hoo-haha about wind turbines in Kerry.....

There is no energy without a network. It's called an open circuit. I know what you mean though, thanks.

nogoodnamesleft

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well you end up with a load of other troubles. If people on the single phase (rural) network started buying EVs with gusto, the electricity network would end up in real trouble and real fast. You need a system to schedule charging so it doesn’t overload transformers all over the place. It’s all possible but it is not simple.

Wait until the roll out of the new higher capacity EV fast chargers rated at 350kW which is due sometime after 2020. Imagine a few of them at the end of a rural single phase feeder. Even in an urban environment say a park and ride where everyone drives and plugs in their car how would a utility even plan network changes based on how many commuters went to a station on a particular day, never mind operate one. I can see lots and lots of future road works and voltage issues on the horizon.

Personally I see Hydrogen being the technology which will eventually win out as a practical solution both for transport and energy storage. There are a few filling stations for Hydrogen poping up in the UK recently. Fifth Gear did a episode on the new Hydrogen Hyundai Nexo a few weeks ago.

Here is it just me... isn't SEAI a power authority? Sustainable power? Seems it would be a more accurate description of their MO.

You can store energy you can't store power.

SlowBlowin

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Wait until the roll out of the new higher capacity EV fast chargers rated at 350kW which is due sometime after 2020. Imagine a few of them at the end of a rural single phase feeder. Even in an urban environment say a park and ride where everyone drives and plugs in their car how would a utility even plan network changes based on how many commuters went to a station on a particular day, never mind operate one. I can see lots and lots of future road works and voltage issues on the horizon.

Personally I see Hydrogen being the technology which will eventually win out as a practical solution both for transport and energy storage. There are a few filling stations for Hydrogen poping up in the UK recently. Fifth Gear did a episode on the new Hydrogen Hyundai Nexo a few weeks ago.

There are a lot of obstacles to overcome with hydrogen, if you produce it by electrolysis then that is only 75% efficient. Fuels cells are currently only 50% efficient.

Perhaps the biggest issue is safety, petrol is bad, but hydrogen and oxygen actually detonates, its explosive. There has been lots of research into material that can absorb hydrogen for increased safety (like hydrides) but then the energy density falls too far.

If these could be overcome then it would be great, but in the time it takes to solve the issues how far will battery technology progress ? Everyone is working on solid state batteries. There is also the first past the post thing (VHS/Betamax), so my bet is batteries will win out although is the hydrogen issues can be solved it is a neater solution.

I think the rural areas of Ireland and other counties will remain ICE dominated for a while. I changed my car a few months back, I wanted a EV but totally impractical in Kerry, charging infrastructure, price etc. In then end went for a VW diesel.

SB

nogoodnamesleft

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Personally I see Hydrogen being the technology which will eventually win out as a practical solution both for transport and energy storage. There are a few filling stations for Hydrogen poping up in the UK recently. Fifth Gear did a episode on the new Hydrogen Hyundai Nexo a few weeks ago.

Hydrogen will probably win out for vehicles that require long "uptime" buses for example, EVs are easier for the general public to charge at home for example.

unkel

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Wait until the roll out of the new higher capacity EV fast chargers rated at 350kW which is due sometime after 2020.

They are actually being installed right now, in Ireland. Google Ionity.

Twenty Grand

Fantastic video on hydrogen production here.

https://youtu.be/f7MzFfuNOtY

SlowBlowin

Fast charging is the easy way to kill a battery. Keep it between 30% and 75% and the current Tesla batteries will probably out last you.

As an old engineer once said "batteries never die, they are always murdered".

SB

gctest50

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

...........

Even in an urban environment say a park and ride where everyone drives and plugs in their car how would a utility even plan network changes based on how many commuters went to a station on a particular day, never mind operate one. .......

If the park and ride is at a shopping centre or similar, you could install a few generators and dump the waste heat into the building.

antoinolachtnai

If you start using generators to charge electric cars, then all is lost!

