Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

RIGOLO

Okay I can see the geeks are outnumbered here...

The Trump administration is doing so much for the US Space industry.

SPD-1 - Directive to NASA to put us back on the moon
SPD-2 - Directive for new licensing of reuseable rockets and reentry
SPD-3 - Directive for a Space traffic management system
SPD-4 - Directive for a new space force.....

What a story, taken as a collective , the scientific community must be over the moon (i like that pun) , but it cant be broadcast too loudly or commended as Trump is behind it.

Meanwhile Obama spent the first few years of his regime doing reviews and reports and then pulling the plug on some projects and sending US astronauts to the ISS on Russian rockets.. hows that for collusion.

Yep its a huge story, should be front and center, a new dawn of space exploration and consolidation that could be capturing the imagination of the next generation insteads its barely registering as a major news story becasue its positive and its Trump related, but its sill Mueller et al on the main stream news to get the advertising clicks.

Leroy42

So Rigolo, still nothing on the length of time of investigations? Have you given up on that and moved in to the space force?

Ultros

Smollett has been arrested for his staged hate crime, live press conference in link

https://abc7chicago.com/jussie-smollett-in-custody-after-being-charged-with-disorderly-conduct/5148577/

everlast75

Eric Cartman wrote: »

it does make sense. There are many on here who wifully accepted the result of the hillary investigation and have declared her innocent of any wrongdoing. Many of those people believe that mueller has evidence that will directly put away donald trump or trump jr. The question im asking is , if this investigation concludes that there is nothing to put them away over, will the same level of belief of innocence be afforded to trump and trump jr by the posters who believe the hillary investigation ended with the correct conclusion.

I cannot speak for everyone else, but in my view - if Mueller was allowed to carry out his investigations and it comes to its natural conclusion that Trump was not colluding with Russia, then yes - I will accept that report. 100%.

The problem I have is the 1000+ public attacks on the investigation by Trump, the consistent attacks on those in charge of the investigation, the firing of those involved, harassment of witnesses, dangling of pardons etc.

Surely you will accept that the average person will naturally think there is an issue with an investigation when the "innocent party" is so manifestly against any such investigation. And that, is ALL on Trump. He has lead the charge.

So if people don't accept it, well he has no one to blame but himself.

ancapailldorcha

Uncivil posts deleted. No more please.

FrostyJack

RIGOLO wrote: »

Great day for all the geeks , especially space geeks.

"Greetings citizens... would you like to know more?"

RIGOLO wrote:

SPD-1 - Directive to NASA to put us back on the moon
SPD-2 - Directive for new licensing of reuseable rockets and reentry
SPD-3 - Directive for a Space traffic management system
SPD-4 - Directive for a new space force.....

What a story, taken as a collective , the scientific community must be over the moon (i like that pun) , but it cant be broadcast too loudly or commended as Trump is behind it.

Meanwhile Obama spent the first few years of his regime doing reviews and reports and then pulling the plug on some projects and sending US astronauts to the ISS on Russian rockets.. hows that for collusion.

Yep its a huge story, should be front and center, a new dawn of space exploration and consolidation that could be capturing the imagination of the next generation insteads its barely registering as a major news story becasue its positive and its Trump related, but its sill Mueller et al on the main stream news to get the advertising clicks.

It is great Space travel is being invested in, but if any of his other business dealings are to go by rockets will be made in China and companies who get the contracts will be his son in laws or someone who doesn't believe in space.
Funny you should say the scientific community are muted on it, maybe he forgot to lift the gag orders on NASA? Pretty sure when Obama took over there was a massive recession on, so spending on projects like moon landings would be frowned upon.

DrumSteve

FrostyJack wrote: »

"Greetings citizens... would you like to know more?"




