eCars get €10m to develop 150kW charging network

KCross

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

€10m for ESB eCars to develop a national vehicle charging network.

She said: “Our proposal is to install over 100 high-powered (150kW) chargers at key locations on the national road network. These chargers which will typically provide an additional driving range of 100km in six minutes.

And they are replacing the 50kW rapids... thats a surprise!



Bring it on....

ELM327

€10m is nothing...
the same €10million they were supposed to get last budget too??

Will reserve any excitement until I see a map of the locations and we can see 3-4 FCP per site.

KCross

eCars submission for the funds had this....

Six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously

16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously

Additional high power chargers at 34 current 50kW DC locations

Upgrading over 50 x 22kW AC chargers to 50kW DC

Replacing up to 264 (528 charge points) pre-existing Pilot Grade 22kW AC chargers to next generation high reliability models

Decent plan if they deliver it in a meaningful timeframe.

Good to see that the existing ones will have redundancy built in. They finally understand the concept of single point of failure.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

€10m for ESB eCars to develop a national vehicle charging network.

She said: “Our proposal is to install over 100 high-powered (150kW) chargers at key locations on the national road network. These chargers which will typically provide an additional driving range of 100km in six minutes.

And they are replacing the 50kW rapids... thats a surprise!



Bring it on....

Charger, upgrades to electricity grid, parcels... I doubt they will have 30 chargers for 10M...

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

€10m is nothing...
the same €10million they were supposed to get last budget too??

Will reserve any excitement until I see a map of the locations and we can see 3-4 FCP per site.

This is nothing to do with the €10m in the budget which covers things like VRT, home charge grant, taxi grant, tolls etc.

This is "new" money from the Climate Action budget... which has €500m to hand out.

See previous post with their plan which looks decent.

The bit we dont know is the timeline.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

This is nothing to do with the €10m in the budget which covers things like VRT, home charge grant, taxi grant, tolls etc.

This is "new" money from the Climate Action budget... which has €500m to hand out.

See previous post with their plan which looks decent.

The bit we dont know is the timeline.

Sorry, I was being facetious, as the previous 10million had done next to nothing.
The plan looks decent.
But until we see specifics (locations, multiple FCP per site) I will reserve judgement.


I'm interested that they are exchanging 22kW AC for 50kW DC in places too. A strange move. Unless that is, someone has sense and realises that 150kW is the new "fast" charger and 50kW is quickly becoming a "mild fast" charger in the way that 22kW was for the Zoe.

KCross

grogi wrote: »

Charger, upgrades to electricity grid, parcels... I doubt they will have 30 chargers for 10M...

Bear in mind this is funding the government is providing. Thats not to say that it costs €10m. eCars can bump that up with their own funds.

They obviously believe they will own, operate and charge for this network as they have already annoucned charging for charging for 2H 2019.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Sorry, I was being facetious, as the previous 10million had done next to nothing.
The plan looks decent.
But until we see specifics (locations, multiple FCP per site) I will reserve judgement.


I'm interested that they are exchanging 22kW AC for 50kW DC in places too. A strange move.

Thats there too, see previous post.

Timeline is the big question.

Location is "along national routes" so definitely not going to be in the Naas shopping centre!

Mike9832

Nice

All they need to do is charge well for it now

Waste of time letting freloaders use it

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm interested that they are exchanging 22kW AC for 50kW DC in places too. A strange move.

My guess on this is that they will focus on the ones that they know already have the required grid infrastructure in place.

i.e. It will just be a case of swapping out the unit. No major digging or infrastructure upgrades required.

Just my guess.

It probably costs them as much to maintain a 50kW as a 22kW and they will be able to charge more and get more turnover for a 50kW. Business decision.

liamog

Were the dual socket 22kW chargers capable of supplying 2x22kW? if so replacing it with a single 50kW likely wouldn't need a grid change.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

Were the dual socket 22kW chargers capable of supplying 2x22kW? if so replacing it with a single 50kW likely wouldn't need a grid change.

I dont think so
1x22 or 2x11

Soarer

*starts saving for new Porsche Taycan*

Zenith74

ELM327 wrote: »

€10m is nothing...
the same €10million they were supposed to get last budget too??

Will reserve any excitement until I see a map of the locations and we can see 3-4 FCP per site.

I'd hope the fact this fund already has the monies allocated and that eCars are now committed to running the network (no more talk of selling it off yada yada) should mean this will move quickly. Edit: Moved to the "Validation" stage now apparently (https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/climate-action/topics/climate-action-fund/call-for-applications/first-call-2018/project-assessments/Pages/default.aspx)

Here is a photo of the locations eCars announced for the new 4x150kw and 2x150kw super hubs - https://twitter.com/nextecocar/status/1055435015172034561?s=21
No guarantee of course, but it's a good sign...

