Most suitable advisory sign for a FCP

peposhi

Hi, lads (and gals)

My I get your opinion on what would be the best advisory sign to put up at a fast charger to ensure people stop taking a piss:

A black L40 was left sitting at Junction14 Mayfield left fast charging bay for at least 7 hours today...

You can imagine the amount of cars that were denied access to charging in that busy spot...

If you have seen or have some pictures, do post them, please.

DrPhilG

peposhi wrote: »

Hi, lads (and gals)

My I get your opinion on what would be the best advisory sign to put up at a fast charger to ensure people stop taking a piss:

A black L40 was left sitting at Junction14 Mayfield left fast charging bay for at least 7 hours today...

You can imagine the amount of cars that were denied access to charging in that busy spot...

If you have seen or have some pictures, do post them, please.

There is one stuck on a few fast chargers in the North, I'll try to dig up a shot.

Gumbo

H

peposhi wrote: »

Hi, lads (and gals)

My I get your opinion on what would be the best advisory sign to put up at a fast charger to ensure people stop taking a piss:

A black L40 was left sitting at Junction14 Mayfield left fast charging bay for at least 7 hours today...

You can imagine the amount of cars that were denied access to charging in that busy spot...

If you have seen or have some pictures, do post them, please.

That’s unbelievable. Should it have not disconnected once fully charged?

n97 mini

kceire wrote: »

H

That’s unbelievable. Should it have not disconnected once fully charged?

It was posted in the IEVOA fb group... It was abandoned, not plugged in, in a parking spot in front of the FCP.

Graniteville

Max charge time 30min.
Vehicles parked in excess of one hour at this charge point will be clamped.
Release fee €150

peposhi

kceire wrote: »

H

That’s unbelievable. Should it have not disconnected once fully charged?

Car was fully charged and owner nowhere to be seen. Another Leaf got it disconnected and plugged to charge. After waiting for a good 40min. The lady was too worried to unplug the car even though the charge session was over.

peposhi

n97 mini wrote: »

It was posted in the IEVOA fb group... It was abandoned, not plugged in, in a parking spot in front of the FCP.

Car was charging and completed the charge. Another Leaf disconnected it later on and closed the lid.

Mancomb Seepgood

It's difficult to understand, there is nowhere within walking distance of that place. The owner must have been picked up and dropped off, unless they spent 7 hours in Insomnia.

unkel

peposhi wrote: »

A black L40 was left sitting at Junction14 Mayfield left fast charging bay for at least 7 hours today...

Surely it takes "only" about 3 hours to fast charge a Leaf 40 from 0%-100% with the last 5% taking about an hour?

DrPhilG

This.

peposhi

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

It's difficult to understand, there is nowhere within walking distance of that place. The owner must have been picked up and dropped off, unless they spent 7 hours in Insomnia.

Tomorrow I will know the exact amount of time the car was abandoned. Iexpect roughly 9 hours or more

jprboy

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

It's difficult to understand, there is nowhere within walking distance of that place. The owner must have been picked up and dropped off, unless they spent 7 hours in Insomnia.

Nah, Amnesia more likely :pac:

peposhi

The car was there for nearly 11hours...

gunnerfitzy

Respectfully, it's no individual's place to put signs place with what they feel should be the rules/guidelines/etiquette at any charge point. It is the responsibility of eCars and the land-owner/manager to have proper rules, systems and enforcement in place. Pressure should be brought to bear on those with proper authority to take action.

blackbox

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

It's difficult to understand, there is nowhere within walking distance of that place. The owner must have been picked up and dropped off, unless they spent 7 hours in Insomnia.

Maybe the car owner works there.

peposhi

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

Respectfully, it's no individual's place to put signs place with what they feel should be the rules/guidelines/etiquette at any charge point. It is the responsibility of eCars and the land-owner/manager to have proper rules, systems and enforcement in place. Pressure should be brought to bear on those with proper authority to take action.

In that respect the landlwoner/manager will hopefully have a look at a proposed sign to avoid wasting time to deal with the mentioned above situation.
ESB don’t give a penny about it.
It’s the company that gets all the hassle due to inconsiderate usage of equipment installed on the company’s property by a third party.

