Government using chemical weapons on their own citizens

riemann

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46492070

When did it become the norm now for Government forces to use chemical weapons on their own citizens in response to the simple act of protesting?

Where is the outrage?

ShRT

Mustard gas is a chemical weapon. Tear gas.....not so much.....

Tell me how

Did you just turn on the news for the first time today?

"Simple act of protesting" is debatable.

Peatys

Tear gas?
Your ignorance is an insult to the victims of real chemical weapon usage.

The genuine protest ended once the anarchists took to the streets

Potential-Monke

There have been a number of confrontations. Some protesters have been seen smashing shop fronts, painting walls with graffiti and setting fire to cars.

I can hear the Dublin one shouting 'It's a peaceful protest!'. Unfortunately, with all protests these days, once it starts getting traction it gets highjacked by people who only intend on causing trouble or looting. The cops are most definitely needed. Is it heavy handed? Who knows, I'm not there. But from the few clips I've seen, the police are being attacked and responding in kind. However, I do know there is always 3 sides to a story, so I'm not picking a side, just giving my opinion.

Guy:Incognito

If you consider tear gas a chemical weapon attack, I hate to break it to you but it happens in a huge number of countries all the time.

antoinolachtnai

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in wartime as far as I know.

Tell me how

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in wartime as far as I know.

But accepted as part of riot control.

From wikipedia :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riot control
Certain lachrymatory agents are often used by police to force compliance, most notably tear gas. In some countries (e.g., Finland, Australia, and the United States), another common substance is mace. The self-defense weapon form of mace is based on pepper spray, and comes in small spray cans, and versions including CS are manufactured for police use. Xylyl bromide, CN and CS are the oldest of these agents, and CS is the most widely used. CN has the most recorded toxicity. Tear gas exposure is a standard in Australia for military, police and prison officer training programs.

TheValeyard

riemann

ShRT wrote: »

Mustard gas is a chemical weapon. Tear gas.....not so much.....

At least you'll learn something today. Isn't education fun.

Link.

riemann

Peatys wrote: »

Tear gas?
Your ignorance is an insult to the victims of real chemical weapon usage.

The genuine protest ended once the anarchists took to the streets

Your ignorance is a testament to your personality.

Link.

Ten of Swords

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in wartime

So?

France is not at war or did I miss something?

antoinolachtnai

That’s correct. It’s not at war. Therefore the Geneva Convention does not apply.

Fann Linn

Ten of Swords wrote: »

So?

France is not at war or did I miss something?

At war with itself and Macron caved in fairly quickly, following in the footsteps of previous French capitulations.

Wheeliebin30

riemann wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46492070

When did it become the norm now for Government forces to use chemical weapons on their own citizens in response to the simple act of protesting?

Where is the outrage?

I take it you’re one of these online the last few days trying to egg on the same rioting in Ireland?

Yeah our country is in bits let’s wreck it more....

Morons.

Ten of Swords

riemann wrote: »

When did it become the norm now for Police to use tear gas on their own citizens in response to a protest turning violent?

I tweaked the op a little bit, makes more sense now

And it's been the norm for many years.

Fiery mutant

It’s always the way of the loons to scream peaceful protest and cry for human rights, after they have started the trouble.

kneemos

laughing gas would be way better.

Harry Palmr

Will it make them smell less French?

riemann

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I take it you’re one of these online the last few days trying to egg on the same rioting in Ireland?

Yeah our country is in bits let’s wreck it more....

Morons.

Way to completely miss the point.

Maybe spend less time online and more outside in the real world.

Roger_007

This protest started over an increase in the tax on diesel. Then after one day of protest, the government backed down and cancelled the tax increase. The protesters seem to have decided that they might as well go ahead with more protest days even though they have nothing in particular to protest about.
There is an element in every society who will use any pretext to cause mayhem and that is what we are seeing now.

Ipso

I’ll take a wild guess about who they want to pay for the damage they cause.

Manic Moran

riemann wrote: »

Your ignorance is a testament to your personality.

Link.