FWIW I’ve started to post this kind of thing at https://reddit.com/r/evs_ireland as I think news and interesting bits of info like this are easier to see there than disappearing in a thread or Facebook group...

Zenith74

KCross wrote: »

Location is "along national routes" so definitely not going to be in the Naas shopping centre!

Looking at the map eCars showed, which is admittedly pretty wooly, but it wood look like the "fast hub" in Naas shopping centre will be converted to 4-bay (whatever that means) 1x150kw & 1x50kw.

ELM327

Those photos look promising @Zenith
They called out "multiple chargers per location" specifically

(I hope they rip the Naas unit out btw)

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

Those photos look promising @Zenith
They called out "multiple chargers per location" specifically

(I hope they rip the Naas unit out btw)

I also love that the fact that 'charging for charging should be introduced in H1 2019'...

ED E

As a non EV driver what I've gleamed from keeping an eye on here and elsewhere is that eCars have been disastrous stewards of the CP network. Faults left outstanding, working marked as out of service, out of service marked as working etc.

Does extra infra mean much if eCars still aren't bothered to keep things ticking over?

rolion

ED E wrote: »

As a non EV driver what I've gleamed from keeping an eye on here and elsewhere is that eCars have been disastrous stewards of the CP network. Faults left outstanding, working marked as out of service, out of service marked as working etc.

Does extra infra mean much if eCars still aren't bothered to keep things ticking over?

As you may know,everytime we plug in "my" EV to charge it costs nothing...a free service,take it as it is.
I will not have the guts to call eCars and begin shouting and complaing that x y z charger(s) doesnt work properly or for a period of time.

With a service that we have to pay and they have will receive a payment,there will be a formal SLA / contract to maintain and keep them optimised at maximum parameters that satisfy the paying party while company making a profit.

Looking forward to charged charging ...

Zenith74

ED E wrote: »

As a non EV driver what I've gleamed from keeping an eye on here and elsewhere is that eCars have been disastrous stewards of the CP network. Faults left outstanding, working marked as out of service, out of service marked as working etc.

Does extra infra mean much if eCars still aren't bothered to keep things ticking over?

To be fair ESB are excellent at many things they do, this is not like giving the HSE control of the network and hoping for the best. It sounds like eCars had issues with being improperly funded, they built the network well before there was demand for it so struggled to get support and for the past while there have been discussions about the government selling the network off. All in all not a recipe for a quality well supported service. It sounds like a good few of these issues are in the process of being resolved, so I’m hopeful.

I’d also say that as an EV driver, the only bad experiences I’ve had is the more recent phenomenon of queuing. Only once come across a faulty charger which eCars managed to fix over the phone. eCars has answered every call and email I’ve ever sent them. I know some people are affected more than others by being near problematic chargers, but it is certainly not all doom and gloom...

liamog

ED E wrote: »

As a non EV driver what I've gleamed from keeping an eye on here and elsewhere is that eCars have been disastrous stewards of the CP network. Faults left outstanding, working marked as out of service, out of service marked as working etc.

Does extra infra mean much if eCars still aren't bothered to keep things ticking over?

To give credit to ESB they became the stewards of a network that they didn't own. Does anyone have feedback on how they are running the taxi network for TfL?

Stealthirl

KCross wrote: »

eCars submission for the funds had this....

Six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously

16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously

Additional high power chargers at 34 current 50kW DC locations

Upgrading over 50 x 22kW AC chargers to 50kW DC

Replacing up to 264 (528 charge points) pre-existing Pilot Grade 22kW AC chargers to next generation high reliability models

Decent plan if they deliver it in a meaningful timeframe.

Good to see that the existing ones will have redundancy built in. They finally understand the concept of single point of failure.

Zenith74 wrote: »

Total ESB CHAdeMO: 62
Total ESB Combo DC: 43
Total ESB Fast AC (Type-2): 51
Total ESB Type-2: 567
Total Other CHAdeMO: 33
Total Other Combo DC: 12
Total Other Fast AC (Type-2): 13
Total Other Type-2: 490

Sound like almost every current fast cp will get at least 1 additional point

Padraig Mor

Meh, my take on this is that it means that usage charges will be higher than many expect, and this announcement is just fluff to sugar the pill - I'll believe in this new network when I actually see it.