McGiver

Well, similar happened to me yesterday in Galway, which essentially has only one FCP in the city centre. I was at 10% with my L24 and desperately needed a quick top up (20 mins max), but there was a black 181-G L40 charging, 3rd light flashing so he was at 70%, owner nowhere, no note with phone number, nothing. This SOC means 150kms range at least compared to mine 10kms. I'd waited for 40 minutes, nothing, so I had to leave. I'd say he must have hogged the charger for 1.5, possibly 2 hours.

I'm seriously getting allergic to these black L40s, I see everywhere, as they move to the "mainstream" this year with strong sales, you can expect a lot of ignorant and/or arrogant owners. Bring on the charges for FCPs, really looking forward.

peposhi

blackbox wrote: »

Maybe the car owner works there.

Certainly not
Especially with the L reg

DrPhilG

The network is getting so busy these days even without hogging.

I drove around 3 standard chargers in Derry on Saturday. The Diamond was in use by a L40, Bishop Street had one side not working other side in use by a L24. Strand Road had a L24 and a BMW PHEV. Victoria Car park is dead but had a Tesla parked at it.

I dropped my wife to an appointment and came back to town about an hour later. Strand Road had the same 2 cars. Diamond now had a L24/L30 charging. Bishop Street had the same L24. Eventually I went to the cinema later in the evening and Strand Road SCP had a L40 there but I got into the other side.

Even a year ago you would be lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view) to see 1 EV in town on a Saturday. Last Saturday I saw 7 including my own.

The fast charger in Derry also suffers from hogging. There is a local Zoe owner who regularly parks up (often diagonally across both spaces), plugs in and abandons his car for 3+ hours. There have also been a few different spells of Outlander owners doing the same thing.

Last week I charged at the FCP and we had all 3 plugs in use. Zoe was charging on fast AC, Outlander was abandoned and finished charging on Chademo and I got on the CCS with some creative parking.



The huge increase in EVs on the road needs to be accompanied by some common sense and manners in regards to charging. It's true that the ESB and dealers should be starting this etiquette teaching at the point of purchase but they don't. Probably because it could be seen as a negative so they don't want to put people off.

_dof_

Would it be enough to have a sign with "40 Minutes Max" and "No PHEVs" in a big font?

It could very well be that some of the offenders don't have a clue of the etiquette or that they're doing anything wrong.
They might not even understand the difference between FCPs and SCPs.

Bring on the charging for charging though, the sooner the better.

gunnerfitzy

peposhi wrote: »

In that respect the landlwoner/manager will hopefully have a look at a proposed sign to avoid wasting time to deal with the mentioned above situation.
ESB don’t give a penny about it.
It’s the company that gets all the hassle due to inconsiderate usage of equipment installed on the company’s property by a third party.

Whomever the landowner/tenant is, I imagine they are perfectly entitled to place a simple time-limit on particular vehicle spaces.

Max 1 hour at a fast charger space, 4 hours at standard charger space for example and only while actively charging. They are not controlling the charge points (eCars responsibility) but the spaces.

This should be driven (no pun intended) by eCars with the approval of the landowner/tenant but as you say they simply do not care.

gunnerfitzy

_dof_ wrote: »

Would it be enough to have a sign with "40 Minutes Max" and "No PHEVs" in a big font?

It could very well be that some of the offenders don't have a clue of the etiquette or that they're doing anything wrong.
They might not even understand the difference between FCPs and SCPs.

Bring on the charging for charging though, the sooner the better.

There is no restriction on PHEVs using public charge points. Any other restrictions you want to make up yourself?

liamog

It's relatively simple, as soon as people have to start paying to charge their car, people will stop abandoning them.

The payment structure will affect how people use the chargers.
My personal wish is for people to charge the car with what they need whilst it makes sense to do so and move on quickly.

A per kWh fee often seems to be the most fair, but will not influence the user to move the car.
A per kWh fee with switch to per minute after the charge is complete - still leads to charger underuse, i.e. Ioniq plugged in to FastAC on Rapid for 4 hours.
A fixed fee i.e. €8 per charge leads to people staying as long as possible to get their moneys worth.
A per minute fee can be seen as unfair to slower charging cars as they end up paying more per kWh but will lead to drivers finishing their charge as quickly as they can.

