Many immigrant workers needed if more houses to be built - ESRI

Graces7

See https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1121/1012303-housing/

Not sure what to make of this? Sounds convoluted

DubCount

Its catch 22. We need more builders, bricklayers, electricians, plumbers etc. to build the housing stock that we require. The only place to get them is to attract in immigrants, as we dont have enough skilled labour and cant train enough skilled labour. Unfortunately, lack of housing supply makes this an expensive place to live, so we cant attract skilled immigrant workers we need to make property more affordable.

Answers on a postcard.....

lalababa

DubCount wrote: »

Its catch 22. We need more builders, bricklayers, electricians, plumbers etc. to build the housing stock that we require. The only place to get them is to attract in immigrants, as we dont have enough skilled labour and cant train enough skilled labour. Unfortunately, lack of housing supply makes this an expensive place to live, so we cant attract skilled immigrant workers we need to make property more affordable.

Answers on a postcard.....

Design a "house" that conforms to the miriad of building reg.s that can be factory built, easily transported and erected on site, at minimal cost and minimal lesser skiled labour.
Couldn't see a problem in new estates where every house looks the same anyway.
Might be Abit stigmatized for the great washed however in one off housing as jhonny and Mary soap would want a proper block and mortor house just like the shower up the road.

listermint

Also heard on the Radio the other day that only 1 in 4 Construction firms actively take on apprenticeships. and 100% of construction firms are looking for trades.


Do they understand the catch 22 they have created for themselves....

JimmyMW

Graces7 wrote: »

See https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1121/1012303-housing/

Not sure what to make of this? Sounds convoluted

It all sounds very like the start of the downfall of the last boom, immigrants building housing to be purchased by landlords to rent back to the very immigrants employed to build them

zell12

JimmyMW wrote: »

It all sounds very like the start of the downfall of the last boom, immigrants building housing to be purchased by landlords to rent back to the very immigrants employed to build them

Stop talking down the economy!

Graces7

lalababa wrote: »

Design a "house" that conforms to the miriad of building reg.s that can be factory built, easily transported and erected on site, at minimal cost and minimal lesser skiled labour.
Couldn't see a problem in new estates where every house looks the same anyway.
Might be Abit stigmatized for the great washed however in one off housing as jhonny and Mary soap would want a proper block and mortor house just like the shower up the road.

Actually I live in one of those. A "demountable dwelling" they call it... more than adequate. I see them on the backs of lorries and they come in one piece.. I think they tried to put them in somewhere in Ireland and the locals complained..

godtabh

lalababa wrote: »

Design a "house" that conforms to the miriad of building reg.s that can be factory built, easily transported and erected on site, at minimal cost and minimal lesser skiled labour.
Couldn't see a problem in new estates where every house looks the same anyway.
Might be Abit stigmatized for the great washed however in one off housing as jhonny and Mary soap would want a proper block and mortor house just like the shower up the road.

I was involved in such a project. Prototype designed and built in China. The system was set up that once ground works were done 800 units could be built in 4-6 weeks.

A team was sent do a BCAR inspection. There was so many flaws that the plan was abandoned.

The same project sought local suppliers and were told it couldnt be done.

listermint

godtabh wrote: »

I was involved in such a project. Prototype designed and built in China. The system was set up that once ground works were done 800 units could be built in 4-6 weeks.

A team was sent do a BCAR inspection. There was so many flaws that the plan was abandoned.

The same project sought local suppliers and were told it couldnt be done.

tbh this sounds like the project manager and quality control was the problem. not the concept.

godtabh

listermint wrote: »

tbh this sounds like the project manager and quality control was the problem. not the concept.

Well yeah quality control was the issue. It failed BCAR inspections.

The whole point of prefab was to deliver affordable/quick/high quality solutions. It would appear you cant have all three.

4068ac1elhodqr

Immigrant workers won't be able to build them quick enough (to house the immigrant workers, and/or non-workers),
instead get the Fastbrick Robotics Limited^ (ASX:FBR), it lays blocks x4 faster than humans and wont even want a cup of tea, or sleep, or daylight, or holidays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bW1vuCgEaA

^ The Hadrian X features a 30-meter boom capable of placing bricks at a rate of 1,000 per hour.
Instead of a traditional mortar and rebar design, the machine uses construction adhesives to hold the bricks together and interlocking precision bricks that are 15 times larger than standard bricks. This system “will produce structurally sound wall to renderable quality at speeds never seen before”

Gravelly

lalababa wrote: »

Design a "house" that conforms to the miriad of building reg.s that can be factory built, easily transported and erected on site, at minimal cost and minimal lesser skiled labour.
Couldn't see a problem in new estates where every house looks the same anyway.
Might be Abit stigmatized for the great washed however in one off housing as jhonny and Mary soap would want a proper block and mortor house just like the shower up the road.