Many things are prohibited in the laws of war, but are routinely done in the civilian environment, as what is suitable for civilian situations is not necessarily appropriate for military situations, or vice versa. For example, expanding ammunition is specifically prohibited in warfare, but commonly used by police forces worldwide. Similarly, if you detain a combatant, there are only certain things they are obligated to tell you, but if a civilian is arrested by police, that obligation is much larger. And so on.

It is, quite simply, a stupid analogy.

malinheader

Are they mostly their own citizens though.? If so anyone who would think it ok to deface the Eiffel tower or the Louvre is a total moron in my eyes and does not deserve to be called a citizen. There's protesting and there is also just vandalism.

Wanderer78

It ll be interesting to see what happens with the growing debt levels in France, particularly private debt, will they experience the elusive 'soft landing'?

Zorya

French people are not just protesting diesel taxes, there is a lot of grievance among the population. Sure, some of the protests especially in Paris have been co-opted by the expected trouble-makers, including likely a few far-right who will be used to undermine the legitimacy of the protests, though from video I watched yesterday, it was mostly ordinary people, a lot of them older, with a few provocateurs in the mix.

The protests are said to be largely made up of people from the poorer suburbs. There have been protests throughout France, not just in Paris, and also in Belgium, Netherlands, even Germany. Why should people not protest? I would damn well protest if I lived in some decaying Parisien suburb with low wages and social strife.

The main problem I see is that the alternative to Macron is worse, though he is a strange and unpleasant little man.

So far today I have seen video of one young girl with her eye shot out by police, and one young man with his whole hand shot off with a rubber bullet. Some of the police response was savage. And parading around in EU-flagged armoured tanks in the middle of Paris is not a good look for a democracy.

Wanderer78

Zorya wrote:

So far today I have seen video of one young girl with her eye shot out by police, and one young man with his whole hand shot off with a rubber bullet. Some of the police response was savage. And parading around in EU-flagged armoured tanks in the middle of Paris is not a good look for a democracy.

Democracy! In Europe?

Gringo180

One protester said, "We want equality, we want to live not to just survive"

Capitalist greed is in its final days. Well done to the French I hope they hang Macron and his E.U cronies from the rafters. The masses are living in too much poverty while the 5% are hoarding all the riches.

Graces7

OP; how would you have liked to see the police act? Given the rioters were destroying cars, shops, national monuments?

everlast75

Ten of Swords wrote: »

So?

France is not at war or did I miss something?

If France was truly at war, it would have surrendered already.

Guy:Incognito

Gringo180 wrote: »

. The masses are living in too much poverty while the 5% are hoarding all the riches.

Sure only a couple of years ago it was "the 1%" . At that rate of expansion most people will be rich soon enough.



Btw, what entitles anyone to "the riches" ? Just because they want it ?

Say my name

Arab Spring hits France!

Alf Veedersane

riemann wrote: »

At least you'll learn something today. Isn't education fun.

Link.

Linked page s behind a paywall but the Chemicals Weapons Convention defines it as a 'riot control agent' and explicitly states the use of riot control agents for "Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes." Is not prohibited.

Isn't education fun?

CelticRambler

Say my name wrote: »

Arab Spring hits France!

Nah ... just the French being French. It goes on all the time. They're masters of shooting themselves in the head to make a point. If they put as much effort into work as they do into protesting, they'd rival the Germans for economic strength. :P

whisky_galore

Had to audibly groan at people sharing "why don't the Irish protest like the French" type posts. Yeah leave a few people dead and more in hospital. Wonder how they'd feel if it was their car or property was smashed up or burnt out?

ShRT

riemann wrote: »

At least you'll learn something today. Isn't education fun.

Link.

Oh gosh! Thanks for that amazing article! I never knew that a chemical that could be fired at people is a chemical weapon. Although it did mention in the article that it's perfectly legal for use by domestic law enforcement in riot control.
I was left confused but this article cleared it right up for me.

Link.

Peatys

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Sure only a couple of years ago it was "the 1%" . At that rate of expansion most people will be rich soon enough.



Btw, what entitles anyone to "the riches" ? Just because they want it ?

Setting fire to cars and looting is easier than getting up and working every day.