I think the per minute fee is the right current approach, if you want to pay 25c/min to stay connected at a 50kW rapid for 4 hours then by all means pay for that privalege.
Pay €1 per hour to charge at a standard charger (SCP) and take as much energy as you like.

deadduck

I think I read Tesla rolled out a system where you could charge for free, but once your car was either full or over a threshold, you got a notification to go move your car to free up the charger. If you didn’t, then a penalty per minute kicked in until the car was moved.

Could eCars not do something similar? So you keep the free charging to continue it as an incentive to encourage people to keep moving to EVs, but also bring in the penalties to ensure they’re considerate of other users also

gunnerfitzy

liamog wrote: »

It's relatively simple, as soon as people have to start paying to charge their car, people will stop abandoning them.

The payment structure will affect how people use the chargers.
My personal wish is for people to charge the car with what they need whilst it makes sense to do so and move on quickly.

A per kWh fee often seems to be the most fair, but will not influence the user to move the car.
A per kWh fee with switch to per minute after the charge is complete - still leads to charger underuse, i.e. Ioniq plugged in to FastAC on Rapid for 4 hours.
A fixed fee i.e. €8 per charge leads to people staying as long as possible to get their moneys worth.
A per minute fee can be seen as unfair to slower charging cars as they end up paying more per kWh but will lead to drivers finishing their charge as quickly as they can.

I think the per minute fee is the right current approach, if you want to pay 25c/min to stay connected at a 50kW rapid for 4 hours then by all means pay for that privalege.
Pay €1 per hour to charge at a standard charger (SCP) and take as much energy as you like.

Charging fees will sort a lot of this ultra-selfishness out.

IMHO per kWh fee with significant overstay penalties kicking-in 10 minutes after the charge ends is the fairest to all.

gunnerfitzy

deadduck wrote: »

I think I read Tesla rolled out a system where you could charge for free, but once your car was either full or over a threshold, you got a notification to go move your car to free up the charger. If you didn’t, then a penalty per minute kicked in until the car was moved.

Could eCars not do something similar? So you keep the free charging to continue it as an incentive to encourage people to keep moving to EVs, but also bring in the penalties to ensure they’re considerate of other users also

Free charging from public charge points should not be a necessary incentive to anyone. If you are moving from ICE to EV then you should be saving around 70/80% on your fuel bill charging from home on the charge point the taxpayer has, in many cases, completely paid for. If paying that approx €10 a week to fuel your vehicle at home is the sole factor you decided not to go EV then you are a very, very sad individual.

(Not you personally, generally speaking )

_dof_

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

There is no restriction on PHEVs using public charge points. Any other restrictions you want to make up yourself?

Yeah, maybe "No Locals". There's no restrictions on anyone using the FCPs, including the overstayers. So we're discussing signs that could lead to an increase in availability to those who need access to the FCP.

You used the word yourself. Selfishness.
We would like to think people would be considerate, and only take what they need from an FCP to continue their journey.

But, the evidence is that people are either inconsiderate or ignorant of the effect of their behaviour.

So, people in PHEVs and locals have no need to use an FCP at all. So they shouldn't use them if somebody else needs them.

I have no problem with a PHEV or local using an FCP as long as they disconnect as soon as another person who needs the FCP shows up.

Of course, it's all a moot point anyway, there will be no signs erected, and we'll suffer increasingly until charging for charging is introduced.

gunnerfitzy

_dof_ wrote: »

Yeah, maybe "No Locals". There's no restrictions on anyone using the FCPs, including the overstayers. So we're discussing signs that could lead to an increase in availability to those who need access to the FCP.

You used the word yourself. Selfishness.
We would like to think people would be considerate, and only take what they need from an FCP to continue their journey.

But, the evidence is that people are either inconsiderate or ignorant of the effect of their behaviour.

So, people in PHEVs and locals have no need to use an FCP at all. So they shouldn't use them if somebody else needs them.

I have no problem with a PHEV or local using an FCP as long as they disconnect as soon as another person who needs the FCP shows up.

Of course, it's all a moot point anyway, there will be no signs erected, and we'll suffer increasingly until charging for charging is introduced.

I would agree with the vast majority of what you stated. However, use of a public charge point is not dictated by need but on a first-come basis, like getting on a bus.

