Changing yellow street lights to white

eviltimeban

Have to say I'm not a fan. There was always something unique about the light cast by a yellow street lamp, a mellow glow that defined night time.

Now the old yellow lamps are being replaced by bright white LED lamps, which are certainly good at their job of illuminating the streets, but cast a very stark light. That magical glow is gone.

Is this happening in your area?

Tell me how

eviltimeban wrote:

Is this happening in your area?

Yes. More energy efficient. Also, less light pollution.

You stop noticing the difference after a while.

CosmicSmash

Problem solved.:pac:

eviltimeban

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. More energy efficient. Also, less light pollution.

You stop noticing the difference after a while.

I get the energy efficiency, but don't think I agree with the light pollution. I'm sure I'll get used to them, it's just a shame that yellow glow is going to disappear.

Tell me how

eviltimeban wrote:

I get the energy efficiency, but don't think I agree with the light pollution. I'm sure I'll get used to them, it's just a shame that yellow glow is going to disappear.

The part in bold "is" the pollution.

wexie

eviltimeban wrote: »

Now the old yellow lamps are being replaced by bright white LED lamps, which are certainly good at their job of illuminating the streets, but cast a very stark light. That magical glow is gone.

Isn't that what they are for? Might as well put up fairy lights otherwise?

eviltimeban wrote: »

Is this happening in your area?

Nope, nearest streetlights are miles away. Darkness is what defines night time.

Thoroughly dislike them, even though they're more efficient and objectively better.

They ruin the atmosphere, and in my opinion, that is actually worth something.

Effects

eviltimeban wrote: »

I get the energy efficiency, but don't think I agree with the light pollution. I'm sure I'll get used to them, it's just a shame that yellow glow is going to disappear.

People probably said the same thing when gas street lights stopped being used.

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

Thoroughly dislike them, even though they're more efficient and objectively better.

They ruin the atmosphere, and in my opinion, that is actually worth something.

I much prefer white light myself. And this was the case before they were LEDs. The street lights they used abroad had a nice white colour temperature/colour cast.

Badly Drunk Boy

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. More energy efficient. Also, less light pollution.

You stop noticing the difference after a while.

They changed the light outside my house a few months ago and I reckon it increased the light pollution, downwards anyway. At night, from inside my hallway, it looks like it's bright/daylight outside or as if it has been snowing, it's that bright.

And I still haven't stopped noticing the difference...

Padraig Mor

eviltimeban wrote: »

I get the energy efficiency, but don't think I agree with the light pollution. I'm sure I'll get used to them, it's just a shame that yellow glow is going to disappear.

Yeah, the few that are in my area seem much brighter than the older ones, even allowing for the differences in colour temp. They also stick out like a sore thumb when sited alongside older lights.

Suckit

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

They changed the light outside my house a few months ago and I reckon it increased the light pollution, downwards anyway. At night, from inside my hallway, it looks like it's bright/daylight outside or as if it has been snowing, it's that bright.

And I still haven't stopped noticing the difference...

I saw them in a nearby estate. It honestly looks like they don't know what they are doing, just got cheap bright LEDs and stick them up.

There must have been a reason in the earlier decades that softer colours were used. The ones near me are orange mostly, with some yellow. None are white.



I can only imagine that those new bright white gank ones will have a negative effect on wildlife.

eviltimeban

I see there was a post on this last year:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057731453

Nice shot of the difference. Just came across it on Reddit.

Franz Von Peppercorn

I miss the old neon lights.

eviltimeban

There's a few in my estate (including one right over my back garden), and the difference side by side makes for really weird lighting.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

They ruin the atmosphere, and in my opinion, that is actually worth something.

They are much less harmful to the environment than traditional sodium lights.

They might make the place look different but the idea is that the contribute to reducing the harm done to the environment.

Suckit wrote: »

I can only imagine that those new bright white gank ones will have a negative effect on wildlife.

No more than conventional lighting in terms of circadian rhythms it seems but given the reduced material and energy consumption, it would seem wildlife will be better off in the long run.

Some views on LED lighting in the US

For the last several decades, most street lighting in the United States has used high-pressure sodium (HPS) technology, which emits orange-yellowish light. HPS street lighting is being replaced by street lighting technologies that emit “white” light – primarily LED, due to its higher efficiency and longer life. All white-light technologies – including LED – emit more short-wavelength light than HPS. In addition to lasting longer and being more efficient – which by the way provide substantial energy and cost savings – LED street lighting also offers other potential benefits. For example, unlike other types of street lighting, LED systems can be adjusted to provide only the level of illumination needed at any given time, and can also offer a high degree of control over the direction in which light is emitted. This makes it much easier to reduce glare, light trespass (the spillover of light into areas where it’s not wanted), and uplight (which contributes to the phenomenon of “sky glow” that reduces visibility of stars in the night sky).

eviltimeban

The field of light cast is certainly far narrower. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing, more shadows for bad guys to hide in?

