The Bomber

Sweet.Science

All the marbles on the line Saturday night

How do we see it going ?

walshb

Sweet.Science wrote: »

All the marbles on the line Saturday night

How do we see it going ?

I think if Usyk's chin is solid, he will have too much momentum and volume for Bellew. He will stop Bellew circa rd 9

I do give Bellew a decent puncher's chance here

At least Bellew will try his heart out and go for the kill. Can't wait for this fight.

You know, sometimes it doesn't always take a monster KO shot to take someone out. Bellew can punch, knows how to punch and has enough pop to at least get respect and hurt Usyk. Can he land 1-2 shots that could get a KO? It's very possible.

Morrison J

Jonny Nelson saying Bellew is a better technical fighter than Usyk is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard.

Bar a lucky punch Bellew hasn't a prayer.

Late stoppage or Usyk points is all I can see

normanoffside

Morrison J wrote: »

Jonny Nelson saying Bellew is a better technical fighter than Usyk is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard.

Where did you see/hear that?
It's not the parody Johnny nelson twitter account?

https://twitter.com/CompanyJohnny/status/1059544879540379648

walshb

Johnny mentioned this several weeks back on the night that Usyk and Bellew came face to face in the ring.

Morrison J

normanoffside wrote: »

Where did you see/hear that?
It's not the parody Johnny nelson twitter account?

https://twitter.com/CompanyJohnny/status/1059544879540379648

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVLtqvLTAE&feature=youtu.be&a=

normanoffside

Morrison J wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVLtqvLTAE&feature=youtu.be&a=

Haha, maybe that twitter account is actually real

Bluezar

I think Usyk is an absolute class act that should have too much for Bellew but I am not backing against Bellew anymore

Does anyone know any pubs in Swords that show Boxing? Just moved in there and I can't order Sky Sports Box Office through Eir (very annoying) and don't want to have a stream dropping. Would prefer to pay for it or watch it somewhere with commentary?

PLOPS

Bellew has a punchers chance, I didn't give him a chance in his last 4 fights and he got the Knockout, I know Haye was a shadow of himself but Bellew still won.

Usyk has great movement, decent power, and is much fresher. Bellew is on the home straight now, he's made a few quid from his Haye PPVs so i'd say he has one foot out the door. Unless Tony lands something big similar to the Makubu fight, he hasnt a hope. He still struggled with Haye and he was on one leg in the first fight and never looked right in the second.

Wouldn't begrudge Bellew making a few quid either, up till the Haye fight he made very little i'd say. Not enough to retire anyway.

walshb

PLOPS wrote: »

Bellew has a punchers chance, I didn't give him a chance in his last 4 fights and he got the Knockout, I know Haye was a shadow of himself but Bellew still won.

Usyk has great movement, decent power, and is much fresher. Bellew is on the home straight now, he's made a few quid from his Haye PPVs so i'd say he has one foot out the door. Unless Haye lands something big similar to the Makubu fight, he hasnt a hope. He still struggled with Haye and he was on one leg in the first fight and never looked right in the second.

Wouldn't begrudge Bellew making a few quid either, up till the Haye fight he made very little i'd say. Not enough to retire anyway.

He still hit and hurt Haye to the point where Haye was knocked down and very wobbly. Haye was circa 220 for that fight. Big man with a fairly decent beard.

Usyk will be hit, that is for sure. How clean and hard and how he takes/reacts it are the questions that could decide this fight.

A Shaved Duck?

Uysk by Ko/tko at evs is the bet of the century...

Bellew doesnt stand a chance against him and the last 2 fights have been a farce.

PLOPS

walshb wrote: »

He still hit and hurt Haye to the point where Haye was knocked down and very wobbly. Haye was circa 220 for that fight. Big man with a fairly decent beard.

Usyk will be hit, that is for sure. How clean and hard and how he takes/reacts it are the questions that could decide this fight.

In the second fight with Haye he definitely did a fairly convincing job on him, but it was definitely an injured Haye. Haye was still dangerous though and Bellew finished the job well. Usyk is very slick though, rides the punches well.

walshb

PLOPS wrote: »

In the second fight with Haye he definitely did a fairly convincing job on him, but it was definitely an injured Haye. Haye was still dangerous though and Bellew finished the job well. Usyk is very slick though, rides the punches well.

