School Paneling of Under Age Club Players

fuzzy

My son has been paneled on a school rugby team and is now not allowed to play for his club. This seems unfair and unethical. Does anybody have a similar experience they can share. Also, is there something I can do to change this?

Chico Flores

Standard practice. Ensures some club teams cannot load up with schools players.

Either takes himself off panel and consideration for school and plays club only or plays for the school.

fuzzy

We tried to do this. However, the Munster Rugby Committee will not allow it.

Quin_Dub

fuzzy wrote: »

My son has been paneled on a school rugby team and is now not allowed to play for his club. This seems unfair and unethical. Does anybody have a similar experience they can share. Also, is there something I can do to change this?

Schools get to panel 28 players for Jnr & Snr Cup squads who are then not allowed play Club rugby until after the school is eliminated from the cup.

It's why at U16 & U18 in Limerick in particular most of the city clubs have to form amalgamations with other clubs to field teams as there are 6 schools in the city which removes ~150 players from each age group from club rugby.


Is he getting game time in School?

Keep track of how much game time he's getting in actual matches and how many starts he gets. If he's not getting meaningful game time then you can apply again to the branch with that information.

fuzzy

He has refused to play for the school. So he won't be getting any rugby. I struggle to see how it can be legal to stop a kid playing rugby for his club.

The Lost Sheep

fuzzy wrote: »

My son has been paneled on a school rugby team and is now not allowed to play for his club. This seems unfair and unethical. Does anybody have a similar experience they can share. Also, is there something I can do to change this?

This happens every season and its to do with kids playing both and some kids playing too much.
Is your son getting game time in school. Does the school field second team, is it junior or senior level?
If not getting game time for the school you can look to be released.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Schools get to panel 28 players for Jnr & Snr Cup squads who are then not allowed play Club rugby until after the school is eliminated from the cup.

It's why at U16 & U18 in Limerick in particular most of the city clubs have to form amalgamations with other clubs to field teams as there are 6 schools in the city which removes ~150 players from each age group from club rugby.
Is he getting game time in School?
Keep track of how much game time he's getting in actual matches and how many starts he gets. If he's not getting meaningful game time then you can apply again to the branch with that information.

And then only allowed play in one competition not others.
This issue needs to be sorted once and for all. Needs all parties to be involved in decision. How many parents dont know about this until it affects their own son directly?

fuzzy

It would be useful to know how many kids are placed on school panels against their will.

Chico Flores

fuzzy wrote: »

It would be useful to know how many kids are placed on school panels against their will.

We aren't talking about slavery here either!!

fuzzy

Chico Flores wrote: »

We aren't talking about slavery here either!!

Nope. Just unfair use of power, preventing a kid from playing for his club.

The Lost Sheep

Chico Flores wrote: »

We aren't talking about slavery here either!!

But there is plenty of kids who are named on schools panels and not getting anywhere near rugby they should but are not allowed play in the u16/18.5s club leagues

Chico Flores

fuzzy wrote: »

Nope. Just unfair use of power, preventing a kid from playing for his club.

I don't disagree, just tone is slightly over the top "illegal"

The rule is good in principle, but can obviously mean some lads lose out on rugby and are lost to the game.

Were you not aware this might be the case?

Chico Flores

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But there is plenty of kids who are named on schools panels and not getting anywhere near rugby they should but are not allowed play in the u16/18.5s club leagues

I would agree, either small panels or an exemption based on the minutes played etc.

The principle is sound, it does need fine tuning.

fuzzy

Chico Flores wrote: »

I don't disagree, just tone is slightly over the top "illegal"

The rule is good in principle, but can obviously mean some lads lose out on rugby and are lost to the game.

Were you not aware this might be the case?

I wasn't aware the school could do this. It seems utterly ridiculous to place a player on a panel when he has clearly stated this is against his wish.

Quin_Dub

fuzzy wrote: »

I wasn't aware the school could do this. It seems utterly ridiculous to place a player on a panel when he has clearly stated this is against his wish.

If the kid told the school in advance that they didn't want to be paneled , totally agree.

The branch are probably trying to prevent "setting a precedent" , but still anyone involved in underage sport should make all their decisions based on what's best for the player.

And what's best for the player is that they are getting lots of game time and that they enjoying it.

Anything that doesn't strive for that is missing the point entirely.

The Lost Sheep

Chico Flores wrote: »

I would agree, either small panels or an exemption based on the minutes played etc.

