No desire for my wife

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this one for obvious reasons.

I am a man in my late 40s with two kids, one in secondary school and one in college. We're not rich but not poor either and own our own house.

We had an emotionally very difficult situation of losing a primary school age child to cancer about 8 years ago which took us a while to get through. I will say that I closed down emotionally at that time for maybe a year as all I could do was to handle my own feelings, and keep myself sane. I kept it together work wise but I couldn't handle hers and the kids emotions too. I told her this several times that I had to do it for my own sanity. I was at least open about my failings.

Our sex life during this period was pretty much non existent, and there was no closeness either. She got big into fitness and running and got in great shape. I buried myself in work. In the meantime our sex life went from bad to worse. I tried and tried to make things easier for her, and tried to communicate with her so many times but she always said "everything was fine" and everything I did seemed to make things worse.

I delved further into work while it turned out as I later found out she delved into a fantasy world around this married guy in his 30s that we knew. I initally suspected something was off when we met him out one day and she acted like a star struck teenager.

She wrote a diary on some online diary service that I accidentally came across, and I noticed this guys name in the entry that was open. Of course I read further then and it had lots of entries about how great he was, and how she fantasized about having sex with him, how she thought about him the times we had sex, how to get with a younger guy etc. So much for no interest in sex. When it wasn't about him, it was about how much I annoyed and irritated her. I took a few screenshots and saved them.

I confronted her about this and she claimed it wasn't true, to the point where I had to read out the entries I had screenshotted. Then she accused me of snooping etc. I told her we were done as I couldn't live with a liar. She then broke down and said it was all true but it was just a fantasy to distract her from what happened to us.

This happened a couple of years ago. After it happened I got some hobbies and interests of my own, got reasonably fit, chatted up some women, and basically became a much more confident person than before. She has gone in the opposite direction. She has put on weight, looks visibly older, and is now at the beginning of menopause. She is trying everything to be nice to me, including sex whenever I want, surprise presents etc but it all feels empty to me.

I just have no interest in her anymore. I don't hate her, I just don't care about her. Her deception just broke something in me. I would divorce her but it would cause a lot of upheval in our kids lives. I also feel if the right opportunity arose I would cheat on her and feel no guilt about it. This is completely unlike how I felt for our first 20 years of marriage where I actively turned down several opportunities. I am not in love with some other woman or anything like that, in fact I'm not interested in relationships AT ALL with other women at the moment. The idea alone is offputting. I'd much prefer to live on my own, in charge of my own life, with sex now and again with different women - but no closeness of any sort. It all feels fake to me. Any time I hear women talk about emotions and love it just feels fake.

We have tried counselling with little success.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for here, maybe advice, maybe just getting it off my chest. Any feedback, positive or negative, appreciated.

KrustyUCC

It's unfair to live with your wife with having no interest in her yet not divorcing only because it would cause upheaval for the kids

The kids will know what's going on as it is and are old enough to deal with their parents divorcing

Break up the relationship then you can go off live on your own, in charge of your own life, with sex now and again with different women - but no closeness of any sort if you want

No point in keeping the relationship going or trying more counselling if you have checked out already

LegacyUser

KrustyUCC wrote: »

<Snip> No need to quote the post.

I know what you are saying but will basically cost about €2000 / month extra for me to live on my own, which would make it very very tight financially for all of us. Something I neglected to mention was that my wife managed the finances during the bad period, and we nearly went bankrupt - for example paying daily expenses with credit cards. Part of the problem was me trusting her with it and not keeping on top of it myself.

Dial Hard

Your marriage is over. Do the right thing for everyone in your family - including your kids - and end it.

road_high

Reads like a classic case of a marriage being over. I think you know but unsure/scared of to deal with the inevitable upheaval it’ll bring, for a while at least

Sunflower 27

I agree the marriage is over. You are only staying for financial reasons. Why would it cost you 2k extra to move out? Are you saying that is what rent will cost you?

Some people can live in a loveless marriage, others can't. Only you can decide if you can or can't.

It might be worth some personal counselling for yourself. If your wife is wanting you to stay together out and you don't, it won't be easy on either of you if you decide you want out of the marriage.

I'm sorry for the loss of your child. That must have been so incredibly painful.

LegacyUser

2K / month is roughly what it would cost to run another household. 1k rent and 1k living expenses.

LegacyUser

Yes I think we are both broken in our own way.

nodesireleft

nodesireleft wrote: »

Yes I think we are both broken in our own way.

Sorry for you loss.

Why do you think discovering the fantasy diary was such a big issue for you? Everyone has flights of fancy on occasion.

It strikes me that your post is very neutral. You might cheat if the chance arose but you aren't going pursue it, you don't want relationships with anyone else, you don't even so too bothered by whether you want a divorce or not.

People break up and divorce all the time, what is it you actually want to do though?

Life is hard, and it's kicked you both unbelievably hard, but is closing yourself off from people really where you want to be for the next 20 or 30 years? There's more going on than just your relationship with your wife.

ginandtonicsky

Really sorry about the loss of your child. That obviously had a very deep and lasting effect on you both and I think on your part there are a lot of unresolved issues there.

You shut down emotionally and I’m not so sure you ever really opened back up for business. It’s quite telling that you say you find love and affection and emotion “fake” - you haven’t allowed yourself to experience them for so long. You closed the door to your wife a long time ago and her betrayal of your trust seemed to serve as validation for doing that.