Haye may have been injured, but that had nothing to do with his chin getting cracked/hurt......

Bellew can punch, knows how to punch, is not in any way fearful to let the hands go, and can absolutely finish a man when that man is hurt.....all it takes is split seconds in the fight game

Big live underdog for me...

Morrison J

pac_man wrote: »

Johnny said, "Technically he's actually better than Usyk". I'm no Sherlock Holmes but I know when someone is pissing on my leg and tell me it's raining. The word actually is often a dead giveaway for when people use deception.
Didn't he say someone stupid like Mcgregor has a chance against Mayweather?

Said McGregor was a live underdog. Also picked Brook to KO GGG early, Burns to beat Crawford and loads of other shockers over the years. He's just a stooge for Sky to sell their PPV's really. I think it's gone so far that he couldn't genuinely be that consistently clueless.

megadodge

Strangely enough (as I'm not particularly fond of Bellew), I don't think Nelson's 'technical' comment is as ridiculous as it sounds.

I've long claimed that Bellew is a much better boxer than given credit for and up until recent times I thought he wasn't as good a puncher as he himself thought. In fairness, he's hitting much harder nowadays, but his punching technique and countering ability are of a very high quality and his defense is more than adequate. People need to forget about the weight-weakened light heavy Bellew.

Usyk has the best footwork, movement and balance I've seen in a man his size since Ali. He is very strong physically and superbly conditioned. His high guard and footwork make him a tough target, but he's no defensive wizard. Look at the Breidis fight if you don't believe me. However, outside of an excellent jab, his punching technique is 'actually' quite ordinary. He often cuffs with his punches and considering his balance and strength if he had very good technique he would be punching much harder than he does. His right hook is middling, he doesn't hook to the body and almost never uses uppercuts. These are all 'technical' points that Usyk doesn't impress me with.

Of course, that doesn't make him a bad fighter or mean that I think Bellew will win (I don't), but he'll beat Bellew with movement and a high workrate not being better technically.

walshb

I also don’t think Nelson’s comment about technique to be absurd, but decided, for a change to let some other schmuk (no offense, mega) take the lead.

There’s a lot to technique than what some people think. Mega has nailed them above..

Morrison J

A guy who was losing rounds to the one legged corpse of David Haye is a better technical fighter than Usyk?? Come on.

Bellew is what I'd call fundamentally sound. Does the basic things really well and is a good all rounder who can punch a bit.

Movement and footwork are all part of ones technical ability as a boxer. I feel like ye are just thinking about pure punch technique/delivery really. Usyk's ability to fluidly counter punch, fight comfortably on the inside as well as the outside, use footwork, feints and angles etc etc etc is on a different planet to Bellew's. I really can't see an arguement for the opposite.

Too Tough To Die

Bellew is a fraud. It will be as one sided a fight as you're ever likely to see. Easiest fight Usyk's had in a long time and a great chance to put on a show before moving up in weight.

Boooourns

megadodge wrote: »

Strangely enough (as I'm not particularly fond of Bellew), I don't think Nelson's 'technical' comment is as ridiculous as it sounds.

I've long claimed that Bellew is a much better boxer than given credit for and up until recent times I thought he wasn't as good a puncher as he himself thought. In fairness, he's hitting much harder nowadays, but his punching technique and countering ability are of a very high quality and his defense is more than adequate. People need to forget about the weight-weakened light heavy Bellew.

Usyk has the best footwork, movement and balance I've seen in a man his size since Ali. He is very strong physically and superbly conditioned. His high guard and footwork make him a tough target, but he's no defensive wizard. Look at the Breidis fight if you don't believe me. However, outside of an excellent jab, his punching technique is 'actually' quite ordinary. He often cuffs with his punches and considering his balance and strength if he had very good technique he would be punching much harder than he does. His right hook is middling, he doesn't hook to the body and almost never uses uppercuts. These are all 'technical' points that Usyk doesn't impress me with.

Of course, that doesn't make him a bad fighter or mean that I think Bellew will win (I don't), but he'll beat Bellew with movement and a high workrate not being better technically.