It is great Space travel is being invested in, but if any of his other business dealings are to go by rockets will be made in China and companies who get the contracts will be his son in laws or someone who doesn't believe in space.
Funny you should say the scientific community are muted on it, maybe he forgot to lift the gag orders on NASA? Pretty sure when Obama took over there was a massive recession on, so spending on projects like moon landings would be frowned upon.

I wonder how all the flat earthers will react to space force since I'd imagine they would be a large proportion of his voter base.

Anyway, this is all a distraction for him. The country is 22 trillion in debt, I doubt they have the money to be going to the moon at the moment.

duploelabs

everlast75 wrote: »

I cannot speak for everyone else, but in my view - if Mueller was allowed to carry out his investigations and it comes to its natural conclusion that Trump was not colluding with Russia, then yes - I will accept that report. 100%.

The problem I have is the 1000+ public attacks on the investigation by Trump, the consistent attacks on those in charge of the investigation, the firing of those involved, harassment of witnesses, dangling of pardons etc.

Surely you will accept that the average person will naturally think there is an issue with an investigation when the "innocent party" is so manifestly against any such investigation. And that, is ALL on Trump. He has lead the charge.

So if people don't accept it, well he has no one to blame but himself.

Hard to see past the obstruction of justice charge as its all there in plain sight, and the penalties for that would be as severe as the crime itself

RIGOLO

FrostyJack wrote: »

"Greetings citizens... would you like to know more?"




It is great Space travel is being invested in, but if any of his other business dealings are to go by rockets will be made in China and companies who get the contracts will be his son in laws or someone who doesn't believe in space.
Funny you should say the scientific community are muted on it, maybe he forgot to lift the gag orders on NASA? Pretty sure when Obama took over there was a massive recession on, so spending on projects like moon landings would be frowned upon.

Nah thats very unlikely he would give any of the contracts to China .
In fact its a very misinformed and glib comment .

Trump Administration have come down on China harder than a Titan rocket. In fact its been all over the news for 2 years.
Just ask the Huawei executive sitting in custody in Canada awaiting extradition to the US.

I guess Obama had to save all the money to bail out Wall Street , rather than investing in NASA.

mcmoustache

duploelabs wrote: »

Hard to see past the obstruction of justice charge as its all there in plain sight, and the penalties for that would be as severe as the crime itself

He admitted it on TV. This is what gets me. So much of the evidence is in plain sight. I know he told his followers not to believe what they see with their own eyes and instead take his word but it's mad that they actually go along with it.

I mean, how do Trump supporters view Trump saying "I fired him because of the Rusher thing" as being anything other that an admission that he fired Comey because of the investigation into Russian interference? Sure, they can argue that he hasn't been charged with OOJ but that's a copout when you consider DOJ policy on indicting a sitting president.

RIGOLO

mcmoustache wrote: »

He admitted it on TV. This is what gets me. So much of the evidence is in plain sight. I know he told his followers not to believe what they see with their own eyes and instead take his word but it's mad that they actually go along with it.

I mean, how do Trump supporters view Trump saying "I fired him because of the Rusher thing" as being anything other that an admission that he fired Comey because of the investigation into Russian interference? Sure, they can argue that he hasn't been charged with OOJ but that's a copout when you consider DOJ policy on indicting a sitting president.

If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any .

prawnsambo

Isn't Roger Stone up before the beak today to apologise for all his transgressions and beg not to be sent to the big house? Or has that happened already?

everlast75

RIGOLO wrote: »

If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any .

Again - THE REPORT HAS NOT YET BEEN RELEASED.

How can you fail to grasp that concept? It really is very basic stuff.

everlast75

prawnsambo wrote: »

Isn't Roger Stone up before the beak today to apologise for all his transgressions and beg not to be sent to the big house? Or has that happened already?

Yes - 2:30pm local time. I guess that makes it 7:30pm our time?

I'll have the popcorn ready, but I reckon the gag Order will be expanded. I'd love for him to go to jail for breach of the conditions, as they were so egregious.

mcmoustache

RIGOLO wrote: »

If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any .