Have you received grief counselling and if so, are these matters that you’ve addressed in the past? I really think it’s time to deal with them as a matter of priority. If not for yourself or for your marriage, then for your kids. Children learn a lot about relationships and processing emotions from their parents and living in a loveless home with parents that are emotionally distant from each other and a father than can’t emotionally connect with anyone could have a life long effect on them.

Heart Break Kid

Sorry if I missed it but counseling? If anything just to create an environment to talk to each other.

I’m not going to say separate or divorce but real discussion is needed on your future together.

IHeartShoes

nodesireleft wrote: »

Yes I think we are both broken in our own way.

nodesireleft wrote: »

Yes I think we are both broken in our own way.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I’m struggling to understand why you’re being so hard on your wife. By your own admission you checked out of your marriage and weren’t available to her. She recovered to the extent that she could. Without you. She didn’t cheat or have an affair. She lived some fantasy life online or in her head and didn’t actually follow through. Unless I’ve missed something? You only know about it because you invaded her privacy. Had you reengaged with her and re discovered your sex life and relationship in general, you would be none the wiser about the fantasy and could be very happy.

Instead it sounds like you gave her a terrible time about it without trying to understand why she did what she did. So you pull away even more despite her best efforts. She sounds to be utterly devastated to the point that she’s no longer interested in her own appearance. That doesn’t happen easily. After evicerating her, you pull yourself together. Now you’re threatening affairs which is far worse than anything you have judged her for in the past, if you do follow through. There is no way she is not picking up on your total lack of concern or interest in her.

The poor woman, living with that She must feel so utterly alone. You should give her the opportunity to meet someone else that will love and value her as she deserves. She clearly won’t have the confidence to leave herself, in her current state..

I hope you do figure out how to be happy, for your family’s sake.

Good luck.

jimd2

IHeartShoes wrote: »

I am so sorry for your loss.

I’m struggling to understand why you’re being so hard on your wife. By your own admission you checked out of your marriage and weren’t available to her. She recovered to the extent that she could. Without you. She didn’t cheat or have an affair. She lived some fantasy life online or in her head and didn’t actually follow through. Unless I’ve missed something? You only know about it because you invaded her privacy. Had you reengaged with her and re discovered your sex life and relationship in general, you would be none the wiser about the fantasy and could be very happy.

I hope you do figure out how to be happy, for your family’s sake.

Good luck.

I agree.

I think you should try and think through the whole thing from your wife's point of view.

Then arrange a holiday for the two of you to somewhere you can get away from everything - possibly where ye went on honeymoon.

Try and recalibrate your relationship considering such a difficult time that ye had - remember neither of you has physically cheated - yet.

See a councillor together.

If, after that, you still feel the same then you should consider separating. But try and give it one last go first. Try and find the woman you loved again. The grass often looks greener further away.

GingerLily

I feel so sorry for your wife after reading this, the poor woman

ash23

You seem to try and validate your own poor behaviour at the time of the loss of your child by saying that at least you were honest.
While you shut yourself off from your wife and other children, she was left dealing with not only her own grief which was on a par to yours, but also that of your children. And you also left her dealing with the finances etc.
She found her own way of coping with an emotionally detached husband by creating a fantasy and getting fit.
You then berated her for that fantasy. Perhaps she emotionally feels she is better off letting herself go so that she won't be tempted to cheat in her sexless relationship?
In the meantime you are still holding her fantasy world over her head and she is trying to make things work and make up for it. And you are yet again distancing yourself, chatting up women and contemplating affairs with no guilt at all.

You have not been a husband to your wife for a long time. And I don't think you will be.
Separating is hard but if you truly lack any respect or desire for your wife, you must end it. It would be better for you both in the long run.

LegacyUser

People are saying "I shut myself off". I didn't "shut myself off". My brain shut itself off. There is a huge difference. One implies I chose to do it. I didn't. I knew it was doing it. I told my wife that I couldn't handle her grief and the kids grief as well as my own. I know I let her down in that way but I didn't tell her "of course I'm there for you, don't be stupid" like she did with me. I told her I couldn't handle it without cracking myself.

In every other way I was there. I couldn't handle my wife crying every evening for months and months on coming home from work. I ran the household, did everything with the kids etc. Except for the finances and shopping.

Lots of sympathy rightly for my wife. None for me. Not that I want any exactly, but this is the same thing that happens any time I tell anyone about what happened. How terrible it must be for my wife. Well guess what, when your kid dies it's terrible on the father too. I realised for the first time how female centred the world actually is, despite everything you read in the media. Everything counselling related was directed primarily at her. Clearly that didn't work. Even at Barresttown they only recently introduced a 1 hour segment for the fathers only. All the other segments are women only or mixed. That hour helped me more than anything else.

And most other men are useless to talk about something like this with.

It wasn't the fantasy world that bothered me so much as the lack of any communication about her having such serious problems.

This fantasy world that I had no part in went on for several years. I would have understood if she had even once said she needed help or that she was not ok mentally. Or tried to communicate in any way whatsoever verbally, despite me asking her so many times what the problem was. But she never did. Not once. Just lie after lie. Also financially, she lied about the state of our finances. Again I should have been more on top of it but I trusted her. Suffering mentally is not a choice. Constantly lying is.

zapper55

100% to iheartshoes post. Also you barely touched on the fact that you closed up emotionally after the death of your child leaving her to look after the other children's grief. I don't know how that didn't break her to be honest. Maybe this is a delayed reaction .

heretothere

Is there anything you can do to try and give it one last shot? I like the idea of going to the place you went on your honeymoon.