Very well put, watching him in the Super series he never looked like stopping any of his opponents. He's really nice boxer, good movement (where he actually mimics Loma), solid as a rock with his chin but as far as power goes he doesn't impress me. He could do it on volume of punches but i can't see him badly hurting Bellew out of the blue. He'll win this very wide on the cards but in fairness to Bellew he'll give this a right go but Bellew is not as good as Brieidis who can also bang.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

A guy who was losing rounds to the one legged corpse of David Haye is a better technical fighter than Usyk?? Come on.

Bellew is what I'd call fundamentally sound. Does the basic things really well and is a good all rounder who can punch a bit.

Movement and footwork are all part of ones technical ability as a boxer. I feel like ye are just thinking about pure punch technique/delivery really. Usyk's ability to fluidly counter punch, fight comfortably on the inside as well as the outside, use footwork, feints and angles etc etc etc is on a different planet to Bellew's. I really can't see an arguement for the opposite.

Losing rds has nothing to do with it. Technically he is very sound. Very natural and very fluid....looks relaxed and composed when in offensive mode. Throws correct and clean and impacting shots. Good feet and balance when throwing. Also has a wide variety of shots. On defenses he has good upper body movement and movement from the waist. Is naturally able to slip and ride shots and duck and dive....Technically his D is every bit as good if not better than Usyk's.

Usyk and Bellew are simply different types fighters, so comparing them technically is not all that easy. Nelson's comments are not silly or far off any mark.

yourdeadwright

I really dislike Bellew,
Some reason he has tried to reinvent himself as a clever bloke but just talks nonsense and contradicts himself nearly every time he speaks,

He is a perfect example of a Hearn/sky job ,

He ain't half the boxer he thinks he is ,
Beating Haye about 8 years past his best and on one leg each time is not big deal,

Can't remember who it was but in the first round of the second fight one of the panel mentioned Haye had been to a specialist that Wednesday about his ankle , they other two went silent and it was never mentioned again ,

Word is Haye was 100% going into it and said nothing ,He needed the cash and he couldn't com clean after or blame injury again as it would sour him to the public paying for that crap, Remember he want to be a promoter so has to keep his nose clean ,

It showed him in the locker pre fight warming up doing ground ladders and my Nan would have done it quicker he stopped when he noticed the camera's ,

Usyk is class I think he blows Bellew away ,

If Bellew wins then I have him all wrong

Too Tough To Die

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I really dislike Bellew,
Some reason he has tried to reinvent himself as a clever bloke but just talks nonsense and contradicts himself nearly every time he speaks,

He is a perfect example of a Hearn/sky job ,

He ain't half the boxer he thinks he is ,
Beating Haye about 8 years past his best and on one leg each time is not big deal,

Can't remember who it was but in the first round of the second fight one of the panel mentioned Haye had been to a specialist that Wednesday about his ankle , they other two went silent and it was never mentioned again ,

Word is Haye was 100% going into it and said nothing ,He needed the cash and he couldn't com clean after or blame injury again as it would sour him to the public paying for that crap, Remember he want to be a promoter so has to keep his nose clean ,

It showed him in the locker pre fight warming up doing ground ladders and my Nan would have done it quicker he stopped when he noticed the camera's ,

Usyk is class I think he blows Bellew away ,

If Bellew wins then I have him all wrong

Bellew won't win a round. There's more than one level separating these two.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Technically he is very sound. Very natural and very fluid....looks relaxed and composed when in offensive mode. Throws correct and clean and impacting shots. Good feet and balance when throwing. Also has a wide variety of shots. On defenses he has good upper body movement and movement from the waist. Is naturally able to slip and ride shots and duck and dive.

You're just listing basic boxing fundamentals there. I don't disagree that Bellew is fundamentally a good technical boxer. He's just at a far far more basic level than Usyk.

walshb wrote: »

Technically his D is every bit as good if not better than Usyk's.

No it's not. It's nowhere near.

You think Gassiev wouldn't be able to lay a glove on Bellew for 12 rounds either?

You think Makabu would drop Usyk too?