There should be a means test on internet access. Used to be the case that these loons has to be on telly to get their point across. One look at them and you knew to avoid. Now, they're just a user name.. and look as normal as the rest of us.

A quick look at the post history and i know who to engage with.

riemann

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Linked page s behind a paywall but the Chemicals Weapons Convention defines it as a 'riot control agent' and explicitly states the use of riot control agents for "Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes." Is not prohibited.

Isn't education fun?

Yes I didn't expect you to admit your ignorance, but that's ok.

To sum up, Tear Gas is a chemical weapon. There is no debate, it is on the list of banned substances as per the Chemicals Weapons Convention.

You can define it as a "Fluffy Cloud Agent", it doesn't change the fact is is a Chemical Weapon.

As I previously stated - we have evolved to a point where the State is free to use chemical weapons (that are banned from use in war), against their own citizens.

Here is another link.

riemann

ShRT wrote: »

Oh gosh! Thanks for that amazing article! I never knew that a chemical that could be fired at people is a chemical weapon. Although it did mention in the article that it's perfectly legal for use by domestic law enforcement in riot control.
I was left confused but this article cleared it right up for me.

Link.

Link.

ShRT

Oh are we playing the link game? You should have said. More Wilde.

Link.

/OT

Yes, using tear gas on anarchists who are causing destruction of the local civilians property is the right thing to do. It's legal. Would you prefer they use full metal jacket - that's not banned by convention?

Graces7

riemann wrote: »

Yes I didn't expect you to admit your ignorance, but that's ok.

To sum up, Tear Gas is a chemical weapon. There is no debate, it is on the list of banned substances as per the Chemicals Weapons Convention.

You can define it as a "Fluffy Cloud Agent", it doesn't change the fact is is a Chemical Weapon.

As I previously stated - we have evolved to a point where the State is free to use chemical weapons (that are banned from use in war), against their own citizens.

Here is another link.

Asking again; so what do you think the police should have done? Given the rioting and danger and destruction?

Alf Veedersane

riemann wrote: »

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Linked page s behind a paywall but the Chemicals Weapons Convention defines it as a 'riot control agent' and explicitly states the use of riot control agents for "Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes." Is not prohibited.

Isn't education fun?

Yes I didn't expect you to admit your ignorance, but that's ok.

To sum up, Tear Gas is a chemical weapon. There is no debate, it is on the list of banned substances as per the Chemicals Weapons Convention.

You can define it as a "Fluffy Cloud Agent", it doesn't change the fact is is a Chemical Weapon.

As I previously stated - we have evolved to a point where the State is free to use chemical weapons (that are banned from use in war), against their own citizens.

Here is another link.

So your sources are the Washington Post and slate.com

I quoted the Chemical Weapons Convention which is fine with using tear gas for riot control.

While you might think handing out free candy floss would have appealed to the rioters and caused the riot to stop, it's unlikely.

The use of tear gas is warranted.

phater phagan

I'm sure that there are non-violent elements in the protest; however many of the others are disruptive malcontents and criminals who are hell-bent on doing nothing other than the destruction and mayhem of their country.
France is a democracy and peaceful protests are enshrined in its constitution. The people who are running wild, burning and looting are not peaceful people and must be treated with the full force of law.
It is not anything like the 1789 revolution which was against a brutal, inequitable, aristocratic regime. What is happening now in France is tantamount to fascism and totalitarianism, as happened in Russia etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Zorya wrote: »

French people are not just protesting diesel taxes, there is a lot of grievance among the population. Sure, some of the protests especially in Paris have been co-opted by the expected trouble-makers, including likely a few far-right who will be used to undermine the legitimacy of the protests, though from video I watched yesterday, it was mostly ordinary people, a lot of them older, with a few provocateurs in the mix.

The protests are said to be largely made up of people from the poorer suburbs. There have been protests throughout France, not just in Paris, and also in Belgium, Netherlands, even Germany. Why should people not protest? I would damn well protest if I lived in some decaying Parisien suburb with low wages and social strife.

The main problem I see is that the alternative to Macron is worse, though he is a strange and unpleasant little man.

