Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Christy42

Danzy wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

Significant benefits too. You know I live in the Netherlands and previously lived in the US?

The Dutch model is far from a socialist model, unless you’re a republican railing against Obamacare. This is my point.

My line about it being far from a socialist model seems to have skipped you.

It is a way more cut throat model than here and very ineffective.

Obamacare is a first step to a proper healthcare system. Obama admitted as much himself.

The issue obviously being that we have to wait for a democratic administration to make progress (we saw what happened when Trump tried to look at healthcare and suddenly realised it wasn't easy).

dinorebel

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

Incorrect
When the irs audit is finished then he can and will.
Trump is just following the correct advice
Of his tax lawyers and accountants
It would be the same advice I would give

The reason he will never release them is nothing to do with tax avoidance it's the fact it will reveal his true worth. And that will show the emperor has no clothes.

Wanderer78

dinorebel wrote:

The reason he will never release them is nothing to do with tax avoidance it's the fact it will reveal his true worth. And that will show the emperor has no clothes.

Oh God, please no, a naked trump!

jooksavage

dinorebel wrote: »

The reason he will never release them is nothing to do with tax avoidance it's the fact it will reveal his true worth. And that will show the emperor has no clothes.

I'm convinced this is the case. If he was fiddling his taxes that would only enhance his image among his base - sticking it to the IRS, look at him!

The most likely reason he's hiding those taxes is that it will reveal him for what he is: a fake billionaire, floating on an ocean of debt. When Tim O'Brien's book claimed Trumps actual worth was less than 10% of what he claimed, Trump sued. His lawsuit was dismissed.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

I never said the irs could not do trumps audit. A revenue audit is a game of car and mouse and if trump were to release his tax returns to the public the irs would have the upper hand.

The other reason I think he won’t release is because his tax planning has been really good. I assume he has claimed huge losses on certain transactions and he probably pays little to no income tax.
I would guess that the irs are auditing these losses. The question is are they true losses. Derivatives especially are complicated

Igotadose

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

I would guess that the irs are auditing these losses.

Just a reminder- Trump lies pretty much all the time. Why do you believe his taxes are being audited?

You're deflecting. He lies all the time. He claims they're being audited. I call BS.
Produce something that proves they're being audited, like, I dunno, a statement from the IRS? Surely as he runs the IRS (effectively since Treasury reports to him), that can happen?

And, this was his claim in 2016 too. It's now 3 years.

Timberrrrrrrr

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

The mueller report will be released and trump is under audit so he cannot release his tax returns.
It’s easy for career politicians like Obama and et al to release their tax returns but trump is a billionaire and his tax returns are more complicated

Why?

I have seen so many of Trump supporters making this claim, please ecplain why he cannot release his tax returns due to being (perpetually) audited. Where's the law that states this?

rossie1977

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

The tax affairs of a global business are a lot more complicated then most posters here understand or will admit
I know of businesses in Ireland where revenue are constantly queuing and challenging vat returns. The turnover is that high

As for trump he has many employees who deal with finance. Errors happen and trump as head of a global business cannot personally check everything

If trump released his tax returns to the public you can sure the irs would then find errors and this would be all would here

Linda McMahon (former member of Trumps cabinet) released her tax returns both times she ran for office in Connecticut and released her husbands who wasn't running at all. And the McMahons have a global business with Vince being worth more than Trump currently according to Forbes.

everlast75

Fantastic podcast from Trumpcast, with the journalist Philip Bump just released.

A really good insight into the situation in the States at present and in it, they talk about the view that people cheat obviously because they want to win, but that they then rationalise it (should they need to on a moral level) by saying or believing that everyone is doing it, and you are naive to think otherwise.

It is on those grounds that Trump supporters don't care if he lies, cheats or bullies his way to the top.

So we can argue with his supporters here all day and all night, but they will never admit we are right, because they know what he is, and they don't care, because of the foregoing.

seamus

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

I never said the irs could not do trumps audit. A revenue audit is a game of car and mouse and if trump were to release his tax returns to the public the irs would have the upper hand.

The other reason I think he won’t release is because his tax planning has been really good. I assume he has claimed huge losses on certain transactions and he probably pays little to no income tax.
I would guess that the irs are auditing these losses. The question is are they true losses. Derivatives especially are complicated

You are literally just spewing out meaningless nonsense.

None of the above has any basis in fact. Half of it doesn't even make any sense, I doubt you could even explain what it's supposed to mean. It sounds like something you read on some pro-Trump forum, think you kind of understood it, and now you've badly paraphrased it here.

Quin_Dub

Also - If as he claims he is "always" under audit , surely they've finished with some years by now?

What would stop him releasing , for example his tax returns from a few years ago , before the period that is currently under Audit?

"Here are my Tax returns for 2005 to 2010 , the more recent stuff is still under audit , but I'll show them when the IRS are done"

Would that not be a far more open and honest approach?