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your child, that's something no parent should have to go through.

osarusan

What do you actually want the outcome to be? Your post doesn't say, and I am not sure you know yourself.

Do you still hope that what you once had can be rekindled? Or is that something that is just done with?

5 years from now, what do you want your life to be like? Still married? Separated/divorced and living apart?

nikkibikki

nodesireleft wrote:

Lots of sympathy rightly for my wife. None for me. Not that I want any exactly, but this is the same thing that happens any time I tell anyone about what happened. How terrible it must be for my wife. Well guess what, when your kid dies it's terrible on the father too. I realised for the first time how female centred the world actually is, despite everything you read in the media. Everything counselling related was directed primarily at her. Clearly that didn't work. Even at Barresttown they only recently introduced a 1 hour segment for the fathers only. All the other segments are women only or mixed. That hour helped me more than anything else.

Lots of people began their posts saying they were sorry for your loss. I honestly don't know how any parent copes with the loss of a child. Doesn't even bare thinking about. She was dealing with her own grief, the grief of your other kids and an emotionally unavailable husband. You decided how you were going to deal with your grief. You could've gotten counselling yourself then. You didn't have to wait for it be be given to you by Barretstown. Your wife had no choice. If you'd gotten help then, you would've been more able to support her. And her you.

She created a fantasy in her head, didn't act on it and after you found out, you went off chatting up other women. How disrespectful of you. Not fair on the other women either.

nodesireleft wrote:

And most other men are useless to talk about something like this with.

That's not the fault of women though. It probably explains why counselling as you see it is women centred.

nodesireleft wrote:

It wasn't the fantasy world that bothered me so much as the lack of any communication about her having such serious problems.

You were the one who self confessed here that you shut yourself off. You can't really berate her for lack of communication when you were the one to instigate it. Like, what's the point in being in a relationship with someone if ye can't support one another?

When you talk about how you couldn't deal with your wife crying every morning etc and couldn't deal with the grief of your remaining children, you honestly sound completely self centred. Not saying you are that type of person, just how it comes across.

Get yourself some grief counselling. Whether or not it's too late to save your marriage, only time will tell.

ManOfMystery

You've both gone through a terrible experience, probably the worst one a parent can have, and have dealt with it in different ways. And this has had a detrimental impact on your marriage.

I don't think blame should be attributed in a situation like this, e.g. saying you should have been more emotionally available or she shouldn't have used a diary as an outlet or whatever. There is no textbook which tells people how to handle grief, and beyond that, there is absolutely no way to predict how someone will react to the death of a child. A lot of the time, the overwhelming emotion and emptiness is beyond your control and many people who have suffered such a loss will comment that they feel like they're just a passenger along for the ride, with little or no control over what direction they're being taken in.

What's done is done, all you can control now is what happens going forward. And whilst it sounds like your marriage may be over, I really think you should both look at grief counselling and also marriage counselling. There are a lot of issues at play here which have never been properly addressed and surely it's worth one last shot to see if anything can be salvaged?

osarusan

ManOfMystery wrote: »

You've both gone through a terrible experience, probably the worst one a parent can have, and have dealt with it in different ways. And this has had a detrimental impact on your marriage.

I don't think blame should be attributed in a situation like this, e.g. saying you should have been more emotionally available or she shouldn't have used a diary as an outlet or whatever. There is no/i] textbook which tells people how to handle grief, and beyond that, there is absolutely no way to predict how someone will react to the death of a child. A lot of the time, the overwhelming emotion and emptiness is beyond your control and many people who have suffered such a loss will comment that they feel like they're just a passenger along for the ride, with little or no control over what direction they're being taken in.

What's done is done, all you can control now is what happens going forward. And whilst it sounds like your marriage may be over, I really think you should both look at grief counselling and also marriage counselling. There are a lot of issues at play here which have never been properly addressed and surely it's worth one last shot to see if anything can be salvaged?

I'd agree with this.

People grieve and deal with loss in different ways. The loss of a child must be particularly devastating. There's no 'right' way to react.

Seems like both partners grieved in their own ways, threw themselves into different things (exercise and work) and have grown apart as a result.

Whether they can now grow back together, if they even want to, is the question.

OP, you've said that what you really want is to live alone and just do your own thing, without any relationships. I'd make sure that is what you really want, and isn't actually some reaction to your relationship problems. It is possible that it's a fantasy you seek refuge in?

If it is what you really want, and you are sure about it, then there really isn't much hope for the relationship at all.

nodesireleft

nodesireleft wrote: »

And most other men are useless to talk about something like this with.

Men are trained from a very, very early age to regulate their emotions strictly. We live in a society that has no interest in men's emotions and no ability to access them properly. Sure, some men go one to express themselves via songs, novels, etc but most (to quote Thoreau) "live lives of quiet desperation". You, unfortunately, have come across how this reality has been institutionalised in our health system, and I'm sorry for that because it can only have compounded your loss. Ime, men will not talk face to face about these things, but will talk side by side (ie, attending a match, building something together, going for a run) and the recent Men's Sheds movement seems to recognise that.

All that might not relate to your original question OP, but (again, in my experience, and I've never suffered a loss like yours) we don't get over grief, it changes us and becomes part of who we now are. You have been given a terrible burden to carry, as has your wife.

LegacyUser

osarusan wrote: »

I'd agree with this.

People grieve and deal with loss in different ways. The loss of a child must be particularly devastating. There's no 'right' way to react.

