Retailer demanded Visa Debit card !!

D3V!L

I went into a local convenience store on a well known large round-about in Dublin recently. Its not a shop I would be in regularly but happened to be in the bank next door.

I needed a drink so bought a soft drink and asked could I pay with my card. The shop keeper plonks the card machine on the counter as you normally would and then demanded my card to tap it !!

I don't use the tap facility because it takes forever for transactions to go through. I told him I don't use it and then told me he wants my card to put it into the machine. I'm a grown man and fairly dexterous so can manage the basics like using a credit card machine and tying my laces. :rolleyes:

He got quite aggravated by me not just handing over my debit card so I told him to keep his drink and i'll take my business elsewhere. When I got back into the car shocked I told my wife and she said months ago she had the same problem with him.

Are there any consumer or banking regulations regarding the use of card machines and who would I report this to ??

troyzer

Costcutter in Walkinstown, got it.

You seem a bit fragile. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that tapping the card is slower than chip and PIN. It just isn't.

It's also more secure and the bank charges the merchant less.

In what way did he get aggravated by you not handing over the card? If the card reader was in front of you, why didn't you just put the card in?

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

Costcutter in Walkinstown, got it.

You seem a bit fragile. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that tapping the card is slower than chip and PIN. It just isn't.

It's also more secure and the bank charges the merchant less.

In what way did he get aggravated by you not handing over the card? If the card reader was in front of you, why didn't you just put the card in?

I'm far from fragile, I assure you. Debiting does take longer , try it yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

He wouldn't let me put the card in and demanded the card to do it himself. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

I'm far from fragile thanks. It does take longer , try it yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

He wouldn't let me put the card in and demanded the card to do it himself. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

It doesn't take longer. The acquisition time is identical. It's the same process.

The acquisition works by sending a signal to the merchant or acquiring bank (shop's bank) and asking them to make a debit. The merchant bank then contacts the card issuer (VISA or Mastercard) to confirm if the card is valid. The card issuer then passes on the authorisation request to the issuing bank (your bank) who then confirm that you have sufficient balance, they then send the payment to the merchant bank. This takes about 2-3 seconds and it's the exact same process whether or not you tap or use chip and PIN.

However, entering your card, typing your PIN and then it being accepted is an additional process on top of acquisition. Which is why chip and PIN is slower. It just is. It's a fact.

This guy sounds like an arsehole. But he didn't do anything illegal and you're a bit precious if you were "shocked".

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

I

The acquisition works by sending a signal to the merchant or acquiring bank (shop's bank) and asking them to make a debit. The merchant bank then contacts the card issuer (VISA or Mastercard) to confirm if the card is valid. The card issuer then passes on the authorisation request to the issuing bank (your bank) who then confirm that you have sufficient balance, they then send the payment to the merchant bank. This takes about 2-3 seconds and it's the exact same process whether or not you tap or use chip and PIN.

I am not talking about the duration of the transaction with the retailer. I'm talking about the amount of time it takes for the money to be debited from my account.

Completely non consequential in this case.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

Costcutter in Walkinstown...

My money was on Spar in Artane:o

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

I am not talking about the duration of the transaction with the retailer. I'm talking about the amount of time it takes for the money to be debited from my account.

Completely non consequential in this case.

Wrong.

The reason why some transactions take longer to appear is because of the way merchant banks batch payments. Larger transactions are typically batched on their own straight away, smaller ones over an entire business day are usually batched together and submitted to the issuing bank at midnight that day. Which, especially if it's the weekend, can lead to a perceived funding delay.

The important thing here is that smaller transactions are delayed, not contactless ones. However, because contactless payments are limited to €30, they are by default considered smaller transactions and delayed.

Meaning the same thing would have happened whether or not you used contactless. Chip and PIN doesn't speed it up.

This isn't universal in every store either, it depends on the card machine. It doesn't however, depend on contactless vs chip and PIN.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

I've found that contactless does take longer to come out of my bank. I've had a few transactions for Penneys take 5+ days to even appear as a pending or otherwise transaction on my bank when using contactless. If I use my pin it normally appears instantly.
Edit: I'm not saying it is or isnt because of contactless, but that was just my experience.