There are at least 2 companies in Ireland doing this already - one in Waterford, and one in, I think, Cavan.

Assetbacked

JimmyMW wrote: »

It all sounds very like the start of the downfall of the last boom, immigrants building housing to be purchased by landlords to rent back to the very immigrants employed to build them

For renters, it is already a crisis and seems like it can't get much worse. Given the influx of workers from abroad which has added to the demand for rental properties, a loss of jobs could require them to follow the jobs to the next multinational tax haven in Europe. This could help to reduce demand for those staying in the country resulting in lower rental prices.

It's impossible to predict how this bubble will burst but at least the murmurings are there that there is some form of bubble.

JimmyMW

zell12 wrote: »

Stop talking down the economy!

Assetbacked wrote: »

For renters, it is already a crisis and seems like it can't get much worse. Given the influx of workers from abroad which has added to the demand for rental properties, a loss of jobs could require them to follow the jobs to the next multinational tax haven in Europe. This could help to reduce demand for those staying in the country resulting in lower rental prices.

It's impossible to predict how this bubble will burst but at least the murmurings are there that there is some form of bubble.

Im far from predicting a burst or a bubble here, or trying to talk down the economy, in fact it would be in my personal interest to talk up the construction sector. However the point I was making was that we don't seam to be learning from the mistakes of the past, immigrants wont solve the housing crises, quite the opposite is likely to happen with immigrants putting more pressure on the rental sector, I think legislative change along with factory built homes are the more likely tools to help relieve the housing shortage.

listermint

godtabh wrote: »

Well yeah quality control was the issue. It failed BCAR inspections.

The whole point of prefab was to deliver affordable/quick/high quality solutions. It would appear you cant have all three.

It depends on the definition is of affordable tbh.

listermint

Mateo Prickly Typewriter wrote: »

Immigrant workers won't be able to build them quick enough (to house the immigrant workers, and/or non-workers),
instead get the Fastbrick Robotics Limited^ (ASX:FBR), it lays blocks x4 faster than humans and wont even want a cup of tea, or sleep, or daylight, or holidays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bW1vuCgEaA

^ The Hadrian X features a 30-meter boom capable of placing bricks at a rate of 1,000 per hour.
Instead of a traditional mortar and rebar design, the machine uses construction adhesives to hold the bricks together and interlocking precision bricks that are 15 times larger than standard bricks. This system “will produce structurally sound wall to renderable quality at speeds never seen before”

You are probably aware of this but this machine is not as efficient as Human block layers for residential housing.

Buildling long large walls or large scale blocks on a commercial premises yes.

But to say its beats conventional blockeys on residential is a lie.

4068ac1elhodqr

Robot builders are inevitable (cost savings) but perhaps still some time away from regular traditional housing estates.
Could still be deployed for the shells of apartment complexes, which are generally just very large detached multi-story buildings.

Prefab/modular will likely lead the way, before robo-automation and even 3DP nanotech.
Company in the North, like many others assembles prefabs in just 1 day, is building x40 in Spring '19.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/6m-northern-ireland-housing-project-is-absolutely-prefab-37256977.html

Perhaps the interm solution for non-stop single millennials on 12hrs days, take-aways and gyms is a cascade of these type of pods:
http://www.podtime.co.uk/podtime_standard_sleep_pod_side_entry.html

Gravelly

Mateo Prickly Typewriter wrote: »

Robot builders are inevitable (cost savings) but perhaps still some time away from regular traditional housing estates.
Could still be deployed for the shells of apartment complexes, which are generally just very large detached multi-story buildings.