Seems like both partners grieved in their own ways, threw themselves into different things (exercise and work) and have grown apart as a result.

Whether they can now grow back together, if they even want to, is the question.

OP, you've said that what you really want is to live alone and just do your own thing, without any relationships. I'd make sure that is what you really want, and isn't some actually reaction to your relationship problems. It is possible that it's a fantasy you seek refuge in?

If it is what you really want, and you are sure about it, then there really isn't much hope for the relationship at all.

Honestly ... I don't know what I want. I think maybe deep down I still love my wife, but I'm not sure. There has been so much pain and baggage on both sides I really don't know.

I have a great relationship with my eldest child, who emotionally is more like me than my wife. My younger child not as much.

LegacyUser

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

Really sorry about the loss of your child. That obviously had a very deep and lasting effect on you both and I think on your part there are a lot of unresolved issues there.

You shut down emotionally and I’m not so sure you ever really opened back up for business. It’s quite telling that you say you find love and affection and emotion “fake” - you haven’t allowed yourself to experience them for so long. You closed the door to your wife a long time ago and her betrayal of your trust seemed to serve as validation for doing that.

Have you received grief counselling and if so, are these matters that you’ve addressed in the past? I really think it’s time to deal with them as a matter of priority. If not for yourself or for your marriage, then for your kids. Children learn a lot about relationships and processing emotions from their parents and living in a loveless home with parents that are emotionally distant from each other and a father than can’t emotionally connect with anyone could have a life long effect on them.

Thanks.

No I haven't apart from shortly after the death of our child.

LegacyUser

nikkibikki wrote: »

You decided how you were going to deal with your grief. You could've gotten counselling yourself then. You didn't have to wait for it be be given to you by Barretstown. Your wife had no choice. If you'd gotten help then, you would've been more able to support her. And her you.

I find this insulting. Why did I have a choice that my wife didn't have? How did her grief "just happen" to her and she had "no choice" and how I reacted was "a choice" and I had "all the options"???

What stopped her getting counselling or doing anything I did?

Why was it up to me exclusively to support her? She had lots of support from other women. I had none. What about us supporting each other?

LegacyUser

OP you say everything was focused on your wife but did you ask for help? You say your brain closed off as you couldn't deal with it and everyone does handle grief differently and people can mistakenly assume if people don't show a visual sign of the grief like crying then the must be ok. This isn't a men vs women thing this is a societal reaction to a very hard subject matter. My brother broke down after our dad died suddenly while I (I'm female btw) felt as the oldest I had to hold it together - I ended up having a break down over a year later and got a mixed response as several people dismissed my grief then as surely after a year I should be over it.

You have several issues here you need to sort out and they need to be separated from each other. it doesn't matter how long ago your child passed away you can speak to someone now about your grief over it. You've not dealt with so focus on that. Put your marriage etc to side for now and focus on looking after you. Then look at your marriage, if it's not working then end, don't use the kids or money as an excuse. You'll deal with the money issue after you make the choice about your marriage but trust me as a child of divorce I was a lot happier when my parents separated (as they were) then the few years they 'stuck it out for the kids'

Big Bag of Chips

nodesireleft wrote: »

I find this insulting. Why did I have a choice that my wife didn't have? How did her grief "just happen" to her and she had "no choice" and how I reacted was "a choice" and I had "all the options"???

I tihnk what the poster meant by this was that you decide you couldn't handle your wife and your children's grief and you physically and emotionally removed yourself from the situation, leaving your wife there to cope with her grief, your other children's and also deal with the fact that you removed yourself from them all. Your wife had no choice but deal with everything in front of her. You made a conscious decision to shut yourself off.

As others have said there is no right or wrong way to deal with the death of a child. So your wife isn't at fault. Nor are you. You both handled a horrible situation. And you both abandoned each other and looked for comfort elsewhere. Probably not all that unusual.

You sound very angry, and your anger seems to be directed at your wife. At women in general (who you say counselling etc it aimed at). Traditional counselling probably is aimed more at women, as you say yourself, because women are more likely to talk openly to each other. The fact that women wil talk to each other shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. I think men are becoming better though, and that is why groups are now being set up and not only being set up, but having regular attendance.

Communication in your marriage fell apart. Communication in lots of long terms relationships can suffer, but particularly after a trauma like you suffered. Talking to each other about it is too hard and too upsetting. Seeing your wife crying is upsetting (although it is a perfectly normal response for her), so you avoided it. You both avoided it. Communicating with each other was too difficult. Avoiding that and being "someone else" with others was so much easier.

This isn't any one person's fault. But I think you (maybe both of you) are trying to lay the blame at the other person's feet. Both of you had fault. But both of you had reasons for behaving the way you did.

LegacyUser

can't log in wrote: »

OP you say everything was focused on your wife but did you ask for help? You say your brain closed off as you couldn't deal with it and everyone does handle grief differently and people can mistakenly assume if people don't show a visual sign of the grief like crying then the must be ok. This isn't a men vs women thing this is a societal reaction to a very hard subject matter. My brother broke down after our dad died suddenly while I (I'm female btw) felt as the oldest I had to hold it together - I ended up having a break down over a year later and got a mixed response as several people dismissed my grief then as surely after a year I should be over it.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It wasn't that I shut myself off emotionally and sat in a corner feeling sorry for myself - I kept everything running. The only way I could. It wasn't because I was an emotionless asshole, it was because I had such a dam of emotions inside me that if that burst I would have to be committed to a mental asylum. When everyone else is falling apart, someone has to keep things together.