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

Wrong.

The reason why some transactions take longer to appear is because of the way merchant banks batch payments. Larger transactions are typically batched on their own straight away, smaller ones over an entire business day are usually batched together and submitted to the issuing bank at midnight that day. Which, especially if it's the weekend, can lead to a perceived funding delay.

The important thing here is that smaller transactions are delayed, not contactless ones. However, because contactless payments are limited to €30, they are by default considered smaller transactions and delayed.

Meaning the same thing would have happened whether or not you used contactless. Chip and PIN doesn't speed it up.

This isn't universal in every store either, it depends on the card machine. It doesn't however, depend on contactless vs chip and PIN.

Regardless of weather I'm wrong or right thats my choice as a consumer.

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

My money was on Spar in Artane:o

Yeah but the roundabout in Artane isn't particularly famous, sure it's a bog standard four exit roundabout. The one in Walkinstown is a Goliath with six exits.

MarkR

Perhaps he was concerned about his machine. Particularly if they are wireless. Could be robbed, or perhaps interfered with?

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

Regardless of weather I'm wrong or right thats my choice as a consumer.

You're right. It's absolutely your right as a consumer to be pointlessly difficult.

Just don't be "shocked" when the shop owner gets annoyed. Especially when it costs him more money to faciliate your pointless request.

EdgeCase

They appear immediately on both my AIB and N26 accounts.

In fact with the N26 account you will even get a push alert message on your phone, usually within about 1 to 2 seconds of tapping the card.

There shouldn't be any difference in posting time as the process is essentially identical whether you use contactless or chip and pin.

sentient_6

Handing over the card is the same as handing over your wallet and saying take it out there yourself.

LeakingLava

I'm pretty sure that the owner of the card is the only person who should be using the card(I read it somewhere, I think my bank terms and conditions?). I am the same regarding this. I have confirmed for myself that contactless transactions don't appear as anything on my bank account until after at least 3 days and immediately charges me. For chip and PIN, I am immediately deducted the amount from the 'available' balance despite the charge still happening a few days later. I have confirmed that this is due to contactless vs chip and PIN because I did the exact same transaction, same shop, same item, same price, one day difference. I have tried it a few times. All with the same result.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold my card for me when I am more than capable of putting it into a card machine myself.

Also, isn't the point of those wireless card transmitter things to abide by the rule of banks that the owner is the only person to use their card? Same with those keypads in banks/shops that allows you to put your card in and just enter the PIN but is still controlled by the person at the till, I believe.

D3V!L

Something I would buy regularly from Dunnes, every second week for €4.99 took 5 days to come out of my account recently when I used the tap function. The previous time it took 2 days.

If a retailer is demanding my card and not letting me near the machine how do I know he's not typing €30 in on the machine only for me to find out 1 or 2 days later when I'm no where near the area.

troyzer

LeakingLava wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the owner of the card is the only person who should be using the card(I read it somewhere, I think my bank terms and conditions?). I am the same regarding this. I have confirmed for myself that contactless transactions don't appear as anything on my bank account until after at least 3 days and immediately charges me. For chip and PIN, I am immediately deducted the amount from the 'available' balance despite the charge still happening a few days later. I have confirmed that this is due to contactless vs chip and PIN because I did the exact same transaction, same shop, same item, same price, one day difference. I have tried it a few times. All with the same result.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold my card for me when I am more than capable of putting it into a card machine myself.

Also, isn't the point of those wireless card transmitter things to abide by the rule of banks that the owner is the only person to use their card? Same with those keypads in banks/shops that allows you to put your card in and just enter the PIN but is still controlled by the person at the till, I believe.

This is simply untrue.

Dalomanakora

If I were OP, I would have just handed over my card. However, I see where he's coming from.


Contactless payments absolutely do take longer to show on my banking online. 3-5 days for it to even show as pending, as opposed to chip and pin showing instantly. Might be an issue with my own bank, but that's what happens.


And as someone else pointed out, you're not supposed to be handing over your card. That said, where I work, despite me ALWAYS turning the card machine to the person and telling them they can tap or insert their card, 50% of people hand the card to me to do it for them. So maybe the shop guy is used to doing it for people.