At least the sodium lights cast a yellow light more evenly.

Suckit

Tell me how wrote: »

They are much less harmful to the environment than traditional sodium lights.

They might make the place look different but the idea is that the contribute to reducing the harm done to the environment.

No more than conventional lighting in terms of circadian rhythms it seems but given the reduced material and energy consumption, it would seem wildlife will be better off in the long run.

Some views on LED lighting in the US

I'm not debating the values of LED on energy bills etc.


I meant that they could be LED but with a yellow hue, or a soft/warm glow, rather than the white bright light that they are putting up in housing estates.



I don't like it at all.

cruizer101

Have to say I don't like them and agree with eviltime the light they cast seems to be more concentrated leading to darker spots/shadows where its hard to see. To me that seems more dangerous as you don't know what is in shadow.

Tell me how

Suckit wrote: »

I'm not debating the values of LED on energy bills etc.

I meant that they could be LED but with a yellow hue, or a soft/warm glow, rather than the white bright light that they are putting up in housing estates.

I don't like it at all.

Looks like some changes are being made in places

(CNN)In response to recent guidance by the American Medical Association against the use of powerful LED lights, cities such as Phoenix; Lake Worth, Florida; and 25 towns in Connecticut are now opting for street lamps with lower color temperatures, meaning less blue light emission.

The association's policy statement, released in June, suggested that LED lights with color temperatures higher than 3000 Kelvin had adverse effects on health, including eye damage and disrupted sleep patterns. The warning was aimed at large cities, where the standard color temperature for LED street lights is 5000K to 6000K.

Maybe what we are seeing now is the identification of teething problems which will be ironed out hopefully.

CelticRambler

I remember when the old white lights were phased out in favour of yellow. The view of the city at night, coming back from visiting my grandad in the country, was never the same afterwards, and I never got used to it. As recently as last week, down in Waterford-Wexford, I thought the homogenous orange puddles of light around each town ruined the feel of the place. The sooner we go back to the old ways, the better!

Tell me how

CelticRambler wrote: »

I remember when the old white lights were phased out in favour of yellow. The view of the city at night, coming back from visiting my grandad in the country, was never the same afterwards, and I never got used to it. As recently as last week, down in Waterford-Wexford, I thought the homogenous orange puddles of light around each town ruined the feel of the place. The sooner we go back to the old ways, the better!

Yeah, the wheel is always turning.
This is a video relating to the removal of old gas lamps from London with a somewhat regretful tone.

eviltimeban

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe what we are seeing now is the identification of teething problems which will be ironed out hopefully.

If that's the case, our councils will probably be years behind.

I do agree they could easily place a tinted cover over the bulbs, but that'd probably cost more money.

Suckit

Tell me how wrote: »

Looks like some changes are being made in places

Maybe what we are seeing now is the identification of teething problems which will be ironed out hopefully.

That was written 2 years ago. How that wasn't known about here before they started putting them up..


They can still be bright without being white.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/blog/warm-white-led-streetlights-theyre-better-environment/4378/

goose2005

i miss the ould gas lamps. and before that starlight and moonlight, which was even whiter than LEDs

Harry Palmr

The leccy bill for sodium street lights is massive - 25w per 250 lumen LED 4w per 250 lumen. Bulb 25k hours average v 40k hours average

Tell me how

Suckit wrote: »

That was written 2 years ago. How that wasn't known about here before they started putting them up..
They can still be bright without being white.


https://www.superbrightleds.com/blog/warm-white-led-streetlights-theyre-better-environment/4378/

Maybe because the process was right for 10,000 cool light fittings who were now lo longer needed somewhere for some strange reason. :rolleyes:

Joking aside, Things move slowly and without yielding in the world of public utilities and procurement. The kelvin value of the lights was probably written on an initial feasibility study 10 years ago and made it all the way through assessment, selection and implementation.

AttentionBebe

The yellow and orange lights are ugly as sin. I can't understand how anyone prefers them.

Harry Palmr

AttentionBebe wrote: »

The yellow and orange lights are ugly as sin. I can't understand how anyone prefers them.

You're probably too young to have seen this but the French used to have yellow headlight lenses as the law. It was a weird hang over from WW2 when local cars needed to be distinguished from the German vehicles.