But as others have pointed out , I don't believe that he has necessarily cheated on his taxes as the IRS would have caught him already , but I do believe that the reason he won't release the taxes is because of the implications elsewhere.

For example , there are multiple reports of him providing different valuations for his holdings to different organisations - e.g. Low valuation for IRS/State Taxes and a High valuation to Insurance companies etc.

Releasing his Tax returns might expose some more of that kind of behaviour and provide evidence of Fraud/Misrepresentation to other groups - investors , insurers , Banks that loaned to him and so on.

And of course , it would reveal that he has never been worth anything close to what he claims he is.

batgoat

seamus wrote: »

You are literally just spewing out meaningless nonsense.

None of the above has any basis in fact. Half of it doesn't even make any sense, I doubt you could even explain what it's supposed to mean. It sounds like something you read on some pro-Trump forum, think you kind of understood it, and now you've badly paraphrased it here.

It seems to be summed up as "he's a bit shady, can't be public with that".

jooksavage

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

I never said the irs could not do trumps audit. A revenue audit is a game of car and mouse and if trump were to release his tax returns to the public the irs would have the upper hand.

The other reason I think he won’t release is because his tax planning has been really good. I assume he has claimed huge losses on certain transactions and he probably pays little to no income tax.
I would guess that the irs are auditing these losses. The question is are they true losses. Derivatives especially are complicated

Nonsense, utter nonsense. Where are you getting this stuff?

As someone who has been audited after taking over my parents farm, I can tell you it's not a "game of cat and mouse". You seem to be confusing tax audits with something else, I'm not sure what. A tax audit is a thoroughly dispiriting slog. If there's even a hint that you've concealed something (which you seem to be implying with your "upper hand" remark) you're f**ked.

Professor Moriarty

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

If Trump were a serial tax dodger (as in evading taxes), the IRS would have nailed him long ago, just like they nail thousands of tax dodgers every year. Like any extremely wealthy person in the US, he has an army of accountants who make sure he stays within the IRS code while avoiding paying more tax than he has to. Nothing ethical about it, but it is (sadly) very American.

Indeed. But you must understand that if the IRS have audited him then there is no doubt that they found tax dodging - Trump is a very dodgy businessman at best. Trump would have to settle up plus penalties. The IRS cannot disclose these settlements. That is why he won't publish his tax records. It's because they will show tax dodging.

jooksavage

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

If Trump were a serial tax dodger (as in evading taxes), the IRS would have nailed him long ago, just like they nail thousands of tax dodgers every year. Like any extremely wealthy person in the US, he has an army of accountants who make sure he stays within the IRS code while avoiding paying more tax than he has to. Nothing ethical about it, but it is (sadly) very American.

I don't think he's at all worried about tax dodging coming to light (didn't he say paying less tax meant he was a "smart person" during his 2016 campaign). More likely, Tim O'Brien's assessment of his wealth will turn out to be true: far from being a billionaire, Trump might worth less than 10% of what he has claimed. Shattering his image as a gold toilet-owning bigshot would probably do more than to his standing among his base than 20 indictments.

check_six

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Trump would have to settle up plus penalties. The IRS cannot disclose these settlements. That is why he won't publish his tax records. It's because they will show tax dodging.

Do they not publish tax defaulters names, liabilities, and penalties in the U.S.? In Ireland they publish lists of names of the big dodgers in the newspapers every year. I don't know why they would keep it private.

Brian?

everlast75 wrote: »

That, or else he knows exactly what he is doing and his followers don't care as they are part of his cult of personality.

I'd ask any of his defenders to support him on his refusal to disclose his taxes for example.

This is the really terrifying thing for me. I believe he's not insane and is acting this way on purpose. It's much worse than if he was actually insane

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

My line about it being far from a socialist model seems to have skipped you.

No it didn't. The GOP called Obamacare a stepping stone towards socialised medicine, when it's nothing of the sort.

It is a way more cut throat model than here and very ineffective.

"Here" being Ireland? Or the US?

Why ineffective?

ancapailldorcha

everlast75 wrote: »

Fantastic podcast from Trumpcast, with the journalist Philip Bump just released.

A really good insight into the situation in the States at present and in it, they talk about the view that people cheat obviously because they want to win, but that they then rationalise it (should they need to on a moral level) by saying or believing that everyone is doing it, and you are naive to think otherwise.

It is on those grounds that Trump supporters don't care if he lies, cheats or bullies his way to the top.

So we can argue with his supporters here all day and all night, but they will never admit we are right, because they know what he is, and they don't care, because of the foregoing.

How do you rate Trumpcast? Is it usually quite good?

Professor Moriarty

check_six wrote: »

Do they not publish tax defaulters names, liabilities, and penalties in the U.S.? In Ireland they publish lists of names of the big dodgers in the newspapers every year. I don't know why they would keep it private.

Apparently, in the US, your tax affairs are strictly confidential unless you give permission for their release and this includes the IRS. Unless you are being investigated by state authorities - like Trump is in NY. That's what I've read but I'm open to correction.