There's a reason we've never seen Usyk wobbled or dropped against super heavies in the WSB or in 15 pro fights at cruiser. He's a great defensive fighter.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

You're just listing basic boxing fundamentals there. I don't disagree that Bellew is fundamentally a good technical boxer. He's just at a far far more basic level than Usyk.



No it's not. It's nowhere near.

You think Gassiev wouldn't be able to lay a glove on Bellew for 12 rounds either?

You think Makabu would drop Usyk too?

There's a reason we've never seen Usyk wobbled or dropped against super heavies in the WSB or in 15 pro fights at cruiser. He's a great defensive fighter.

If Bellew decided to adopt that high guard tactic I am sure he could....It's not his style. That is D most basic and easy defensive styles there is. High guard and hope that shots don't sneak through to really hurt you.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

If Bellew decided to adopt that high guard tactic I am sure he could....It's not his style. That is D most basic and easy defensive styles there is. High guard and hope that shots don't sneak through to really hurt you.

Is that how you would describe Usyk defensively? "High guard and hope that shots don't sneak through to really hurt you?" You're making him sound like he's Scott Quigg or something. There must be another Oleksander Usyk out there because this isn't the one I'm watching. The Usyk I've seen couldn't be any further from being described as basic.

I think Bellew slipping a few of the most telegraphed punches I've ever seen in a boxing ring from a shot one legged Haye has people thinking he's some high level defensive fighter. That's just not the case. Watch him get dropped by Makabu, watch him get wobbled big time against Brudov. He can be hit and hurt.

yourdeadwright

Don't get why people rate Bellew so highly, he's decent but thats about it
His best win is Makabu who isn't really that great, what's next beating a crippled Haye ?
Does anyone really rate Bellew outside of England ?
He hit the jackpot with Hearn promoting him ,

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Is that how you would describe Usyk defensively? "High guard and hope that shots don't sneak through to really hurt you?" You're making him sound like he's Scott Quigg or something. There must be another Oleksander Usyk out there because this isn't the one I'm watching. The Usyk I've seen couldn't be any further from being described as basic.

I think Bellew slipping a few of the most telegraphed punches I've ever seen in a boxing ring from a shot one legged Haye has people thinking he's some high level defensive fighter. That's just not the case. Watch him get dropped by Makabu, watch him get wobbled big time against Brudov. He can be hit and hurt.

No, he has more to him that just a high guard.

Both Usyk and Bellew can be hit regularly enough...

Morrison J

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Don't get why people rate Bellew so highly, he's decent but thats about it
His best win is Makabu who isn't really that great, what's next beating a crippled Haye ?
Does anyone really rate Bellew outside of England ?
He hit the jackpot with Hearn promoting him ,

It's mad how much the narrative around him has changed since he beat an over the hill Haye with one working leg coming off spinal reconstruction surgery. Nobody really rated him as world class before that. Now he's being said to be at least on par technically with one of the best fighters of this generation. You couldn't write it.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

No, he has more to him that just a high guard.

Both Usyk and Bellew can be hit regularly enough...

Usyk can be touched but caught flush on the button? I haven't see it. A lot of what Breidis caught him with lacked any real meat behind it because Usyk came forward all night, put Breidis on the backfoot and didn't allow him to come forward and put any substance behind his punches. Was actually a pretty good defensive performance imo in a far higher level fight than we'll see on Saturday.

You hinted at the fact that you don't know how good Usyk's chin is on the first page. Surely we'd know that by now if he was that easy to hit?

yourdeadwright

"It's mad how much the narrative around him has changed since he beat an over the hill Haye with one working leg coming off spinal reconstruction surgery. Nobody really rated him as world class before that. Now he's being said to be at least on par technically with one of the best fighters of this generation. You couldn't write it "

It's the magic of Hearn , Sure he was a world beater after beating Cleverly , people even calling him world class for beating Flores for f*ck sake,

He really annoys me with the drivel he talks at press conferences,

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

You hinted at the fact that you don't know how good Usyk's chin is on the first page. Surely we'd know that by now if he was that easy to hit?

Yes, but it's what is actually hitting him and landing so clean and flush....