I didn't ask for help .... I had no idea how or who to ask for help. My eldest, who was 13 at the time, went for a couple of sessions of counselling which seemed to be helping, and then after a few sessions the counsellor announced she had a job offer in the UK, which she knew about when she started counselling with my child !!!! We also had a counsellor assigned to us who was OK, but didn't really address anything, only superficially.

After the online diary thing we went to a counsellor at my insistence - my wife was totally against all types of counselling - and she wrote her a note for antidepressants and that was pretty much it. The antidepressants did help by the way.

I tried to voice my concerns but they were brushed off. Then she told us a completely inappropriate story apropos of nothing of another one of her patients who committed suicide.

So forgive me if I don't have a lot of faith in counsellors.

SusieBlue

You are such a hypocrite.
You mentally checked out of your marriage & have emotionally neglected your wife for a long time, and now you feel betrayed that she wrote a diary about her fantasies?
Are you serious?

Such double standards here its ridiculous. I understand you did what you did for your own sanity, but maybe she did what she did for the same reason.
It was a diary of her fantasies, she didn't cheat on you or break your marriage vows.
I bet she could really have done with your love and support during that difficult time in your lives but you weren't there for her. If anything, you are the one that betrayed her.
Its her I feel sorry for in all this.

The way you are treating her and the power you are exerting over her is shameful. She sounds like a broken woman.
You are forgetting that she stuck by you when you were emotionally unavailable to her, for years at length.
Perhaps you should show her the same consideration she showed you when you were the one who made a mistake.
If not, please give her a chance to be in a relationship with someone who will love, support and nurture her and end your marriage.

LegacyUser

SusieBlue wrote: »

You are such a hypocrite.
You mentally checked out of your marriage & have emotionally neglected your wife for a long time, and now you feel betrayed that she wrote a diary about her fantasies?
Are you serious?

Such double standards here its ridiculous. I understand you did what you did for your own sanity, but maybe she did what she did for the same reason.
It was a diary of her fantasies, she didn't cheat on you or break your marriage vows.
I bet she could really have done with your love and support during that difficult time in your lives but you weren't there for her. If anything, you are the one that betrayed her.
Its her I feel sorry for in all this.

I never hid anything from her. And it was one very specific fantasy. If I had obsessed for years about another woman and ignored my wife was that better than what actually happened?

The way you are treating her and the power you are exerting over her is shameful. She sounds like a broken woman.

What power? She controls herself and also controls the finances. She is free to do what she wants. I have rarely even raised my voice to her. Stop projecting your nonsense beliefs on me. In fact she is the controlling one in our relationship ... very rigid in her habits and I am expected to call if 5 minutes late. I am very easygoing.

You are forgetting that she stuck by you when you were emotionally unavailable to her, for years at length.

I stuck by her too for years - never once mentioning if the kids were late for school or the house was a mess, the bank account was empty again, or nothing to eat in the house. I just quietly got on with everything. How dare you make assumptions about me and her.

Controlling ... is that all you understand about the human condition ?

ash23

OP I have the utmost sympathy for both you and your wife over the death of your child.
From reading your post though, you excuse your own behaviour but not hers and I think that is why people are expressing more sympathy for your wife.
It's not that her grief was more or less than yours. But you did something to cope and she did something to cope. She forgave you but you didn't forgive her and you continue to use her escape from grief against her. And use it as an excuse for your poor behaviour now.
That is why people are saying she is suffering. Not about your child and the amount of grief for mother or father. But because she shouldered the burden alone and her reaction to all of that is being used by you now as a reason to be cold and cheat when she has forgiven your reaction and is trying to make things work and make up for her actions.

LegacyUser

ash23 wrote: »

OP I have the utmost sympathy for both you and your wife over the death of your child.
From reading your post though, you excuse your own behaviour but not hers and I think that is why people are expressing more sympathy for your wife.

I'm not excusing my own behaviour. At all. Especially the part about flirting with other women ... which was pathetic at best.

What I find surprising from many replies is that I am automatically the bad guy and she is the victim, even though this was MY child that died. Not just hers.

I would have understood if she had come to me and said she was struggling and needed help - in a reasonably calm manner, or even wrote me an email or a letter, as I did all of the above with her, but she didn't do any of it.

I get it was a coping mechanism. I don't blame her for that.

The whole fake thing I referred to earlier, there is a lot of it in this post. So called "empathy" which is just identifying 100% with the woman and 0% with the man - and projecting things like controlling behaviour on to me which is total nonsense. It's really that love for a woman is that the man does everything she wants and she does nothing in return, and anything wrong in the relationship is the mans fault. Sorry, not for me.

If anything I should have taken control more.

Big Bag of Chips

Op, your wife isn't here posting. So we are replying to you. And we are replying telling you what you can/could have done. Or maybe trying to explain from her perspective etc There is no point telling you what she should have done, because she's not here asking advice and telling you how she should have handled things would be pointless. She did what she did. You did what you did. You're the one asking for advice, so we can only advise you.

What advice are you looking for? It seems you want to end the marriage without actually ending it. Do you want to go off and have an affair/flings? Or would you honeslty like to end it and have a clean break from each other? So that you can both start again and do whatever it is you feel you need to do? Do you want to discuss with her that your marriage is over but that for financial reasons you cannot live separately? Whatever you do your options are (try to) communicate with your wife or don't.

You have both been through the worst possible experience parents can go through, and you are both looking at this from your own perspectives. If you oculd both actually get down to talking to each other you might both be very surprised to find out what has been and is going on in each other's heads.