The principle is sound, it does need fine tuning.

Smaller numbers of pannelled players should happen like clubs and schools should be able to panel 10 each with the rest able to play either/both

fuzzy wrote: »

I wasn't aware the school could do this. It seems utterly ridiculous to place a player on a panel when he has clearly stated this is against his wish.

Is your son playing junior or senior?
Panelling has been in place for years. Its unfortunate but i would assume parents would know about this policy at this stage

daheff

fuzzy wrote: »

I wasn't aware the school could do this. It seems utterly ridiculous to place a player on a panel when he has clearly stated this is against his wish.

if you feel that strongly then i would suggest you put your objection in writing to

Minister for Education (who ultimately has oversight of the school)
Minister for Sport
School Principle
IRFU
Munster rugby branch.


Outline how your son does not want to play for the school (and why if possible) and how the situation is unfair to him in that the school have co-opted him to the team and blocked him playing for his club ,which has has done for X number of years.

If that fails send a letter to the head of sport at your local paper.

fuzzy

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Smaller numbers of pannelled players should happen like clubs and schools should be able to panel 10 each with the rest able to play either/both

Is your son playing junior or senior?
Panelling has been in place for years. Its unfortunate but i would assume parents would know about this policy at this stage

He's a Junior. First team player on both club and school.

I'm not sure knowing about it in advance is much use. The school and Munster higher ups did not allow any choice in the matter, despite prior written request not to be placed on the school panel.

fuzzy

Chico Flores wrote: »

I don't disagree, just tone is slightly over the top "illegal"

The rule is good in principle, but can obviously mean some lads lose out on rugby and are lost to the game.

Were you not aware this might be the case?

I can't agree the rule is good. It's simply wrong to disregard a child's preference.

Quin_Dub

For this specific issue , it seems fairly simple that the solution is to de-panel the player - However the downside of that is that the boy might not get back on to a panel in future years as the school might consider that he has "abandoned them" . I have heard of schools telling players that "they will never play for the school again" if they ask to be de-paneled at Jnr cup. That's neither right nor fair , but it does happen sadly.

So if he has a future aspiration to play Snr Cup (or at Jnr cup next year if eligible) then the long term implications of a decision now need to be considered

The principal of panels is a reasonable one , but it's the size and implementation of them where we have problems.

With a panel of 28 , the reality is that there are probably 8-10 players from that squad that will get little to no competitive rugby during the year . you also have the situation where schools are telling players outside the official panel of 28 to not play for their clubs as they are being "considered" for the panel.. Which is at best disingenuous from the schools and at worst a flat out lie.

The schools should panel about 15 players for each squad as their core players who will start/play the majority the games..

Anyone not in that list of 15 should be allowed to play for Club and School with their playing time being measured and managed appropriately between both organisations.

fuzzy

Quin_Dub wrote: »

For this specific issue , it seems fairly simple that the solution is to de-panel the player - However the downside of that is that the boy might not get back on to a panel in future years as the school might consider that he has "abandoned them" . I have heard of schools telling players that "they will never play for the school again" if they ask to be de-paneled at Jnr cup. That's neither right nor fair , but it does happen sadly.



So if he has a future aspiration to play Snr Cup (or at Jnr cup next year if eligible) then the long term implications of a decision now need to be considered

The principal of panels is a reasonable one , but it's the size and implementation of them where we have problems.

With a panel of 28 , the reality is that there are probably 8-10 players from that squad that will get little to no competitive rugby during the year . you also have the situation where schools are telling players outside the official panel of 28 to not play for their clubs as they are being "considered" for the panel.. Which is at best disingenuous from the schools and at worst a flat out lie.

The schools should panel about 15 players for each squad as their core players who will start/play the majority the games..

Anyone not in that list of 15 should be allowed to play for Club and School with their playing time being measured and managed appropriately between both organisations.

Again, I'd make the point that the player should have a choice regardless of how much rugby he can play. This did not happen on this occasion. Now he can't get off the panel.

The Lost Sheep

Quin_Dub wrote: »

For this specific issue , it seems fairly simple that the solution is to de-panel the player - However the downside of that is that the boy might not get back on to a panel in future years as the school might consider that he has "abandoned them" . I have heard of schools telling players that "they will never play for the school again" if they ask to be de-paneled at Jnr cup. That's neither right nor fair , but it does happen sadly.