Prefab/modular will likely lead the way, before robo-automation and even 3DP nanotech.
Company in the North, like many others assembles prefabs in just 1 day, is building x40 in Spring '19.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/6m-northern-ireland-housing-project-is-absolutely-prefab-37256977.html

Perhaps the interm solution for non-stop single millennials on 12hrs days, take-aways and gyms is a cascade of these type of pods:
http://www.podtime.co.uk/podtime_standard_sleep_pod_side_entry.html

Unlikely that on-site robotics will play a big part in house construction, as it is so much more cost effective to build offsite. There is one off-site company in the UK who currently have the capacity to build 2 turnkey housing units per day in one of their plants, which is completely automated. They are ramping that up to 5 units per day over the next 2 years.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Once we don't end up with something like these awful looking structures;

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2917183,-6.2852661,3a,75y,347.56h,84.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssFVvlhflTjcf3eermSXxSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Gravelly

Boone Disgusting Level wrote: »

Once we don't end up with something like these awful looking structures;

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2917183,-6.2852661,3a,75y,347.56h,84.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssFVvlhflTjcf3eermSXxSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I've seen the units built by the company I mentioned above, and they look exactly like any modern detached house.

Moonjet

This race to deliver fast track units will cause major problems in the future in my opinion. Robots laying blocks using glue to bind them? Wood frame houses in the Irish climate? Christ almighty. Even basic construction standards around safety are not being enforced in primary schools built in recent years. Where young children spend 6 hours a day. What hope do residential units have. I would be very cautious buying anything built in the last and next 5 years in this country.

4068ac1elhodqr

If you haven't got a full day to assemble you're new modular home,
these folks can stick it up in a just few hours (about the same amount of time it takes their data heavy website to load)
http://avrame.com/

A-frames are perhaps the most simple and sturdy simple base structure of all.

4068ac1elhodqr

Moonjet wrote: »

Robots laying blocks using glue to bind them?

(Interlocking blocks)

Moonjet wrote: »

Wood frame houses in the Irish climate? Christ almighty.

Ever spent a day sweating in Northern Canadian 'wooden house' when it's -35oC outside?

Gravelly

Mateo Prickly Typewriter wrote: »

If you haven't got a full day to assemble you're new modular home,
these folks can stick it up in a just few hours (about the same amount of time it takes their data heavy website to load)
http://avrame.com/

A-frames are perhaps the most simple and sturdy simple base structure of all.

The company above deliver the house to site already assembled. It is just bolted down onto pre-installed bolts, and the services connected. Apparently it takes 2-3 hours on average.

Gravelly

Moonjet wrote: »

Wood frame houses in the Irish climate? Christ almighty.

Around 30% of the houses built in Ireland over the last 10 years were timber frame.

Assetbacked

Mateo Prickly Typewriter wrote: »

If you haven't got a full day to assemble you're new modular home,
these folks can stick it up in a just few hours (about the same amount of time it takes their data heavy website to load)
http://avrame.com/

A-frames are perhaps the most simple and sturdy simple base structure of all.

Starting from 22k plus VAT (plus assembling costs I presume). That is incredible.

shivermetimber

Dubldom is another modular housing company I'm impressed with. Plenty of info on them online with owner reports, construction vids etc. A few factories in Russia, Czech and opening in France and US soon apparently. Plenty of folks living in the arse end of Russia are happy out in them. I contacted them a while ago about spec and they were quick to reply with lots of info, all looked workable to me. Of course, regs here would be a problem but a workable problem maybe.

There are lots of options out there now but of course, Ireland is stuck a few decades in the past when it comes to anything innovative, affordable and outside of the box.

Moonjet

Mateo Prickly Typewriter wrote: »

If you haven't got a full day to assemble you're new modular home,
these folks can stick it up in a just few hours (about the same amount of time it takes their data heavy website to load)
http://avrame.com/

A-frames are perhaps the most simple and sturdy simple base structure of all.

I just don't see the point in these, apart from a temporary measure to help ease the housing crisis.
They won't last in the long term and will need to be replaced.
Look at the Victorian red bricks built in Dublin 100 years ago, or even the corporation estates built in the 1960s. They are all still standing and being used as perfectly suitable housing units in 2018.

It's looking like in 2050 our population will be close to 7 million, putting an even greater demand on housing than today. Why not build units that will last 100+ years. It's typical Irish short term thinking.

JimmyMW

Assetbacked wrote: »

Starting from 22k plus VAT (plus assembling costs I presume). That is incredible.

Have a look at the optional extras section, "Roofing Material" and "Stairs" is quoted as optional extras, the figures quoted wont give a watertight shell + site prep, transportation and erection

Moonjet

Gravelly wrote: »

Around 30% of the houses built in Ireland over the last 10 years were timber frame.