Of course, that's assuming that is something you both want...

ash23

nodesireleft wrote: »

I'm not excusing my own behaviour. At all. Especially the part about flirting with other women ... which was pathetic at best.

What I find surprising from many replies is that I am automatically the bad guy and she is the victim, even though this was MY child that died. Not just hers.

I would have understood if she had come to me and said she was struggling and needed help - in a reasonably calm manner, or even wrote me an email or a letter, as I did all of the above with her, but she didn't do any of it.

I get it was a coping mechanism. I don't blame her for that.

The whole fake thing I referred to earlier, there is a lot of it in this post. So called "empathy" which is just identifying 100% with the woman and 0% with the man - and projecting things like controlling behaviour on to me which is total nonsense. It's really that love for a woman is that the man does everything she wants and she does nothing in return, and anything wrong in the relationship is the mans fault. Sorry, not for me.

If anything I should have taken control more.

Ok OP, leaving all else aside, your wife is currently trying to mend your marriage. You are looking for a way out without the hassle of actually separating. You speak about her as if she is nothing to you, you don't fancy her and you don't respect her. So yes, she has sympathy on that front alone.

If the roles were reversed and a woman was posting this about her partner/husband I'd be saying she's being selfish and that her partner deserves someone who actually loves and cares and respects him and that she should end it and give them that opportunity.

LegacyUser

ash23 wrote: »

Ok OP, leaving all else aside, your wife is currently trying to mend your marriage. You are looking for a way out without the hassle of actually separating. You speak about her as if she is nothing to you, you don't fancy her and you don't respect her. So yes, she has sympathy on that front alone.

If the roles were reversed and a woman was posting this about her partner/husband I'd be saying she's being selfish and that her partner deserves someone who actually loves and cares and respects him and that she should end it and give them that opportunity.

That's a fair comment.

nikkibikki

nodesireleft wrote:

I find this insulting. Why did I have a choice that my wife didn't have? How did her grief "just happen" to her and she had "no choice" and how I reacted was "a choice" and I had "all the options"???

Big Bag of Chips wrote:

I tihnk what the poster meant by this was that you decide you couldn't handle your wife and your children's grief and you physically and emotionally removed yourself from the situation, leaving your wife there to cope with her grief, your other children's and also deal with the fact that you removed yourself from them all. Your wife had no choice but deal with everything in front of her. You made a conscious decision to shut yourself off.

Yep pretty much summed it up. Thanks BBOC.

nodesireleft wrote:

Why was it up to me exclusively to support her? She had lots of support from other women. I had none. What about us supporting each other?

Look at the last 3words of the post you quoted. I wrote "and her you." But you said yourself you told her you couldn't deal with her grief. Ideally you should support each other but you couldn't support her or the kids. You both could've and should've done things differently. Yes we all deal with grief differently and you found one way for you to try deal with it. All actions have consequences. Whether they are involuntary or not.

nikkibikki

nodesireleft wrote:

I stuck by her too for years - never once mentioning if the kids were late for school or the house was a mess, the bank account was empty again, or nothing to eat in the house. I just quietly got on with everything. How dare you make assumptions about me and her.

Maybe you should have spoken up if it was something that bothered you. The kids are your responsibility too.

nodesireleft wrote:

I would have understood if she had come to me and said she was struggling and needed help - in a reasonably calm manner, or even wrote me an email or a letter, as I did all of the above with her, but she didn't do any of it.

How could she come to you when you outright told her you couldn't deal with her grief? Tbh I think it's a pretty unforgivable thing to say in my book.

She's making an effort to fix things. Are you? Do you even want to? Get yourself some grief counselling pronto. You might feel a bit differently after it. Things might be clearer for you. You are so angry at pretty much most posters here which isn't fair. You asked for advice and we are taking the time to give it even though we know it's not what you want to hear.

ElizaBennett

The op should be getting a lot more support than he is. He's suffered a lot. And he's the one on here looking for help. If we go back to the original post his fundamental point is that he doesn't care about his wife anymore. She stirs nothing in him. Is there a way back from this? Is the problem deeper than just superficial looks and feelings and has he lost the ability to function in a relationship? If someone has gone through similar feelings of being out of love but finding a way back that would be a helpful thing to share. Is it possible that anti depressants would help you op? Maybe something to consider to help you out of this chasm to be able to see clearly. If the love and respect are really gone for good then I think you both have to accept that

IHeartShoes

I'm not sure anyone is sympathising with your wife more, for the loss of your child. My empathy for her does not relate to that. It relates to how her life appears now. Which is without support, love or a physical relationship. Much as yours was, but it appears that you chose to live like that. She did not. She did the best she could. I'm certainly not suggesting she is some paragon of virtue here. No doubt you have been let down at times, but it does appear that she was left adrift and developed her own coping mechanism. She was castigated for behaviours that appear lesser than yours are now. Now she is further punished by your total, self declared, rejection of her as a wife and lover and she does seem to be turning in on herself, left with no alternatives. Without knowing the woman, she does sound to be in excruciating pain. First the loss of your child, followed by the probable loss of her husband. Both outside of her control.


Your own self awareness here seems a little lacking? Where is the personal accountability? Even if you disagree with much that has been muted, it cannot all be her fault which seems to be what you are suggesting. The expression 'if enough people tell you, you are drunk it's time to lie down' springs to mind.