Bellew presents a different type of puncher....the type of shot, the impact, the delivery etc.....Bellew impresses me here...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but it's what is actually hitting him and landing so clean and flush....

Bellew presents a different type of puncher....the type of shot, the impact, the delivery etc.....Bellew impresses me here...

Right I think you're full of contradictions here. Bellew is possibly the better defensive fighter in your eyes yet you've never seen Usyk hit clean against fighters I would say are superior and hit harder than Bellew in Breidis and Gassiev. We've seen Bellew wobbled, dropped, stopped. I think the answer is that Usyk is a far superior defensive boxer tbh but anyway.

If Bellew was some kind of deadly accurate hard puncher it wouldn't have taken him 11 rounds to stop Haye in the first fight. Usyk has very little to worry about.

walshb

I never said Bellew was a better defensive fighter. I'd rate them similar. No contradictions at all...

Simple: I think the types of shot and the delivery of shots and the technique in delivering shots from Bellew could surprise Usyk. I never said Usyk was not hit flush or clean....

You are placing a lot in that Gassier fight I feel.....a fooking mummy who didn't event try....

Auroras_encore

bellew has a punchers chance thats all , usyk can be as good technically as he wants but he's so feather fisted that when he moves up to fight the super hw's hes going to get the jaw taking off him

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Simple: I think the types of shot and the delivery of shots and the technique in delivering shots from Bellew could surprise Usyk.

Why would they though? Bellew throws his punches by the book. Absolutely nothing to be surprised by there. Nothing Usyk hasn't seen in his 350+ fights amateur or pro.

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

Unless I missed it in this thread, What does Bellew do that makes him a technically better fighter than Usyk?

You need to ask Johnny Nelson this.

walshb

I think this comes down to (among other things) Usyk setting a pace that is quite intense and frenetic, forcing Bellew to work and think non stop.....could see Bellew gassing badly mid to late rds.

Angliru

Bellew isn't a huge puncher so he doesn't have a punchers chance. Usyk has fought Cruisers, Heavies and Superheavies that punch twice as hard as Bellew. Like the Haye fights, his only chance is that Usyk has had a freak injury that pops up on fight night. Bellew is a decent all rounder and that is that. Usyk has an advantage over him in every category. Usyk is one of the best defensive fighters in the game and has a fantastic approach to offence. He is relentless, accurate and breaks you mentally as much as physically with his output and shot selection. He's not a perfect fighter but he is not a million miles away from it. If Bellew somehow wins it is up there with Leicester City winning the Premier League in terms of shocks.

megadodge

Being one of the best boxers in the world and being one of the best technical boxers in the world are two different things. It's unfortunate that some people here don't seem to be aware of this.

There are plenty of boxers out there I'd rate as being better than Usyk technically. There aren't too many I'd rate as being better than Usyk.

Morrison J

megadodge wrote: »

Being one of the best boxers in the world and being one of the best technical boxers in the world are two different things. It's unfortunate that some people here don't seem to be aware of this.

There are plenty of boxers out there I'd rate as being better than Usyk technically. There aren't too many I'd rate as being better than Usyk.

Well we'll just agree to disagree so. For me Usyk is a far better technical boxer than Bellew as well as being just the overall better boxer. Bellew is the better puncher. That's all he has on him.

FTA69

Got Usyk KO at evens. Can't see past an Usyk victory, either KO or a handy win.

yourdeadwright

Bellew as usual talking dribble in the press conference yesterday ,
How many times a press conference does he say "believe you me "

I gotta say I love the way Usyk says something in his native tongue has a little smirk and then the interrupter says in English something complimentary to Bellew ,

He is defo taking the piss but Bellew can't call him out because he pretends he doesn't know English

normanoffside

FTA69 wrote: »

Got Usyk KO at evens. Can't see past an Usyk victory, either KO or a handy win.

Usyk by TKO is being offered at 15/8 on PP.
I think it's the most likely form of a KO so I am going to lump on.

Usyk in rounds 7-12 is also tempting

A Shaved Duck?

normanoffside wrote: »

Usyk by TKO is being offered at 15/8 on PP.
I think it's the most likely form of a KO so I am going to lump on.