Source for that?
If it's true, that's worrying as we don't know how these will fare after long term exposure to Irish weather. I've heard if they aren't carefully sealed from damp the whole primary structure of your house can rot. My house is made of bricks/mortar, and the only structural problems I've ever had were with the components made of timber (soffit/fascias and windows) which all eventually rotted away in the Irish weather and needed replacing. How would you manage that with the frame of the house, apart from knocking and rebuilding the entire house?

Gravelly

Moonjet wrote: »

I just don't see the point in these, apart from a temporary measure to help ease the housing crisis.
They won't last in the long term and will need to be replaced.
Look at the Victorian red bricks built in Dublin 100 years ago, or even the corporation estates built in the 1960s. They are all still standing and being used as perfectly suitable housing units in 2018.

It's looking like in 2050 our population will be close to 7 million, putting an even greater demand on housing than today. Why not build units that will last 100+ years.

Because that day is gone, at least in an urban context. When the population hits 7 million, they won't be building semi-D's in the suburbs to house them, they'll be levelling the houses they built during the boom and replacing them with high density highrise.

Mr. teddywinkles

There was some moany numpties on here moaning about the standards of house building during the boom when they were thrown up. now we're suggesting using anyone and anything to throw them up again and questionable building methods. Pure lark on here

Gravelly

Moonjet wrote: »

Source for that?
If it's true, that's worrying as we don't know how these will fare after long term exposure to Irish weather. I've heard if they aren't carefully sealed from damp the whole primary structure of your house can rot.

Loads of sources for it, just google it. Here's a couple to start you off:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/homeandinteriors/homehelp/building-a-timber-frame-house-versus-the-more-typical-concrete-block-method-413195.html

https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ie/&httpsredir=1&article=1066&context=beschreccon

No need to worry - the Swedes, Austrians, Germans, French, Canadians, Americans etc. have been building them in similar and worse conditions than ours for over 100 years.

listermint

Moonjet wrote: »

Source for that?
If it's true, that's worrying as we don't know how these will fare after long term exposure to Irish weather. I've heard if they aren't carefully sealed from damp the whole primary structure of your house can rot. My house is made of bricks/mortar, and the only structural problems I've ever had were with the components made of timber (soffit/fascias and windows) which all eventually rotted away in the Irish weather and needed replacing. How would you manage that with the frame of the house, apart from knocking and rebuilding the entire house?

Erm Plenty of countries with climates same as ours and with more extremes either end have most of their housing stock in timber.

Your talking nonsense now.

beauf

Moonjet wrote: »

I just don't see the point in these, apart from a temporary measure to help ease the housing crisis.
They won't last in the long term and will need to be replaced.
Look at the Victorian red bricks built in Dublin 100 years ago, or even the corporation estates built in the 1960s. They are all still standing and being used as perfectly suitable housing units in 2018.

It's looking like in 2050 our population will be close to 7 million, putting an even greater demand on housing than today. Why not build units that will last 100+ years. It's typical Irish short term thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefabs_in_the_United_Kingdom

It has been done before.

But last time it was built to a reasonable standard.

We can't even build bricks and mortar to a good standard theses days.
We can't even enforce standards.

Moonjet

Gravelly wrote: »

Loads of sources for it, just google it. Here's a couple to start you off:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/homeandinteriors/homehelp/building-a-timber-frame-house-versus-the-more-typical-concrete-block-method-413195.html

https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ie/&httpsredir=1&article=1066&context=beschreccon

No need to worry - the Swedes, Austrians, Germans, French, Canadians, Americans etc. have been building them in similar and worse conditions than ours for over 100 years.

They have, and all you have to do is look at the aftermath of a hurricane in any US town. All the houses are completely leveled to the ground. It's simply not as strong or fireproof/windproof as bricks and that's without even getting into woodworm/damp/dry rot issues.

listermint

Moonjet wrote: »

They have, and all you have to do is look at the aftermath of a hurricane in any US town. All the houses are completely leveled to the ground. It's simply not as strong or fireproof as bricks and that's without even getting into woodworm/damp/dry rot issues.

You conveniently sidestepped all of these


the Swedes, Austrians, Germans, French, Canadians,


Why ?

So you can spout more opinion without facts ?

Moonjet

listermint wrote: »

You conveniently sidestepped all of these


the Swedes, Austrians, Germans, French, Canadians,


Why ?

So you can spout more opinion without facts ?