Something like the shopping centre is a bit different from the local network. It’s not the same as the LV network that runs out to individual homes. Still, if you want to be able to charge 20 cars at 20 kW or faster that needs a lot of new capacity, which the shopping centre will pay for. (Is different from residential where people wont be exceeding current nominal capacity and won’t be willing to pay for upgrades.)

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you start using generators to charge electric cars, then all is lost!

Something like the shopping centre is a bit different from the local network. It’s not the same as the LV network that runs out to individual homes. Still, if you want to be able to charge 20 cars at 20 kW or faster that needs a lot of new capacity, which the shopping centre will pay for. (Is different from residential where people wont be exceeding current nominal capacity and won’t be willing to pay for upgrades.)

Not really, a (probably diesel) generator would still be far more efficient that scores of individual ICE vehicles at converting oil to motion and with a single plant it will be easier to control pollution with the added benefit that the waste heat can be used to heat the shopping centre.

antoinolachtnai

The waste heat is generally speaking not that much use in a shopping centre. For a month or two of the year, maybe. They often have lots of other sources of heat. A diesel generator is a bit of a polluter and not something a shopping centre would want nearby. If you are going to use a diesel generator for more than an hour in the day in a built up area, I would expect that a planning application for change of use would be required, and you would be unlikely to get it. You'd also have to maintain and depreciate the generator. On the whole I think you'd be better off paying for the increased connection to the distribution grid.

You are right that you would get a bit more efficiency out of it than putting the diesel in the vehicle.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The waste heat is generally speaking not that much use in a shopping centre. For a month or two of the year, maybe. They often have lots of other sources of heat. A diesel generator is a bit of a polluter and not something a shopping centre would want nearby. If you are going to use a diesel generator for more than an hour in the day in a built up area, I would expect that a planning application for change of use would be required, and you would be unlikely to get it. You'd also have to maintain and depreciate the generator. On the whole I think you'd be better off paying for the increased connection to the distribution grid.

You are right that you would get a bit more efficiency out of it than putting the diesel in the vehicle.

Yes I agree, the diesel generator would be a source of pollution, but as a single engine or team of engines running at high efficiency, which reduces pollutants as well as having an exhaust system that can use scrubbers and other pollution reduction methods that a static installation can achieve, unlike a vehicle based engine.

Until the battery storage systems become widely available, it is a good interim step.

antoinolachtnai

But a large gas plant will be more efficient and less polluting?

Would a bigger grid connection not be a better solution?

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

But a large gas plant will be more efficient and less polluting?

Would a bigger grid connection not be a better solution?

The problem with large scale EV charging is the requirement of possibly huge amounts of electrical energy in one place, a higher capacity grid would be better, but it takes time to build up infrastructure like that.

The best solution is to have battery banks located at all charging stations and charge these up via the grid and then fast charge the EVs directly from these batteries.

wexfordman2

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

My information is based on the density of deployment I see everyday in Éire compared to the mainland.
Self-sufficiency is doable with combined sources and practical grid storage solutions.



Bare in mind we have probably over twice the wind resource Germany has.

Eire ?

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The quickest way to change the vehicle fleet to EV is to raise the duty on ICE vehicles. Most vehicles end up on the second-hand market after only a couple of years and second-hand buyers are limited to what's available, usually ICE vehicles.

And what will be the environmental cost of scrapping thousands of vehicles before their end of life?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The quickest way to change the vehicle fleet to EV is to raise the duty on ICE vehicles. Most vehicles end up on the second-hand market after only a couple of years and second-hand buyers are limited to what's available, usually ICE vehicles.

Del2005 wrote: »

And what will be the environmental cost of scrapping thousands of vehicles before their end of life?

Read the comment again, nowhere does it mention scrapping vehicles before their expiry date, the duty is on new vehicles to discourage their introduction to the roads.
Anyway, there's a potential market there for converting recent models to electric, cars under 8 years old for example.

wexfordman2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Read the comment again, nowhere does it mention scrapping vehicles before their expiry date, the duty is on new vehicles to discourage their introduction to the roads.
Anyway, there's a potential market there for converting recent models to electric, cars under 8 years old for example.