It still shouldn't be an issue to let the card owner do it themselves though.

LeakingLava

troyzer wrote: »

This is simply untrue.

Sure :pac:

Dalomanakora

troyzer wrote: »

This is simply untrue.

Absolutely not untrue. I've done it myself. I'm with PTSB and contactless ALWAYS takes far longer to even show as pending.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Absolutely not untrue. I've done it myself. I'm with PTSB and contactless ALWAYS takes far longer to even show as pending.

It might be a particular issue with PTSB as I'm with them too and always have the same issue with contactless. My husband noticed the same and hes with PTSB.

LeakingLava

Kase Howling Truth wrote: »

It might be a particular issue with PTSB as I'm with them too and always have the same issue with contactless. My husband noticed the same and hes with PTSB.

I am with a different bank, though.

antodeco

The great thing about contactless is that if you have €30 in your account, you can normally get a few days usage out of it before it goes "actually, you don't have enough money".

I found this out by using contactless and never checked my account before. It then put me into overdraft 2 or 3 days later and I then had a bounced payment and charge of €12.60 because there wasn't enough in my account (there was the day previous, it just took so long for the contactless to come through. I had assumed it had already been taken out).

Pelvis

If it's that important for a €2 purchase to show up on your account immediately then you've probably got far bigger problems.

troyzer

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

Auguste Comte

You made the right decision to walk.

LeakingLava

troyzer wrote: »

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

This is simply untrue. :pac: :pac: :pac:

c6ysaphjvqw41k

Definitely not an issue, just something I've noticed with contactless since switching to PTSB. When I used to be with BOI anytime a transaction didn't go through and I had to enter my pin twice, I would always get 2 pending transactions for 3 or so days and then one would come out and the other disappear. Never once had that happen with PTSB. I think all banks have their own issues with processing.

TheMilkyPirate

I'm with AIB and contactless payments definitely do take much longer to leave my bank than chip and pin. It's always the case in lidl I live across the road so I'm always in there, if I pay chip and pin money is gone straight away. If I pay contactless it can take anything up to 4-5 days sometimes for it to come out.

Fann Linn

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah but the roundabout in Artane isn't particularly famous, sure it's a bog standard four exit roundabout. The one in Walkinstown is a Goliath with six exits.

With two pubs on it in case you need something to eat or drink whilst navigating it.

VeryTerry

troyzer wrote: »

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

You clearly don't. Like everyone else in this thread in my experience of the thousands of tapped transactions I have completed is they always take far longer to come out. This often would lead to my account ending up in a negative balance when they are processed. This never happens with chip and pin.

nim1bdeh38l2cw

D3V!L wrote: »

I am not talking about the duration of the transaction with the retailer. I'm talking about the amount of time it takes for the money to be debited from my account.

Completely non consequential in this case.

You need a new bank so, it's immediate with my bank (Ulster Bank)

D3V!L

LeakingLava wrote: »

This is simply untrue. :pac: :pac: :pac:

Well some lad on the internet said so so it must be true.

Kenny B

Every time I use tap - it shows on my online banking almost immediately, so any issue with the Tap would an issue to take up with your bank, not the shopkeeper but because you have an issue with your bank you decide to waste the time of the shop keeper,

I own a card machine and I generally put the card in the machine instead of the customer doing it, I'd say 90% hand me the card when I give them a total, (more office than shop setup tbf) but I see people pulling and dragging at the machine and have to tell them to be careful as I don't want it damaged and have to replace it,

The Self Entitlement is strong in this one.

lawred2

you ok hun XxX

VeryTerry

Kenny B wrote: »

Every time I use tap - it shows on my online banking almost immediately, so any issue with the Tap would an issue to take up with your bank, not the shopkeeper but because you have an issue with your bank you decide to waste the time of the shop keeper,

I own a card machine and I generally put the card in the machine instead of the customer doing it, I'd say 90% hand me the card when I give them a total, (more office than shop setup tbf) but I see people pulling and dragging at the machine and have to tell them to be careful as I don't want it damaged and have to replace it,

The Self Entitlement is strong in this one.