So if he has a future aspiration to play Snr Cup (or at Jnr cup next year if eligible) then the long term implications of a decision now need to be considered

The principal of panels is a reasonable one, but it's the size and implementation of them where we have problems.

With a panel of 28, the reality is that there are probably 8-10 players from that squad that will get little to no competitive rugby during the year. you also have the situation where schools are telling players outside the official panel of 28 to not play for their clubs as they are being "considered" for the panel.. Which is at best disingenuous from the schools and at worst a flat out lie.

The schools should panel about 15 players for each squad as their core players who will start/play the majority the games..

Anyone not in that list of 15 should be allowed to play for Club and School with their playing time being measured and managed appropriately between both organisations.

Its less than 8-10 who get little to no competitive rugby. Schools are not limiting themselves by and large to just 18/19 players.... but schools and clubs should be allowed panel a small number of players each as core players with rest allowed play club and school

Quin_Dub

fuzzy wrote: »

Again, I'd make the point that the player should have a choice regardless of how much rugby he can play. This did not happen on this occasion. Now he can't get off the panel.

In your example , you are absolutely correct , if he doesn't want to play in school then he should not be forced..

However without some level of control over playing time , the risk is that kids get totally burned out - Playing 2 or 3 games a week along with training isn't a great idea. Add to that volume is the likelihood that they are playing another sport as well and all of a sudden the player is just getting chewed up.

The target at youth level is for a player to play about 20 games a season.

A full club season at U16 is going to account for a minimum of 12-15 competitive games with a schools season at Jnr Cup probably giving at least 8-10 Competitive games. Add in challenge games and you'd be looking at 30+ games which is too much.

There needs to be structure and control around the season , but forcing a player to do something they don't want is totally wrong.

The Lost Sheep

daheff wrote: »

if you feel that strongly then i would suggest you put your objection in writing to

Minister for Education (who ultimately has oversight of the school)
Minister for Sport
School Principal
IRFU
Munster rugby branch.

Outline how your son does not want to play for the school (and why if possible) and how the situation is unfair to him in that the school have co-opted him to the team and blocked him playing for his club ,which has has done for X number of years.

If that fails send a letter to the head of sport at your local paper.

Id go to press ahead of some of those to write to. There was a parent last year or year before who contacted one of the radio stations to complain about the same issue as the OP and a son not getting anywhere near enough rugby.

fuzzy wrote: »

He's a Junior. First team player on both club and school.

I'm not sure knowing about it in advance is much use. The school and Munster higher ups did not allow any choice in the matter, despite prior written request not to be placed on the school panel.

Knowing about it in advance would be of use in that you could have prepared. Looked to do more to ensure son can get to play rugby somewhere on a regular basis. If on panel and not getting game time you can look to be released for club rugby. Keep on to school as much as possible

The Lost Sheep

This is a Liam Toland article on issue from last year
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/liam-toland-young-players-need-more-meaningful-rugby-1.3229618
"meaningful rugby"...... something proper needs to be in place but not sure how it'll happen if ever

This wouldnt be a problem if schools played predominantly/always mid week and didnt play at weekends like in Connacht where kids play both. And are seeing record numbers competing in club and school competitions like the schools cups which will be drawn at the weekends Connacht pro14 game https://community.connachtrugby.ie/record-number-of-teams-to-contest-top-oil-connacht-schools-cups/

Read this as "school paddling of under age club players" and I thought the sport was about to be hit with another team 'initiation' scandal.

fuzzy

Thanks for the link to the article.

Losty Dublin

Quin_Dub wrote: »

However without some level of control over playing time , the risk is that kids get totally burned out - Playing 2 or 3 games a week along with training isn't a great idea. Add to that volume is the likelihood that they are playing another sport as well and all of a sudden the player is just getting chewed up.
.

By way of backing you up here.

When I was playing schools U 14 it was Monday JCT, Tuesday U 14 training, Wednesday Match, Thursday U 14/JCT training and a match on Saturday. Often I had a swim on the Tuesday after training as well and whatever other PE classes. One week I injured my right foot in a gameand short of players so I played on it for 3 weeks and 7 games until Mum took me out of school as I couldn't walk. That was me done for the season and all for the want of not laying up when I needed to.

Hands Like Flippers

Did BOD not play one year for club u16 instead of Rock?

The Lost Sheep

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Did BOD not play one year for club u16 instead of Rock?

He did. played with mates he'd grown up with, In Clontarf

Quin_Dub

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Did BOD not play one year for club u16 instead of Rock?