So far today I have seen video of one young girl with her eye shot out by police, and one young man with his whole hand shot off with a rubber bullet. Some of the police response was savage. And parading around in EU-flagged armoured tanks in the middle of Paris is not a good look for a democracy.

The EU flags don’t make a lot of sense as there is no EU army. So what is going on? Wonder if a protester glued the flag on.

Franz Von Peppercorn

phater phagan wrote: »

I'm sure that there are non-violent elements in the protest; however many of the others are disruptive malcontents and criminals who are hell-bent on doing nothing other than the destruction and mayhem of their country.
France is a democracy and peaceful protests are enshrined in its constitution. The people who are running wild, burning and looting are not peaceful people and must be treated with the full force of law.
It is not anything like the 1789 revolution which was against a brutal, inequitable, aristocratic regime. What is happening now in France is tantamount to fascism and totalitarianism, as happened in Russia etc.

You might want to read up on the aftermath of the French Revolution.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Peatys wrote: »

Setting fire to cars and looting is easier than getting up and working every day.

There should be a means test on internet access. Used to be the case that these loons has to be on telly to get their point across. One look at them and you knew to avoid. Now, they're just a user name.. and look as normal as the rest of us.

A quick look at the post history and i know who to engage with.

The assumption that the riots in France are driven by “people not getting up everyday” doesn’t make a lot of sense. The original rioting, at least, was against increases in diesel which affected the self employed, the rural and remote workers. The use of the yellow jackets was deliberate because it represents people who work and travel and have to have visibility. The self employed often demonstrate in France.

There’s no leadership - on that sense it’s totally anarchist in the non ideological sense of the word. I don’t think the majority of the protestors are anarchists though, although they turn up to all riots.

Clearly there’s a lot of anger there across all classes.

Peatys

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The assumption that the riots in France are driven by “people not getting up everyday” doesn’t make a lot of sense. The original rioting, at least, was against increases in diesel which affected the self employed, the rural and remote workers. The use of the yellow jackets was deliberate because it represents people who work and travel and have to have visibility. The self employed often demonstrate in France.

There’s no leadership - on that sense it’s totally anarchist in the non ideological sense of the word. I don’t think the majority of the protestors are anarchists though, although they turn up to all riots.

Clearly there’s a lot of anger there across all classes.

I was talking about the scumbags who use legitimate protest to loot, burn cars etc..

By the time the car burning starts, the original protesters have gone to safety.

Graces7

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You might want to read up on the aftermath of the French Revolution.

Thank you for this wisdom.

phater phagan

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You might want to read up on the aftermath of the French Revolution.

I have, and I believe that the thugs and brutes who took over after it would be similarly be at home with the rioters and destroyers who are now protesting.
As in the Russian revolution, the vile opportunists commandeered it for their own repulsive means.
Many of these common-day rioters are cut from the same cloth as those who expropriated it in 1789 and 1917. The same mindset.

CelticRambler

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The self employed often demonstrate in France.

Every class and type of person in France demonstrates. Some of my son's peers (young adult) go to every protest, every weekend, regardless of what it's for or against. That was one of the reasons he left and went off to a civilised, progressive country (Ireland :rolleyes: ) to lead a productive life.

There wouldn't have been tax rises on diesel if the Breton farmers hadn't already protested about the polluter-pays Ecotax that was brought in, then scrapped (at a cost to the State/taxpayer of €1bn) by the previous administration.

Same story in every local factory: as soon as there's talk of improving productivity, the workers go on strike, cut up the machinery, set fire to the buildings, even hire buses to go and picket their customers' facilities to demand they order more of their overpriced French product ... anything other than put a bit more effort into doing the jobs they're paid for.

But I can't complain. I get paid for doing the work that French won't get out of bed for. :P

skooterblue2

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The EU flags don’t make a lot of sense as there is no EU army. So what is going on? Wonder if a protester glued the flag on.

The EU defence has a common HQ, there is also a common procurement policy as well. There is also a common defence policy. The navies/Naval services are also integrated for the defence of the North Atlantic and Mediterranean. There are minor things like a common rifle and uniform but it is well underway to have a completely integrated European Defence policy. Which means Ireland will have have to tow the line behind disputes that we are not directly involved with.