RiderOnTheStorm

Yup. The wheel is always turning. I remember when all street lights were white, and then they changed them to yellow. IIRC it was something to do with giving a more natural light as the white was very harsh.

Why can't there be yellow LEDs?

Kintarō Hattori

I posted in that thread last year when they started changing over from the sodium lights in the estate I live on. Recently an LED light was put in beside my house and I have to say, as much as I love technology and LEDs, I'm not a fan. It's rather polluting and the garden outside the window is very bright at night. I'm not looking forward to when they replace the light almost directly opposite the house.

Something that doesn't appear to have been mentioned on this thread yet- don't studies show that LED street lighting is very confusing to animals as they have trouble distinguishing between day time and night time?

They replaced a yellow one outside my bedroom window with LED white. At first I thought it was a particularly bright full moon.
But when it went on a few nights and I couldn't sleep with the brightness I realised it was a new bulb. Really disruptive if you're a light sleeper and its bang outside your window!

Quackster

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

Yup. The wheel is always turning. I remember when all street lights were white, and then they changed them to yellow. IIRC it was something to do with giving a more natural light as the white was very harsh.

Why can't there be yellow LEDs?

The first electric street lights used mercury-vapour lamps, which produce a rather ghostly white light. They were phased out in the 60s/70s in favour of low pressure sodium lamps (the really yellow ones) as these bulbs last a lot longer and are significantly more energy efficient. High pressure sodium lamps (the not-quite-so-yellow ones) were also subsequently introduced as they produce a less unnatural light than their low-pressure cousins.

The introduction of LED is just another step towards longer-lasting and higher-efficiency lamps.

wakka12

Looking at side by side I prefer the yellow. But the only reason I even noticed that the lights in my area had changed colour is because theres still one sodium one left that they havnt changed and you can see the contrast

Quackster

wakka12 wrote: »

Looking at side by side I prefer the yellow. But the only reason I even noticed that the lights in my area had changed colour is because theres still one sodium one left that they havnt changed and you can see the contrast

Yep, the issue here, as another poster pointed out, is that LED lamps with an unnecessarily-high colour temperature are being used for some reason. LED lamps with a temperature of 3000K would be perfect.

Effects

Suckit wrote: »

There must have been a reason in the earlier decades that softer colours were used. The ones near me are orange mostly, with some yellow. None are white.

Efficiency, so cheaper to run.

Effects

eviltimeban wrote: »

I do agree they could easily place a tinted cover over the bulbs, but that'd probably cost more money.

And it would cut down on the light output and visibility.

eviltimeban

Effects wrote: »

And it would cut down on the light output and visibility.

Not if it was a subtle tint.

astrofool

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Something that doesn't appear to have been mentioned on this thread yet- don't studies show that LED street lighting is very confusing to animals as they have trouble distinguishing between day time and night time?

The light is no more confusing than the old light, and because it can be more directed, it's actually less disruptive to the wildlife. Of course, it can be over installed causing issues, but so can the old lamps. The LED temperature can also be changed, but white light is the best at illuminating (which is their purpose after all) and hence used most often, the yellow "warm" glow wasn't so much selected, but was the default as that's the only colour they emitted.

TLDR: they could make the LED lights a carbon copy of the old HPS lights in glow and coverage, but it works against the purpose of the lights in the first place.

Dyr

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes. More energy efficient. Also, less light pollution.

You stop noticing the difference after a while.

The whole point of a street light is to produce light pollution

We have LEDs lights down our way, oddly enough you can hardly see a ****ing thing with them. Someone walks past you and you can't make out their face. I'd say Eamonn Ryan is delighted with them

Tell me how

Bambi wrote:

The whole point of a street light is to produce light pollution

Nor in the air above the light when it is focused downward it isn't.

Suckit

Bambi wrote: »

The whole point of a street light is to produce light pollution

We have LEDs lights down our way, oddly enough you can hardly see a ****ing thing with them. Someone walks past you and you can't make out their face. I'd say Eamonn Ryan is delighted with them

Well...... Not to produce light 'pollution'.


http://darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-citizens/bad-streetlights/


http://darksky.org/light-pollution/

Capt'n Midnight

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The leccy bill for sodium street lights is massive - 25w per 250 lumen LED 4w per 250 lumen. Bulb 25k hours average v 40k hours average

Low pressure sodium isn't 10 lumens per watt :rolleyes:

Low Pressure Sodium - SOX
Energy Efficiency up to 180 lumens per watt.

And low pressure sodium is easier to filter out if you want to look at the stars.

Yeah it makes fire engine red look black, but our fire engines have a yellow / red pattern and blue lights so there's that.