Yeah, yours obviously! You have no business handling other people's property. If you don't want to take the payment then don't. I wouldn't hand you my card.

Dalomanakora

Kenny B wrote: »

Every time I use tap - it shows on my online banking almost immediately, so any issue with the Tap would an issue to take up with your bank, not the shopkeeper but because you have an issue with your bank you decide to waste the time of the shop keeper,

I own a card machine and I generally put the card in the machine instead of the customer doing it, I'd say 90% hand me the card when I give them a total, (more office than shop setup tbf) but I see people pulling and dragging at the machine and have to tell them to be careful as I don't want it damaged and have to replace it,

The Self Entitlement is strong in this one.

That's fine if someone wants to hand you the card, but they're well within their rights to want to do it themselves. And yeah, you're entitled to then refuse the sale, but ultimately we're not supposed to be handing our cards to people in shops.

Kenny B

VeryTerry wrote: »

Yeah, yours obviously! You have no business handling other people's property. If you don't want to take the payment then don't. I wouldn't hand you my card.

Did you see the part where I said 90% hand me the card, you're too busy typing indignantly to bother reading,

I find the vast majority of people have no issue with handing someone a card, it is not as if it leaves their eyesight,

Shopkeepers tend to remember trouble customers, maybe that was why the op was dealt with the way he was.

Varik

Unless it's the fixed reader that's facing the customer and I'm not handed or presented the reader I'd usually hand the card over. Also find contact less faster in general.

Never had a none chip & pin card, but from what I remember most for the old carbon copy and the swipe the cards were normally handed over.

D3V!L

Kenny B wrote: »

maybe that was why the op was dealt with the way he was.

I haven't been in the shop in about 2 years and this chap didn't work there then. Thanks for the input though.

amcalester

VeryTerry wrote: »

Yeah, yours obviously! You have no business handling other people's property. If you don't want to take the payment then don't. I wouldn't hand you my card.

Pretty sure the issuing bank owns the card and not the account holder.

Kenny B

Dalomanakora wrote: »

That's fine if someone wants to hand you the card, but they're well within their rights to want to do it themselves. And yeah, you're entitled to then refuse the sale, but ultimately we're not supposed to be handing our cards to people in shops.

We're not supposed to cross on a red man either, but reality is what it is,

The op has a personal banking issue but chooses to blame a shopkeeper, it's always someone else's fault for some.

eoghan104

Pelvis wrote: »

If it's that important for a €2 purchase to show up on your account immediately then you've probably got far bigger problems.

This.

You said "How do I know he is not typing in €30" get a grip. Do you think the shop would be open still if the worker had a habit of doing this?

You were just being awkward and a pain in the arse.

SweetCaliber

eoghan104 wrote: »

This.

You said "How do I know he is not typing in €30" get a grip. Do you think the shop would be open still if the worker had a habit of doing this?

You were just being awkward and a pain in the arse.

The OP has every right to put his card into the machine himself. I'd never hand my card over to someone else. It's unlikely the shopkeeper would put in a different amount but its not impossible.

I honestly don't see why such negativity towards the OP in this thread. If a shopkeeper is that afraid of his/her machine being broken then maybe he/she should stop accepting cards then.

micks_address

SweetCaliber wrote: »

The OP has every right to put his card into the machine himself. I'd never hand my card over to someone else. It's unlikely the shopkeeper would put in a different amount but its not impossible.

I honestly don't see why such negativity towards the OP in this thread. If a shopkeeper is that afraid of his/her machine being broken then maybe he/she should stop accepting cards then.

happened to me once... i was buying the paper and something else that came to 6.28... shop keeper missed out on the decimal point and took 628... only noticed when i checked my online banking later.. i had dumped the receipt... who keeps receipts of a paper? In fairness the next day went up they handed me out the cash and a major apology..... they could see the transaction on their system

SortingYouOut

Contactless payments can take longer than chip+pin, but this has improved over the last year or so and it now depends on the merchant.

I was at a pub recently in the shticks who accepted contactless but the bar man told me himself that due to their connection, it won't debit until during the week but that chip+pin went straight out?