You are the one omitting facts. You claim those countries have been using timber frame housing for 100 years. I want to see proof. What % of their overall housing is timber frame? Is it a mainstream construction method? How far does it date back and what's the status of those units now? Even if true, none of those countries has Ireland's unique climate.

Gravelly

Moonjet wrote: »

They have, and all you have to do is look at the aftermath of a hurricane in any US town. All the houses are completely leveled to the ground. It's simply not as strong or fireproof/windproof as bricks and that's without even getting into woodworm/damp/dry rot issues.

They've been building timber frame houses in Ireland for over 30 years now. There are tens of thousands of them from Kerry to Donegal. Can you show me a case of a single one that has been:

Levelled by a hurricane
Eaten by woodworm
Rotted away through damp or dry rot?

Gravelly

Moonjet wrote: »

You are the one omitting facts. You claim those countries have been using timber frame housing for 100 years. I want to see proof. What % of their overall housing is timber frame? Is it a mainstream construction method? How far does it date back and what's the status of those units now? Even if true, none of those countries has Ireland's unique climate.

Ah, here.

beauf

Moonjet wrote: »

You are the one omitting facts. You claim those countries have been using timber frame housing for 100 years. I want to see proof. What % of their overall housing is timber frame? Is it a mainstream construction method? How far does it date back and what's the status of those units now? Even if true, none of those countries has Ireland's unique climate.

Maybe wood might be better?

https://www.thejournal.ie/pyrite-mica-mayo-donegal-3277538-Mar2017/

beauf

There is this

https://www.timetravelturtle.com/horyuji-japan-oldest-wooden-building/

Gravelly

beauf wrote: »

There is this

https://www.timetravelturtle.com/horyuji-japan-oldest-wooden-building/

I'm sure the woodworm will get it any day now :rolleyes:

beauf

Then there this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution

Boone Disgusting Level

Boone Disgusting Level wrote: »

Once we don't end up with something like these awful looking structures;

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2917183,-6.2852661,3a,75y,347.56h,84.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssFVvlhflTjcf3eermSXxSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

What's the story with those? A 'fancy' design, or just a shipping container?


Never seen them before.

shivermetimber

Lol at all the timber nay saying. Sure look at cob or straw ffs. Beautiful, natural materials that are perfect to build with yet massively restricted and looked down upon here for no reason other than stubbornness.

lalababa

Gravelly wrote: »

The company above deliver the house to site already assembled. It is just bolted down onto pre-installed bolts, and the services connected. Apparently it takes 2-3 hours on average.

Wow! That's awesome.

Graces7

Moonjet wrote: »

They have, and all you have to do is look at the aftermath of a hurricane in any US town. All the houses are completely leveled to the ground. It's simply not as strong or fireproof/windproof as bricks and that's without even getting into woodworm/damp/dry rot issues.

That is for a reason. The levelling I mean. Far safer than brick and stone when a hurricane hits.

Graces7

shivermetimber wrote: »

Dubldom is another modular housing company I'm impressed with. Plenty of info on them online with owner reports, construction vids etc. A few factories in Russia, Czech and opening in France and US soon apparently. Plenty of folks living in the arse end of Russia are happy out in them. I contacted them a while ago about spec and they were quick to reply with lots of info, all looked workable to me. Of course, regs here would be a problem but a workable problem maybe.

There are lots of options out there now but of course, Ireland is stuck a few decades in the past when it comes to anything innovative, affordable and outside of the box.

This is mine

https://www.roadmaster.ie/demountable-dwelling/

Came ready made on a truck.

shivermetimber

Graces7 wrote: »

This is mine

https://www.roadmaster.ie/demountable-dwelling/

Came ready made on a truck.

Perfect for plenty of people once the construction and insulation is up to scratch. Did you buy yourself or is a council home?

Graces7

shivermetimber wrote: »

Perfect for plenty of people once the construction and insulation is up to scratch. Did you buy yourself or is a council home?

council. I came to the end of being able to find a rental and the offer of this saved me from literally living in my car.

They brought it over ( offshore island) for a very old man whose 150 year old cottage was beyond safe so he could see his days out here. He died 6 years ago and it has lain empty since.

Perfect for my needs except I need one more room for my crafting.

It came intact and whole, and the insulation is incredible. Any sun on the windows and no need of heating .. the downside was in The Scorch as it works one way only

Clean and totally damp free and light and airy. Even closed up for years the vents kept it fresh.

As you say, perfect for many in need. I have seen very few around.