Usyk in rounds 7-12 is also tempting

Good price, all i can see is bellew getting peppered for the first 6 rounds then fading and possibly Dave Caldwell throwing in the towel as bellew has a big heart and could get hurt.

normanoffside

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

Good price, all i can see is bellew getting peppered for the first 6 rounds then fading and possibly Dave Caldwell throwing in the towel as bellew has a big heart and could get hurt.

Yeah I’ve just stuck €100 separately on Usyk TKO at 15/8 and Usyk 7-12 at 23/10

Good chance both come through

Auroras_encore

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Bellew as usual talking dribble in the press conference yesterday ,
How many times a press conference does he say "believe you me "

I gotta say I love the way Usyk says something in his native tongue has a little smirk and then the interrupter says in English something complimentary to Bellew ,

He is defo taking the piss but Bellew can't call him out because he pretends he doesn't know English

the meltdown you'll have when bellew knocks out usyk will be glorious

Morrison J

Auroras_encore wrote: »

the meltdown you'll have when bellew knocks out usyk will be glorious

You've worded that as if it's a foregone conclusion that Bellew beats an Olympic champion, who's just unified all four belts in the toughest division in the sport.

I don't know how anyone could possibly pick Bellew in this fight and put genuine logic behind it. Everything points to Usyk and easily.

yourdeadwright

Auroras_encore wrote: »

the meltdown you'll have when bellew knocks out usyk will be glorious

Why would I have a melt down ?
Its a boxing match between two lads iv never meet in my life or have no affiliation to, why would I care who wins ?
Ye sure I think Usyk is a better fighter and should win s but if he doesn't it makes no difference to my life ,

I don't get people who get in bad form if there favoured fighter/soccer team /rugby team or whatever loses ,
I'm a grow man with a family Win lose or draw I still have to get up the next morning and go about my life in the same manor as I did the previous day,

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

I don't know how anyone could possibly pick Bellew in this fight and put genuine logic behind it. Everything points to Usyk and easily.

That's the intriguing thing with boxing at times. Fights you expect to go a certain way do not due to a styles clash. And the heavily favored fighter does't dominate or win as easily as some think, and at times even loses..

Case in point: Curry-Honeygan....

There are more examples....

Can Bellew present a style and a plan, that even if it doesn't win, makes the fight very competitive?

Will Usyk's strengths be nullified by Bellew because of what Bellew can show and do?

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

That's the intriguing thing with boxing at times. Fights you expect to go a certain way do not due to a styles clash. And the heavily favored fighter does't dominate or win as easily as some think, and at times even loses..

Case in point: Curry-Honeygan....

There are more examples....

Can Bellew present a style and a plan, that even if it doesn't win, makes the fight very competitive?

Will Usyk's strengths be nullified by Bellew because of what Bellew can show and do?

But you can't pick a winner of a fight based on that sort of logic. Anyone I see picking Bellew is basing it on intangible nonsense like his determination or because "Bellew has proven me wrong too many times before." Zero substance to that kind of logic.

I think he's game enough and skilled enough that he'll have the odd moment here or there and will come out of the fight with credit but we've seen zero in the past to suggest he can actually win this fight which why I struggle to understand why people are so intrigued by it. On paper this is fairly one-sided.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

But you can't pick a winner of a fight based on that sort of logic. Anyone I see picking Bellew is basing it on intangible nonsense like his determination or because "Bellew has proven me wrong too many times before." Zero substance to that kind of logic.

I think he's game enough and skilled enough that he'll have the odd moment here or there and will come out of the fight with credit but we've seen zero in the past to suggest he can actually win this fight which why I struggle to understand why people are so intrigued by it. On paper this is fairly one-sided.

I am more talking about it possibly being closer than what most think..

I have Usyk via TKO, but I think there will be competition here and that Bellew will make a fight of it......

I doubt it will be glaringly obvious from bell 1 to the end that Usyk is so so superior...

I reckon Usyk breaks Bellew down and wears him out, but in a hard fought and competitive fight.....

Similar to Spence/Brook in terms of who is winning.....not necessarily similar in how it plays out.......

Can we expect a fair few difficult to score rds and if so, those picking Usyk via points could be in for an upset?