The fact is, the loss of a child has torn many a relationship apart. Maybe yours is beyond repair but if I were leaving a relationship in similar circumstances, then I would want to know that I had done my level best to retrieve the situation before pulling the trigger.


I genuinely wish you all the best OP. No doubt you are living your own pain. Good luck to you and again, my sincere sympathies for your loss.

SusieBlue

nodesireleft wrote: »

I never hid anything from her. And it was one very specific fantasy. If I had obsessed for years about another woman and ignored my wife was that better than what actually happened?

What power? She controls herself and also controls the finances. She is free to do what she wants. I have rarely even raised my voice to her. Stop projecting your nonsense beliefs on me. In fact she is the controlling one in our relationship ... very rigid in her habits and I am expected to call if 5 minutes late. I am very easygoing.

I stuck by her too for years - never once mentioning if the kids were late for school or the house was a mess, the bank account was empty again, or nothing to eat in the house. I just quietly got on with everything. How dare you make assumptions about me and her.

Controlling ... is that all you understand about the human condition ?

It sounds like there was a pair of you in it, to be honest.
You both coped with the dreadful situation you had to go through in your own respective ways. The only difference I see is you are holding the way she did it against her.
You are making excuses for yourself while casting judgement on her, when both of you have made mistakes.
There is no textbook way of dealing with such a traumatic event, you both did your best, and that's all you could do. I don't think there was any malice or ill intentions from either of you when you were going through that time.

But you are firmly resting the full responsibility for your relationship issues on her shoulders, while taking no responsibility yourself.
Looking back in hindsight, at how you emotionally shut her out for such a long time, can you not understand why she might have had these fantasies?
I'm not condoning them, but can you not see that maybe how YOU treated HER (which you had your reasons for) caused her to feel like that?

Despite all this, it sounds like she still wants to mend your marriage.
It sounds like you have absolutely no interest in this at all, which is fair enough and absolutely your prerogative.

It would just be much kinder to let her go than to continue living like this.
If you would truly feel no guilt or remorse and are tempted to cheat, just put her out of her misery now and end things before there is even more bitterness and resentment built up between you.

.......

I dont understand why you are so angry with you wife, or women in general.

You bothered suffered a terrible loss and you checked out. Thats how you coped.

She coped by having fantasies that she wrote down. You snooped and found them.

But she didnt do anything wrong? Why is her having fantasies so repugnant to you?

You are now belittling her for approaching menopause and putting on weight.

It just sounds like you hate the woman. I genuinely cant see why you would stay in the marriage and continue to damage her and your kids when you dont even like her?

For your kids sake - end the marriage, let her move on and be with someone who cares for her.

Bigbagofcans

'No desire for my wife' is a very bold statement to make.
If you really feel you have none for her anymore then you have two choices:

1) Stay with her and live a life without desiring the person you are with. Some people can stay in relationships even if they're not in love with that person.

2) Leave and go your own way/find someone else.

LegacyUser

nodesireleft wrote: »

So forgive me if I don't have a lot of faith in counsellors.

OP your looking at counselling that your child got and your wife and yourself had, you need to step away from them and focus on yourself. Speak to your GP about grief counselling but go into it ready to be open to it. It's not going to help if you go in already decided it's not going to help. You posted here because you do want something to change. Counselling isn't one size fits all, you might have to go to a few people to find the right fit for you. Step back from whats happening with your marriage, with your kids etc etc you are no good to them if you aren't happy with yourself. Even if you had the money to separate from your wife I don't think it would actually fix anything, you'd just be the same living in a different place. Put your relationship with your wife on the back burner. Speak to your GP and if they aren't helpful speak to a different GP. Keep going until you get the help that you need then re address the external issues in your life. If your wife doesn't want to get counselling, isn't willing to make a change to help your marriage then at that stage look at what your options are for separating.

Do not stay threading water because you think it's good for your kids. It's not, they are learning from both of you the bad way to handle emotions and how to behave in relationships. it will impact on them as adults when they are in relationships so first thing in the morning make an appointment with your GP.

nikkibikki

Bigbagofcans wrote:

1) Stay with her and live a life without desiring the person you are with. Some people can stay in relationships even if they're not in love with that person.

They can but it's unfair to expect the other party to do it too without knowing how they truly feel.

khaldrogo

I have a sneaky suspicion that your opinion would be absolutely the other way round if the genders were reversed.....

ash23 wrote:

You seem to try and validate your own poor behaviour at the time of the loss of your child by saying that at least you were honest. While you shut yourself off from your wife and other children, she was left dealing with not only her own grief which was on a par to yours, but also that of your children. And you also left her dealing with the finances etc. She found her own way of coping with an emotionally detached husband by creating a fantasy and getting fit. You then berated her for that fantasy. Perhaps she emotionally feels she is better off letting herself go so that she won't be tempted to cheat in her sexless relationship? In the meantime you are still holding her fantasy world over her head and she is trying to make things work and make up for it. And you are yet again distancing yourself, chatting up women and contemplating affairs with no guilt at all.

LegacyUser

IHeartShoes wrote: »

Much as yours was, but it appears that you chose to live like that. She did not. She did the best she could.

I realise there is something I didn't say. My period of being unable to handle the grief lasted about 6 months.
I take 100% responsibility for that. She completely cut herself off from me during that period for a couple of years. It was during this time that I tried to re establish communication but it didn't work. It was a full 5 years before we had any semblance of a relationship, or I or the kids could have anything resembling a normal conversation with her, and it was around that time that this ongoing fantasy came to light. You have NO IDEA how hard this 5 years was on me and the kids. To this day I don't know how I survived it without cracking. Maybe I did crack. Here I am pouring my heart out to anonymous strangers.