Why do you think Mueller doesn't have any? Just because he didn't tell you doesn't mean he doesn't have any. This shouldn't have to be explained to an adult.

If an investigator comes across a piece of evidence of a crime, they don't go to the public with it and say, "We're done here". They continue to gather evidence and put a case together so that they can take it all to a grand jury and get an indictment based on the narrative revealed by the evidence.

Why you would think that you know what Mueller has is baffling.

mcmoustache

everlast75 wrote: »

Yes - 2:30pm local time. I guess that makes it 7:30pm our time?

I'll have the popcorn ready, but I reckon the gag Order will be expanded. I'd love for him to go to jail for breach of the conditions, as they were so egregious.

I agree. I think he'll be gagged himself and then he'll break the gag order and land himself in jail.

RIGOLO

mcmoustache wrote: »

Why do you think Mueller doesn't have any? Just because he didn't tell you doesn't mean he doesn't have any. This shouldn't have to be explained to an adult.

If an investigator comes across a piece of evidence of a crime, they don't go to the public with it and say, "We're done here". They continue to gather evidence and put a case together so that they can take it all to a grand jury and get an indictment based on the narrative revealed by the evidence.

Why you would think that you know what Mueller has is baffling.

I dont presume to know what Mueller has.

Theres 5 gazillion posts and five thread later , most of it speculation on what Mueller has or hasnt.

Are you saying I cant offer my opinion ?

Gbear

everlast75 wrote: »

I cannot speak for everyone else, but in my view - if Mueller was allowed to carry out his investigations and it comes to its natural conclusion that Trump was not colluding with Russia, then yes - I will accept that report. 100%.

How you determine the quality of someone's ability to argue isn't really dependent on how often they actually end up correct, but by the process by which they argue.

It's also probably the best way to determine the quality of your own arguments. Whether you end up right or wrong, you don't have anything to feel embarrassed about so long as you argued in good faith and your arguments were intellectually honest.

If someone has no point at which they would accept Trump is guilty of wrongdoing, their position is not falsifiable. It's not a point of debate along rational lines then, but rather the cultish behaviour of faith.
They can obfuscate that they're doing that sometimes, by, for example, moving goalposts, but it's usually pretty transparent.

If you dismiss the very possibility of wrongdoing, deny the reality of what has already transpired (indictments and convictions), invent reasons to attack the credibility of the investigation that have no basis, such as the duration, claim that it exonerates Trump or his admin, when a report makes no claims one way or the other until it's released, or draw imaginary distinctions between the kinds of crimes that have already surfaced and "real crimes", then you are not engaging in debate, you're chanting your articles of faith.

prawnsambo

RIGOLO wrote: »

I dont presume to know what Mueller has.

Theres 5 gazillion posts and five thread later , most of it speculation on what Mueller has or hasnt.

Are you saying I cant offer my opinion ?

This looks awfully like a statement of fact. I'm trying to read an opinion in this, but failing miserably.

RIGOLO wrote: »

If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any .

mcmoustache

RIGOLO wrote: »

I dont presume to know what Mueller has.

Theres 5 gazillion posts and five thread later , most of it speculation on what Mueller has or hasnt.

Are you saying I cant offer my opinion ?

You just said that Mueller can't find any. That's more than offering an opinion. It's a factual claim that you are making without any basis in fact.

Professor Moriarty

RIGOLO wrote: »

I dont presume to know what Mueller has.

Theres 5 gazillion posts and five thread later , most of it speculation on what Mueller has or hasnt.

Are you saying I cant offer my opinion ?

Your opinion is fine, but could you back it up with evidence? Especially when you say this:

"If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any ."

My understanding is that there are a few prominent people in jail or being tried as a result of Mueller's investigation.

Manic Moran

pixelburp wrote: »

In a general sense, do you think the words - or indeed the actions in some legislative sense - of the President can have an affect on peoples' behaviours or their own actions as individuals?