How much do you reckon it would cost to convert a car from ice to ev?

Brand new electric motor, and batteries etc ?

wexfordman2

wexfordman2 wrote: »

How much do you reckon it would cost to convert a car from ice to ev?

Brand new electric motor, and batteries etc ?

Somewhere in the region of €10-15k, batteries, motor & controller and installation.
only really viable if you're converting a vehicle that would suffer heavy depreciation if not converted and you have a ready supply of such vehicles.

Dealers could probably get ex-fleet cars for really low prices and convert & sell at a decent profit if the secondhand prices of diesels really tank.

Professionally converted EVs would have a ready market.

Clicky

unkel

Big business in the US. Mainly for classics.

Clicky

YouToob Clicky

EV Grins!! :D

If anyone out there needs to do an electric sailboat build please PM me.
I haven't a clue what I'm doing but I am reassuringly expensive...:pac:

Calibos

I used to think that I'd forever miss the sound of nice ICE but as I've pulled my hair out trying to reduce road noise getting into our home beside a busy junction I realised how quiet the house would be in a full EV world. I'd only have to put up with the sound of drunks walking home at the weekends. I can live without my throaty gurgles in my own car if it means a much more aurally pleasant home and locality!! Roll on the EV future I say!!

bob mcbob

I thought this was interesting. If it works for a large 200 bed hotel then it can obviously work at home.

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-lothians/uk-s-first-battery-powered-hotel-comes-to-edinburgh-1-4851649

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

I thought this was interesting. If it works for a large 200 bed hotel then it can obviously work at home.

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-lothians/uk-s-first-battery-powered-hotel-comes-to-edinburgh-1-4851649

It is the start of a trend, more and more businesses are going to store up the cheaper electric from renewables to use during peak times.


At some time in the near future, it will become normal to "top up" home battery systems on windy nights.

antoinolachtnai

How much would it cost to supply and install a battery to cover the peak two hours of consumption in a house (about 4 kW I suppose). (At current prices)

Twenty Grand

Here's a thread with some quotes

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057898473

antoinolachtnai

Looking at the site they linked to, 4.8kWh of battery would be about GBP 2000 + VAT before any discounts. That's 2250 euros. Then add 500 euros to commission it (which is a bit rich really) for 2750 euros.

If I got 3650 cycles out of it that would be about 2750/(4.4kWh Usable capacity *3650) = 17c a kWh, which would require a differential of 170 euros a MWh between the peak and off-peak cost of the power within the day. A bit hard to make it work economically still.

If I could get 7300 turns of it over 20 years, then the differential I would need would be 85 euros. This looks a little better I guess. But it's really stretching the life of the unit.

Twenty Grand

It looks like it's not really viable yet.

Give it 5 years, hope prices drop to a point where the payback is better.

gctest50

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you start using generators to charge electric cars, then all is lost!

It's only for peak times, done all the time in industry for other reasons

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

...............

. It’s not the same as the LV network that runs out to individual homes. ......

You can export enough power to the local grid to keep the generator running at its most efficient


.

gctest50

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

...........

A diesel generator is a bit of a polluter and not something a shopping centre would want nearby. ........

You could use natural gas powered generator/ CHP



Good savings once you've the right load :

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is the start of a trend, more and more businesses are going to store up the cheaper electric from renewables to use during peak times.


At some time in the near future, it will become normal to "top up" home battery systems on windy nights.

?

They are storing off peak energy not, afaik, cheap renewable energy. Of course I totally believe that that’s the way forward but it isn’t there yet.

Franz Von Peppercorn

In other words rather than throw a full carbon tax on my units used every month the bill could be broken down as follows.

1000 units at 0.08c = 80€

500 units zero carbon (20% reduction) = 32
500 units carbon (30% tax) = 40€ + 12€ = 52€

Electricity cost pre standing charge = 84€


That’s a pretty windy month. People would then support more renewable energy production.