equal between two candidates. the degree has at least 4 times the content of the hdip.

A lot of people I have worked with have had degrees in electronics etc. Some had conversion courses. Some didn’t.

Most job openings say computer science or equivalent.

FelaniaMump

froog wrote: »

no employer in their right mind would take a hdip over a full degree all other things being equal between two candidates. the degree has at least 4 times the content of the hdip.

All things are unlikely to be equal between those two candidates, and I can assure you that people with hdips beat those with degrees for jobs all the time.
Some of those degrees are of pretty low quality, and experience counts for more. As does independent further learning in adults.