If the President is seen to equivocate and passively defend (say) White Nationalists, doesn't it track that those Nationalists will then feel emboldened by the President's 'actions'? If Trump (repeatedly) calls the Free Press the "Enemy of the People", and there's an uptick in attacks on journalists - including those mail bombs - it would equally track the President's words emboldened those committing the deeds.

Obviously the officer's crime would be a problem with any President, but the argument is that this particular President is building an atmosphere where extremists can feel empowered or possess a sense of justification in their actions by dint of the President's words. Trump is normalising it, however passively.

His commentary is entirely unpresidential, inaccurate, inappropriate, and whatever other adjective you likely care to use. But I don't seem to recall him saying anything about using violence on journalists or whatnot. The decisions to do something which anyone with basic knowledge of civics knows is very illegal are the responsibility of that person, who obviously doesn't care about civic responsibility to begin with. I mean, sure, a sexual predator would not have felt emboldened had the woman not been wearing a short skirt, or a mugging victim shouldn't have gone to the wrong part of town, but there is only one person who actually bears responsibility for the illegal actions. A similar standard should apply here. This guy was inspired by Brevik. Who 'normalised' Brevik's actions in Norway to encourage him to shoot seventy odd people?

Midlife

RIGOLO wrote: »

I dont presume to know what Mueller has.

Theres 5 gazillion posts and five thread later , most of it speculation on what Mueller has or hasnt.

Are you saying I cant offer my opinion ?

Mueller has Trump rattled, that's for sure.

He has jail time for many people who were close to Trump who are no doubt now talking about Trump.

He has evidence of Trump breaking the law, he has evidence of Trump deliberatly lying to the American people.

And he clearly has Trump freaking out.

There'll be a lot more 'executive time' in Trump's future I think.

You can search and then post news from a couple of days ago about some pointless space force and basically say....

QUICK LOOK OVER HERE!!!!!

But the reality is that Trump is very very worried about the investigation, he no longer has control of Government, so laud all the pointless bills you want, they'll be undone with the stroke of a pen as as soon as he's gone. The chance to get something done was when you had both houses but the single worst politician anyone can remember couldn't even make deals with his own party.

And all while this goes on, his numbers have dropped massivly since the election.

The whole thing has been an unmitigated disaster. For him, for his family, for his businesses, for America.

DrumSteve

Manic Moran wrote: »

His commentary is entirely unpresidential, inaccurate, inappropriate, and whatever other adjective you likely care to use. But I don't seem to recall him saying anything about using violence on journalists or whatnot. The decisions to do something which anyone with basic knowledge of civics knows is very illegal are the responsibility of that person, who obviously doesn't care about civic responsibility to begin with. I mean, sure, a sexual predator would not have felt emboldened had the woman not been wearing a short skirt, or a mugging victim shouldn't have gone to the wrong part of town, but there is only one person who actually bears responsibility for the illegal actions. A similar standard should apply here. This guy was inspired by Brevik. Who 'normalised' Brevik's actions in Norway to encourage him to shoot seventy odd people?

I don't know about that, he keeps referring to them as the enemy of people. That's a dog whistle if ever there was one for something to be done about them.

ECO_Mental

RIGOLO wrote: »

Its been over 2 years, and Mueller still hasnt come up with anything illegal done by Trump.

Trump is an un-indicted co-conspirator in Federal Campaign financial laws. The ONLY reason he is not indicted is because he is President....so that statement is complete and utter nonsense.



And yes you might say he is not convicted of anything and deserves he day in court and WE ALL would love to see that and defend himself. But I dont think he would stand chance since his other co-conspirator already plead GUILTY......and is looking forward to a few years in the big house:rolleyes:



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/nyregion/michael-cohen-sentence.html

everlast75

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Trump is an un-indicted co-conspirator in Federal Campaign financial laws. The ONLY reason he is not indicted is because he is President....so that statement is complete and utter nonsense.