Understanding of course should mean that if someone has an urgent need for a charge then a decent human-being would let them on. But because there is no financial penalty for hogging a charger at the moment and the charge is free many users just don't care.

Roll on the fees.

_dof_

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

I would agree with the vast majority of what you stated. However, use of a public charge point is not dictated by need but on a first-come basis, like getting on a bus.

To use the bus analogy, I'd say it should be seen as more like access to a seat on the bus. Everyone has access to a seat if demand is low and there are free seats, but there are signs to say that you must give up the seat if an elderly or disabled person needs it. Similarly, PHEVs and feeloading locals can use the FCPs as much as they like as long as they give it up when a BEV shows up that needs access to the charger.

Understanding of course should mean that if someone has an urgent need for a charge then a decent human-being would let them on. But because there is no financial penalty for hogging a charger at the moment and the charge is free many users just don't care.

But we don't know if they overstay because they don't care, or because they're not aware that it's unacceptable, and the consequences for the other BEV drivers. So if the signs were erected which clearly stated <40 mins for example, and they ignored that, then it's probably selfishness instead of ignorance, but maybe it would be enough to inform people and they wouldn't overstay any longer.

Roll on the fees.

Yep, and it definitely shouldn't be a flat fee for a charge, since that encourages staying longer than necessary. Charging per kWh with an additional per minute fee if the charging rate is <20kWh should do it I think.

liamog

_dof_ wrote: »

Yep, and it definitely shouldn't be a flat fee for a charge, since that encourages staying longer than necessary. Charging per kWh with an additional per minute fee if the charging rate is <20kWh should do it I think.

Basically something along the lines of it's x per kWh with a minimum charge of y per minute


With regards to Tesla using an overstay charge, that was partially possible because all the cars that use Superchargers have a known charging profile.


As a I referenced earlier, an Ioniq plugging into the FCP and using the FastAC charger for 4 hours is currently not doing anything wrong, your minimum minute charge would solve for that though.

Graniteville

Here's the best sign

0-40min = free

40-60min= €10

€10 per hour or part thereof thereafter


€110 fee would wake most ignorant drivers

_dof_

Graniteville wrote: »

Here's the best sign

0-40min = free

40-60min= €10

€10 per hour or part thereof thereafter


€110 fee would wake most ignorant drivers

No, because that wouldn't get rid of the freeloading locals or the PHEV drivers. It would just mean that they'd stay 40 minutes, even with a BEV driver waiting for the charge that the need to get to their destination.

It would also mean that if they drifted into the 41st minute, they'd hang around blocking the charger for 20 more minutes, even though their car is at >90%, and charging at something like 5kW, because they've already paid the tenner.

unkel

peposhi wrote: »

Hi, lads (and gals)

My I get your opinion on what would be the best advisory sign to put up at a fast charger to ensure people stop taking a piss:

A black L40 was left sitting at Junction14 Mayfield left fast charging bay for at least 7 hours today...

You can imagine the amount of cars that were denied access to charging in that busy spot...

If you have seen or have some pictures, do post them, please.

What was the reg, peposhi?

peposhi

unkel wrote: »

What was the reg, peposhi?

Limerick. Other drivers who were there posted pics on FB, both EV pages

KAGY

Went to post on the name and shame post, but it 404'd so probably taken down.
Posting regs on boards will do nothing except perhaps establish a pattern of repeat offenders. What are the chances of the driver setting that post?

A better option is to photograph the car, and print it out with a statement like " this car was observed hogging the charge point causing massive delays to other drivers who rely on it for long journeys "

Stick this to the charge point

Gumbo

KAGY wrote: »

A better option is to photograph the car, and print it out with a statement like " this car was observed hogging the charge point causing massive delays to other drivers who rely on it for long journeys "

Stick this to the charge point

Best option yet

ELM327

KAGY wrote: »

Went to post on the name and shame post, but it 404'd so probably taken down.
Posting regs on boards will do nothing except perhaps establish a pattern of repeat offenders. What are the chances of the driver setting that post?

A better option is to photograph the car, and print it out with a statement like " this car was observed hogging the charge point causing massive delays to other drivers who rely on it for long journeys "

Stick this to the charge point

This is a GREAT idea.