ELM327

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Meh, my take on this is that it means that usage charges will be higher than many expect, and this announcement is just fluff to sugar the pill - I'll believe in this new network when I actually see it.

If they implement the charges they have in the UK I will be happy with that.


https://www.esb-evsolutions.co.uk/#our-pricing


25p/kWh + £4/month

29p/kWh and no subscription
25p/kWh and no subscription for 12 months for Taxis.

25p is approx 29c and 29p is approx 33c, I'd be happy to pay 33c/kWh if there were multiple chargers per site and the operator actually cared about uptime of the units due to monetary gains.

That would mean it would cost me (28kWh * 0.94 * 0.33) €8.68 to fill up from absolutely empty to 94% full. In reality I'd arrive with 5-15% so around €8. That €8 would get me ~180km at least so still cheaper than any fossil fuel car (no car will get 2.8l/100km)

DrPhilG

ELM327 the difference is that in the UK they have significant competition for chargers. Here there is only the anticipated arrival of Ionity, which are CCS only so no good to the majority of Irish EVs.

In good old rip off Ireland I fully expect them to charge closer to 50c per kWh and also a hefty connection fee.

liamog

DrPhilG wrote: »

ELM327 the difference is that in the UK they have significant competition for chargers. Here there is only the anticipated arrival of Ionity, which are CCS only so no good to the majority of Irish EVs.

In good old rip off Ireland I fully expect them to charge closer to 50c per kWh and also a hefty connection fee.

It would suck, but if they tried that Instavolt might jump the Irish sea.
At the moment you'd be insane to compete against a free service, competing against an overpriced is straightforward.

September1

I'm quite disappointed that this funding goes to biggest player in the market, it would be better if funds were allocated to other operators and eCars used own resources and income from future charges to fund their network.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

ELM327 the difference is that in the UK they have significant competition for chargers. Here there is only the anticipated arrival of Ionity, which are CCS only so no good to the majority of Irish EVs.

In good old rip off Ireland I fully expect them to charge closer to 50c per kWh and also a hefty connection fee.

They are cheaper than other competitors in that market though.

Ionity is supporting all new EVs that you can buy now (except of course the Nissan leaf furnace) and in time that will be the major standard too.


I'd happily pay 50c/kWh for the 1-4 times a month i would use a fast charger (last time was in October) if I knew there were multiple FCP per site, 100kW supported etc


I don't think there will be a connection fee, it wasn't in the 2015 charges. To be honest if they bring in the 2015 charges without the €16 monthly fee then I'd be happy.
In 2015 they wanted to charge 30c/Minute which would be approx €9 for a full charge at 50kW and €6.60 at >100kW for an Ioniq, and it would remove the people charging to 100% full taking hours.

rolion

Can we drive around the country, with a fast charger in the range of not more than 100km point to point !??

ELM327

rolion wrote: »

Can we drive around the country, with a fast charger in the range of not more than 100km point to point !??

We can already do that.
I'd be very surprised if there was anywhere in Ireland that was less than 100km from multiple fast chargers tbh

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

We can already do that.
I'd be very surprised if there was anywhere in Ireland that was less than 100km from multiple fast chargers tbh

More than 100km you mean I presume?

Naas to Waterford is a good 140km without CCS chargers. Worse going from Dublin to the north west until recently when a few CHAdeMOs were replaced with triple heads

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

More than 100km you mean I presume?

Naas to Waterford is a good 140km without CCS chargers. Worse going from Dublin to the north west until recently when a few CHAdeMOs were replaced with triple heads

Yes, more than 100km.


There's nowhere on that route that is more than 100km from a CCS charger though. EG it's 140km between chargers but the most you can be away from a charger is 70km. 140km is a pretty manageable trip for most CCS cars anyway.

EDIT: Looking at ecars map that's now the biggest CCS hole in the country.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Worse going from Dublin to the north west until recently when a few CHAdeMOs were replaced with triple heads

Which ones were replaced? I think Monaghan was one, not sure where else?

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Which ones were replaced? I think Monaghan was one, not sure where else?

Monaghan, Ballaghadereen, longford, lagheys were all replaced recently?

KCross

I see eCars have a survey out asking for opinions on charging for charging... unit or time based, overstay fees etc etc.

Everyone else get that survey request?

Mickeroo

Yep, just completed it there and was hopping on here to mention it too.

Soarer

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

Just auto disconnect when the charge rate drops below a certain rate.... it will become useless to PHEV's then.

liamog

Soarer wrote: »

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

Charge & Drive in Norway charge 2.5nok/min for 50kW DC which is around 26c/min. It's the only logical way to discourage overstays, and use of the correct charger for the job, whilst still allowing emergency usage.