And yes you might say he is not convicted of anything and deserves he day in court and WE ALL would love to see that and defend himself. But I dont think he would stand chance since his other co-conspirator already plead GUILTY......and is looking forward to a few years in the big house:rolleyes:



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/nyregion/michael-cohen-sentence.html

Don't forget Paulie!

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1098623404444450816

Ultros

DrumSteve wrote: »

I don't know about that, he keeps referring to them as the enemy of people. That's a dog whistle if ever there was one for something to be done about them.

I agree.. realizing the death and suffering first and foremost such an attack would cause, for selfish political reasons alone if a real attack occurred on a journalist with intent to physically harm and there was ample proof they were inspired by Trump's rhetoric there's no coming back from that. It's playing with fire, both for journalists safety and his own political future.

He should just call "the fake news media" an arm of the Democratic party or something of similar ilk which gets the same point across to his supporters but on a more playful or softer level. Enemy is too strong a word even though I agree with him in the sense that the elite media in the US besides Fox has a heavy left wing slant and they've been relentless in their attacks on his administration.

Quin_Dub

Ultros wrote: »

I agree.. realizing the death and suffering first and foremost such an attack would cause, for selfish political reasons alone if a real attack occurred on a journalist with intent to harm and there was ample proof they were inspired by Trump's rhetoric there's no coming back from that. It's playing with fire, both for journalists safety and his own political future.

He should just call "the fake news media" an arm of the Democratic party or something of similar ilk which gets the same point across to his supporters but on a more playful or softer level. Enemy is too strong a word even though I agree with him in the sense that the elite media in the US besides Fox has a heavy left wing slant and they've been relentless in their attacks on his administration.

And Fox are wildly skewed to the right - It's swings and roundabouts.

Isn't the real problem that the media merely reflects the horrendously partisan nature of the country as a whole?

Everyone(on all sides) is aligned to "them or us" there is no compromise.

The media is reflective of society at large..

RIGOLO

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Your opinion is fine, but could you back it up with evidence? Especially when you say this:

"If theres so much evidence in plain sight, how come Mueller cant find any ."

My understanding is that there are a few prominent people in jail or being tried as a result of Mueller's investigation.

It was another person who said ... theres so much evidence in plain sight..
I just pointed out if there is so much , how come Muller hasnt found him guilty of anything illegal.

And the un-indicted co-conspirator individual has not been named.
Even if it had been, Mueller still has to get evidence, prove it in a court of law and bring a sitting POTUS to the dock. Bringing a case based on a statement from a plea deal would be dismissed by first year law clerk.

Nah Muellers going nowhere and the DNC insiders know it, thats why Pelosi and the like have toned down their rhetoric on Mueller, they know its a busted flush.
He went two hops out with the investigation and has pinned some stuff on a few associates. Like I said its the old KGB tactics, bring me the man and I will find you the crime.

And for a poster to call the Space force 'pointless' , shows a real lack of vision. Israel is launching a moon lander tonight , China put something on the dark side a few weeks back, and people think Trump is announcing a Space Force , doing this as a distraction .
Its a great move, a great measure, the sort of bold move we were used to seeing from the US but we never saw from the last guy , unless it involved some 'ism.

eire4

DrumSteve wrote: »

I don't know about that, he keeps referring to them as the enemy of people. That's a dog whistle if ever there was one for something to be done about them.

No question about that. He has been constantly going after the MSM in the US and stoking up anger against them and given the rampant gun violence in the US that is very dangerous indeed. Look at the case of the guy in Florida Cesar Sayoc recently who sent the various explosive devices in the post to many media figures as well as politicians he hated. No question he is ultimately responsible for his actions. But equally there is no question that the President has stoked hatred of the media and anybody pretty much who is not far to the right and has a high profile be it politician or otherwise.