Strange enough

MarkR

I would normally hand over the card. Particularly in drive throughs. Really, we should all be confirming the value is correct on the terminal before tapping..

flexcon

Dominik Lively Self-improvement wrote: »

You need a new bank so, it's immediate with my bank (Ulster Bank)

Also with Ulster and it's instant. In fact I use Apple Pay and that gets annoying as I get one notification from Apple Pay that I paid, and another immediately from Ulster bank app.

D3V!L wrote: »

I don't use the tap facility because it takes forever for transactions to go through.

My first reading of this was you were implying the actual wait time in the store for the transaction to go through is longer which is inherently false. It is nearly always faster.

But now the discussion has moved into how long it takes to show up in the account. By this definition we are now down to how each bank shows the transaction in the account. This is now ambiguous so I think people should give this dude a chill and realize that in his working life, the contactless transactions don't factually show up in his account as fast as the chip and pin.End off.

The OP who's other half works with the payment provider is right but also wrong at the same time since the arguments here are crossed to what you are actually discussing.

greenwaving

eoghan104 wrote: »

This.

You said "How do I know he is not typing in €30" get a grip. Do you think the shop would be open still if the worker had a habit of doing this?

You were just being awkward and a pain in the arse.

Actually my mum was overcharged by a shop assistant in Dublin mistyping the amount into the card machine. The till receipt was correct but as the till didnt link to the machine the assistant had to type in the amount. He added an extra zero. It was a genuine mistake that my mum didnt pick up on at the time - she had checked the amount on the till which was correct but not the card machine - until checking her bank account later. What was a 95 euro transaction suddenly became a 950 euro one. It took a lot of work with the shop to get the refund issued because their till receipt was correct so they werent aware of the error and then there was of course the usual 3-5+ day wait for the refund to appear. So it is possible for the wrong amount to appear on the machine and a 3 euro transaction to become a 30 euro one.

I can't count the amount of times a shop assistant has tried to take the card off me to process a contactless payment without the machine being visible to me to check the amount. For chip and pin transactions the amount being charged can of course be checked when entering your pin but they should still never be handed over as that is how cards are often skimmed - the card is taken off the customer and held against a skimming machine without the customers knowledge. I have had occasions where my card has been taken out of my hand and done a trip through a bar or restaurant to the card machine only for both to be brought back and presented to me for my pin - really bad practice and a potential fraud risk.

However, when I do come across either instance I just try to hold onto my card, ask to do it myself and explain why instead of storming off or looking to report the person for daring to touch my card. Most shop assistants just don't understand and are happy enough once you explain this to them.

killanena

TheMilkyPirate wrote:

I'm with AIB and contactless payments definitely do take much longer to leave my bank than chip and pin. It's always the case in lidl I live across the road so I'm always in there, if I pay chip and pin money is gone straight away. If I pay contactless it can take anything up to 4-5 days sometimes for it to come out.

I am with AIB too. For 2 or so years mine was exactly like this. I could spend 30e in my account 4 times, 3 times by contactless and the last with chip and pin. Last transaction came out straight away. 3-5 days later the first 3 would.

But the last few months all my transactions no matter how big or small come out instantly. Maybe the bank flagged me for going minus and not having an overdraft. I get paid weekly so would just pay it back in end and they never applied a levy for going negative.

vandriver

flexcon wrote: »

Also with Ulster and it's instant. In fact I use Apple Pay and that gets annoying as I get one notification from Apple Pay that I paid, and another immediately from Ulster bank app.




My first reading of this was you were implying the actual wait time in the store for the transaction to go through is longer which is inherently false. It is nearly always faster.

But now the discussion has moved into how long it takes to show up in the account. By this definition we are now down to how each bank shows the transaction in the account. This is now ambiguous so I think people should give this dude a chill and realize that in his working life, the contactless transactions don't factually show up in his account as fast as the chip and pin.End off.

The OP who's other half works with the payment provider is right but also wrong at the same time since the arguments here are crossed to what you are actually discussing.

How do you get notifications on the Ulster Bank app?Mine certainly doesn't do it.