Black_Knight

No sign of a survey for me.
Did spot this after a google:
http://www.irishevowners.ie/esb-fcp-charging-fees-survey-summary/

jusmeig

I got it.

I answered "Charge per minute" - This should help the PHEV situation, they pay more for less and might charge at home as they don't "need" to use the public network like a BEV on a long run.
It will also help to stop people farming charge points
(Woman in Salin's train station I hope u are reading!!!)

Introducing a heafty overstay fine after a grace period was also suggested.
This is the only time I have ever welcomed charging!!!

zg3409

Email ecars@esb.ie before Wednesday29th of May 2019 to get a link to the survey. Survey runs for a week from today.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2344699052235052&id=159063610798618&ref=page_internal&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

Sabre Man

jusmeig wrote: »

I answered "Charge per minute" - This should help the PHEV situation, they pay more for less and might charge at home as they don't "need" to use the public network like a BEV on a long run.

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

jusmeig

Sabre Man wrote: »

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

How so?
You just pay for the time spent occupying the charger, you can stay and charge to 90 if you want.

Sabre Man

Sabre Man wrote: »

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

It's the "select the right tool for the job", i.e. if you need to rely on public network for regular driving the pricing will incentify you to get a better tool.

For the occasional trip having to pay extra to make it to the next charger sounds fair enough compromise over the expense to change of car that otherwise suits all your normal trips. Kind of pay an extra tenner a few times a month/year to save yourself 500 a month for a car loan for a new LEAF. But if you need to spend extra tenner once or twice a day every work day it makes sense to change your car to something more suitable and not to treat the public charger as you personal charger.

creedp

jusmeig wrote: »

How so?
You just pay for the time spent occupying the charger, you can stay and charge to 90 if you want.

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

creedp

samih wrote: »

It's the "select the right tool for the job", i.e. if you need to rely on public network for regular driving the pricing will incentify you to get a better tool.

For the occasional trip having to pay extra to make it to the next charger sounds fair enough compromise over the expense to change of car that otherwise suits all your normal trips. Kind of pay an extra tenner a few times a month/year to save yourself 500 a month for a car loan for a new LEAF. But if you need to spend extra tenner once or twice a day every work day it makes sense to change your car to something more suitable and not to treat the public charger as you personal charger.

TBF there's a big difference between hogging a charge point to squeeze the last electron into your battery especially if you are a local trying to save a few cent on your electricity and an EV driver who is simply trying to get a reasonable top-up to his/her destination. No problem dis-incentivising the former but don't really see the point of disadvantaging the latter.

jusmeig

creedp wrote: »

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

This was not an option ^^^. It was per kwh or time spent.
If this could be done (stop charge once rate drops) I would agree 100%.
Only issue with this is that it would be new and unexpected behavior for current users, so you would have chaos.
Id not use a 50kw charger unless my car could fast charge.
What cars have slower charge rates, even the 24kwh leaf can fast charge?

creedp

creedp wrote: »

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

Overstayers will pay the same amount per minute for the resourse their overstaying will hog. If you car charges quickly and a lot fair enough at it means you won't be using the limited resource as often as a slowly charging car with a small battery.

If the charge is based on the energy taken in it encourages PHEVs to continue to use MSA chargers which is not a good thing. Per minute charging ensures that you disconnect the minute you make it to somewhere cheaper to charge.

Sabre Man

creedp wrote: »

TBF there's a big difference between hogging a charge point to squeeze the last electron into your battery especially if you are a local trying to save a few cent on your electricity and an EV driver who is simply trying to get a reasonable top-up to his/her destination. No problem dis-incentivising the former but don't really see the point of disadvantaging the latter.

As long as it costs more to use public chargers than home chargers, nobody will use public chargers more than they have to.

creedp

Sabre Man wrote: »

As long as it costs more to use public chargers than home chargers, nobody will use public chargers more than they have to.

And if the public charging infrastructure was better people would not incentivised to try and fill their battery to the max at a much slower charge rate. They would simply unplug and move to the next charge site and charge as necessary.

Personally I don't think current EV owners should be disadvantaged by this new charging regime when they have also been equally affected by the freeloaders even those with spanking new EVs that charge to 100% at local FCPs to save a few bob on the leccy bill. Just because the Govt got away with fleecing pre 2008 car owners when favouring new diesel cars doesn't mean ecars should go down the same road although now that the 'Green Wave' is back watch this space.

Most of the freeloading problem will be removed by charging a rate per kwh which exceeds the domestic day / night rate.