IHeartShoes wrote: »

Your own self awareness here seems a little lacking? Where is the personal accountability? Even if you disagree with much that has been muted, it cannot all be her fault which seems to be what you are suggesting. The expression 'if enough people tell you, you are drunk it's time to lie down' springs to mind.

I am not blaming her or saying I am some superior being, and believe me I feel worse about my failure than any of you are trying to make me feel. It is what it is. If you shoot me in a moment of insanity and regret it later I am still shot.

IHeartShoes wrote: »

The fact is, the loss of a child has torn many a relationship apart. Maybe yours is beyond repair but if I were leaving a relationship in similar circumstances, then I would want to know that I had done my level best to retrieve the situation before pulling the trigger.

I would if I only knew what that was. How do you rekindle no feelings for someone? Maybe she feels nothing for me, or even hates me and is going through the motions .... I have no idea, as that was her default setting for years. She was good at faking it. She certainly wouldn't tell me. See my problem?

IHeartShoes wrote: »

I genuinely wish you all the best OP. No doubt you are living your own pain. Good luck to you and again, my sincere sympathies for your loss.

Thanks

LegacyUser

....... wrote: »

I dont understand why you are so angry with you wife, or women in general.

I don't hate her .... just indifferent to her. Like a roommate. I don't hate women in general either. There are good ones and bad ones, just like men.

....... wrote: »

You bothered suffered a terrible loss and you checked out. Thats how you coped.

She coped by having fantasies that she wrote down. You snooped and found them.

But she didnt do anything wrong? Why is her having fantasies so repugnant to you?

Nothing whatsoever ... if our relationship was open and honest. I encouraged her to tell me her fantasies. She had none according to herself. I will say that reading about how she is thinking about some other guy when you are having sex with your spouse is kind of repugnant to me. She even told me she would consider that cheating if I did it before this all came to light. A prude in the bedroom with her husband.

....... wrote: »

You are now belittling her for approaching menopause and putting on weight.

I never belittled her about it. I mentioned it on here as part of the story. I give her every encouragement, and never comment on her weight.

....... wrote: »

It just sounds like you hate the woman. I genuinely cant see why you would stay in the marriage and continue to damage her and your kids when you dont even like her?

For your kids sake - end the marriage, let her move on and be with someone who cares for her.

Maybe that's for the best. I love my kids and they love me. They didn't deserve any of this either. The eldest is beyond custody battles at 21 and has moved out last year, so its only the younger one that would struggle. I meet the eldest on a regular basis for a catch up and we are very close, more so than my wife and her.

MintyMagnum

khaldrogo wrote: »

I have a sneaky suspicion that your opinion would be absolutely the other way round if the genders were reversed.....

And I believe it is worse for a mother to lose the child she grew, bore and nursed with her own body.

.......

khaldrogo wrote: »

I have a sneaky suspicion that your opinion would be absolutely the other way round if the genders were reversed.....

I really dont see what the genders have to do with it.

A terrible thing happened a married couple. One spouse mentally checked out and emotionally detached from the other. Later that spouse discovered the other had written down fantasties of sex with someone else. And that seems to have induced an anger and emotional detachment that is even greater than before.

I think youll find if you read the personal issues section of boards.ie that huge sympathy is given to men whose wives emotionally check out on them and they are usually advised to end the marriage.

I would advise either the OP or his wife to end the marriage. No good comes of people staying in a relationship where they hate the other person. The kids will pick up on that and form very dysfunctional notions of relationships. Id give that advise regardless of the OP being male or female.

I genuinely cannot see why the OP perceives a big deception from his wives private fantasies. We all have inner worlds. She didnt cheat on him. He emotionally detached from her and she stayed in the marriage. Now she is being blamed for thinking about sex with someone else. Im not sure what he expected a healthy red blooded woman to do while she was stuck with a husband who emotionally checked out? Meanwhile he is thinking of having affairs and he cant see the double standard there?

Faith

I am so sorry for your loss, OP. The loss of a child is probably the worst thing you can experience in this life.

I'm going to suggest that none of this is about your wife. It's about grief. The grief that you still carry around with you because it has never been processed. I suggest this because your posts are so utterly dispassionate that I don't think you're really experiencing any emotions properly, because that grief has become so massive that you can't even see it any more.

What most people don't realise is that the struggle against an emotion is where the trouble often comes from. Experiencing our emotions is key, not avoiding them. You never let yourself grieve. You shut down, you isolated yourself, you coped by running the household, but it sounds like you never truly experienced the grief. It sounds like that is utterly terrifying to you. You said something like "If I'd let it out, I would have ended up in a mental hospital". You wouldn't have, though. You'd have cried and cried and wailed and raged, but one day, you'd cry less. Then less again the next day, and so on as you worked through the grief and processed it. Instead, without meaning to, you've worked around the grief until this day. It's like building a house on faulty foundations - day-to-day it might seem fine, but eventually it'll all crumble down.

I think the only way you will be able to connect with your wife again is to grieve properly. Possibly with your wife, in time, sharing your pain, but you probably need to start alone. You may need to seek out a suitably qualified professional to help you let this out, as it sounds like you have buried it so deeply that it'll be really hard to allow yourself to experience these emotions, but you really need to. Even if you think you have, I'd respectfully suggest that there's a lot inside you that needs to be worked through.