Brian?

jooksavage wrote: »

I don't think he's at all worried about tax dodging coming to light (didn't he say paying less tax meant he was a "smart person" during his 2016 campaign). More likely, Tim O'Brien's assessment of his wealth will turn out to be true: far from being a billionaire, Trump might worth less than 10% of what he has claimed. Shattering his image as a gold toilet-owning bigshot would probably do more than to his standing among his base than 20 indictments.

I think you're 100% right. If we see his tax return it'll show he has lost the majority of the money his Daddy left him and shine a light on how poor a business man he really is.

batgoat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How do you rate Trumpcast? Is it usually quite good?

I would recommend Mueller She Wrote...

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Reading over the last posts there is so much confusion between what you personally want and what is right from a business perspective
So many posters questioning my knowledge regards audits
I work in tax specifically tax avoidance
I know what audits are
Can even one poster here tell me they work in tax or a related field
If so I would like us to discuss the issue here
I cannot possibly respond to so many posters who are attacking my knowledge and yet They themselves offer no real alternative
Their chants are similar to lock her up or produce your birth
I am open to a poster here and me debating this issue if they are qualified to
Also the guy whose family farm was audited you do understand A farm is a just a tad small fish compared to a billion dollar audit.

batgoat

We have it solely on Trump's word that he's being audited, he has previously lied that he can't legally release them. So seems fair to not trust him on anything tax related.

SeamusFX

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

Their chants are similar to lock her up or produce your birth

So you’re admitting those chants are insane BS!

Brian?

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

Reading over the last posts there is so much confusion between what you personally want and what is right from a business perspective
So many posters questioning my knowledge regards audits
I work in tax specifically tax avoidance
I know what audits are
Can even one poster here tell me they work in tax or a related field
If so I would like us to discuss the issue here
I cannot possibly respond to so many posters who are attacking my knowledge and yet They themselves offer no real alternative
Their chants are similar to lock her up or produce your birth
I am open to a poster here and me debating this issue if they are qualified to
Also the guy whose family farm was audited you do understand A farm is a just a tad small fish compared to a billion dollar audit.

If his personally being audited it's a much smaller deal than you're making it out to be. If his company is being audited it's a massive deal.

Either way releasing his tax returns to the public will have zero effect on the audit. As the IRS already have the tax return. What could they possibly learn by it being made public?

Professor Moriarty

Karsyn Tender Rifle wrote: »

Reading over the last posts there is so much confusion between what you personally want and what is right from a business perspective
So many posters questioning my knowledge regards audits
I work in tax specifically tax avoidance
I know what audits are
Can even one poster here tell me they work in tax or a related field
If so I would like us to discuss the issue here
I cannot possibly respond to so many posters who are attacking my knowledge and yet They themselves offer no real alternative
Their chants are similar to lock her up or produce your birth
I am open to a poster here and me debating this issue if they are qualified to
Also the guy whose family farm was audited you do understand A farm is a just a tad small fish compared to a billion dollar audit.

What are your qualifications?

dinorebel

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What are your qualifications?

Trump University at a guess.

Leroy42

I guess it all comes down to transparency.

Do you believe that the public should be informed about the type of people, and the interests and potential conflicts they may have, when we elect them?

Is it right that a person heavily invested in Tobacco, for eg, should be the person deciding whether cigarettes are a health danger or not?

It goes very much to the motivation behind a persons actions? Is Trump heavily indebted to Russia banks, if so would that offer any additional insight into his desire for closer ties to Russia?
Has Trump been given special treatment by US banks that may have lead to him being more open to reducing the regulations around that sector?
How much does Trump stand to gain, and his family, from the tax changes he brought in?

Are these not legitimate and usual questions for people to ask? It is not about tax avoidance or tax evasion. It is not about how complicated his taxes are. It goes to the trust one can place in a man that asks that everybody believes in him, yet consistently refuses to provide any evidence that he is on the straight and narrow.

As you say, you are involved in Tax avoidance. Can you name me cases where you simply wrote a letter to the tax authorities telling them that everything was fine but you won't show them any evidence but they simply have to believe you? For that is exactly what you are asking others to do with Trump.

Politicians, by the very mature of the responsibilities they are given, should look to strive for a higher standard that simply trying to get away with it. It flows from the top down, if Trump is saying that he doesn't need to tell anyone, then why should anyone else. And where will that lead?

jooksavage

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How do you rate Trumpcast? Is it usually quite good?

It's usually decent. Jacob Weisberg left a few months ago which was a shame because he was a really good presenter. He's gone off doing some stuff with Malcolm Gladwell. His replacement, Yascha Mounk is finding his feet and turning out to be a pretty good host.

Some people find main presenter Virginia Heffernan a bit annoying. I think she's grand. Some of her attempts at wordplay and poetic flourishes during her monologues are a bit corny but she's a fine interviewer and a very amiable host.

The podcast isn't as single-minded about its topic as you might think. Recent episodes have covered topics like Fox News, the state of the Democratic Party and white nationalism.