Silent Running

The Waterford rapid is in a petrol station. The station owner has had issues with his premises being abused (EV speeding through the forecourt) and he reckons that there are drivers abusing the charger, staying on it for hours.

He's quoted as saying he'll put a 40 minute cap on charging. I'm not sure how he proposes to enforce this if a driver scarpers after plugging in. Presumably he can do this (?), and I would support his actions as chargers are a scarce resource to be shared fairly. Maybe more site owners should follow his lead.

ELM327

40 minutes is plenty and I fully support this.
Should be less really.

liamog

Silent Running wrote: »

The Waterford rapid is in a petrol station. The station owner has had issues with his premises being abused (EV speeding through the forecourt) and he reckons that there are drivers abusing the charger, staying on it for hours.

That's the one where the owner rather helpfully installed a picnic table in one of the two spaces for the charger. I'm guessing the speeding through the forecourt is just someone driving at a normal speed to the charger.

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

That's the one where the owner rather helpfully installed a picnic table in one of the two spaces for the charger. I'm guessing the speeding through the forecourt is just someone driving at a normal speed to the charger.

The picnic table is long since gone. It was there when the demand for charging was low. At worst it was a misguided attempt to be nice, and give EV drivers a place to sit outside the car while they charged.

The access to the charger, round the back, is through an area where there are cars and vans parked and people coming and going to the shop. Anyone going much over walking pace through there could be considered a dick.

I've spoken to the guy and he doesn't come across as a crank or in any way anti EV. He said he was pissed off with a Tesla driver hogging the charger "for hours" while regular customers are trying to get a charge. Seems fair enough to me.

DrPhilG

KAGY wrote: »

A better option is to photograph the car, and print it out with a statement like " this car was observed hogging the charge point causing massive delays to other drivers who rely on it for long journeys "

Stick this to the charge point

Lol, I can neither confirm nor deny that I'm going to do just that at a certain fast charger.

squishey

peposhi wrote: »

Limerick. Other drivers who were there posted pics on FB, both EV pages

This is the same one I posted about in the Ioniq thread : 182L1318

Gave up waiting after 2 hours and limped to Kildare slow charger. Got enough to get me to Naas fcp and topped up there.

peposhi

squishey wrote: »

This is the same one I posted about in the Ioniq thread : 182L1318

Gave up waiting after 2 hours and limped to Kildare slow charger. Got enough to get me to Naas fcp and topped up there.

You had to wait 2 hours? That must have been painful!
There’s a slow charger at Monasterevin Train station if you are ever stuck.

Del2005

KAGY wrote: »

A better option is to photograph the car, and print it out with a statement like " this car was observed hogging the charge point causing massive delays to other drivers who rely on it for long journeys "

Stick this to the charge point

You will be breaking the law doing that. GDPR means that you can't use people's personal details without a valid reason and not doing what you want at a charger isn't a valid reason.

Silent Running

Del2005 wrote: »

You will be breaking the law doing that. GDPR means that you can't use people's personal details without a valid reason and not doing what you want at a charger isn't a valid reason.

GDPR means that you can't use a picture of a car in a public place? That's a new one on me.

Calahonda52

Del2005 wrote: »

You will be breaking the law doing that. GDPR means that you can't use people's personal details without a valid reason and not doing what you want at a charger isn't a valid reason.

The reg of a car are not personal details.

If you are going to ride the GDPR stallion here you need to quote the exact legislation.
In my experience, many lazy folk are using it as a reason to not do stuff and folk are letting them away with it: so let's have the detail here please.

ELM327

Car Reg is not PII as it cannot be used solely to identify someone, and hence is not affected by GDPR.

NEXT

unkel

squishey wrote: »

Got enough to get me to Naas fcp and topped up there.

You're lucky you were able to fast charge there. I try avoid that one like the plague - it's so far off the beaten track and seems always taken when you need it (often by an Audi PHEV :rolleyes:)

Gumbo

Del2005 wrote: »

You will be breaking the law doing that. GDPR means that you can't use people's personal details without a valid reason and not doing what you want at a charger isn't a valid reason.

Umm, not sure about this.

unkel

Nah, it's nonsense. Showing a pic of a license that is also in plain view on the public road has nothing to do with GDPR. Now if you were to post the owners name and address (name & shame - cough, cough), that would be a different matter