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

He did. played with mates he'd grown up with, In Clontarf

I did the same myself in Leinster back in the day , but the rules have changed now..

In Leinster , if you are in a Rugby school you cannot play competitive Club rugby , but that works out ok in Leinster as the numbers are there to allow both to compete well.

This issue is really unique to Limerick due to the concentration of rugby schools in Limerick city - all but two of the secondary schools are Rugby schools so the impact is massive to the city clubs

fuzzy

I suppose the key point here is the schools should be bound to seek consent from players before preventing them from playing for their club. The people in charge of the sport appear to be unconcerned about unfairness when it comes to promoting the school rugby agenda. This is fairly contemptible.

The Lost Sheep

fuzzy wrote: »

I suppose the key point here is the schools should be bound to seek consent from players before preventing them from playing for their club. The people in charge of the sport appear to be unconcerned about unfairness when it comes to promoting the school rugby agenda. This is fairly contemptible.

The people in charge of the sport are completely concerned with this issue. Its been discussed/argued over for decades at this stage and it isnt simply about promoting school rugby agenda.

mun1

One cork school have depanelled 5 players last week after parents threatened legal action if they weren’t panelled. The branch agreed as long as 5 other players weren’t added afterwards.

What my club in limerick have done in previous year is:
Parents write to school before paneling stating that they did not wish their child to be panelled . Some have got a solicitors letter as well.
If paneling happens then get another letter in quoting your wishes from the first letter.
Send this to munster branch. There is now precedence this season with this non cork city school depanelling players.

If your child is getting depressed of down about it then report it to the Spirit officer, munster rugby, Emily O’Leary (contact details on munster rugby.ie)who will look into the case with the child’s welfare as the main priority.

The school will expect you to eventually go away and they can intimidate your child to play schools rugby.

My own case a good few years ago was that i was struggling with the academic side of school pre leaving cert and my father asked that i be removed form the panel before Xmas to concentrate on my studies.
The schools officially removed me from the panel, but each and every day i was was called out of a class by the head coach to ask me in front of everyone why I wouldn’t play for the school.
I eventually agreed to play and after we got to the final (and got hammered:)), i was offered the chance to repeat the leaving cert next year . did i mention i was underage for senior choose the following year ?
I left the school with an average leaving cert and got on with life.
The above is what we would now call child abuse and abuse of power, and there are many more worse cases over the years.

It doesn’t help that the chairman of munster youths (not elected)has just stepped down as the schools representative.
And what happens this September ?all club loans previously approved by the branch have been turned down by the committee leaving about 100 players in the province, mostly cork and limerick without rugby.
Meanwhile there is only one limerick club out of 8 entered into the u16 munster league this season (this club lost 13 players to schools so is down to 17 in squad) while st munchins can field 3 teams for friendlies at u16 two weeks ago.

When the CEO of the IRFU describes the munster clubs as “difficult” in his keynote speech last week , then you know things are stacked against you.

The limerick clubs have made it a priority issue for the branch as its getting worse year on year , but munster rugby and the IRFU want munster to follow Leinster example and concentrate the talent at schools.

fuzzy

Thanks for that Mun1.

Can you clarify: the school had 5 players depanelled after a legal threat from the parents if they weren't panelled. Do you mean, if they were panelled?

mun1

No fuzzy, they were panelled in September and then parents and club forced school to depanel them

Quin_Dub

mun1 wrote: »

The limerick clubs have made it a priority issue for the branch as its getting worse year on year , but munster rugby and the IRFU want munster to follow Leinster example and concentrate the talent at schools.

That's fine and dandy , but the sheer volume of numbers in Leinster mean that works , bt not in Munster.

There are a dozen or so top end schools in Leinster ( and probably at least 100 schools not playing rugby) , mostly in and around Dublin and with 1M+ population there are plenty of players to go around for the clubs to be able to field and do perfectly fine.

However uniquely to Limerick, you have 6 Schools and about 10 clubs and a total population of maybe 75k. As I said earlier there are only 2 schools in Limerick that would not be paneling players.

So clubs that have invested maybe 5 or 6 years into players from U8/U9 to U15 suddenly lose all these players for 3 or 4 years.

It's not sustainable..

mun1

And you can check munster rugby website and see they are now the only school with a junior cup panel of 23

fuzzy

There is 1 school with a panel of 23 on the junior squad. But that school had only 23 at the start of the season.

mun1

Sent you a PM fuzzy. Tough situation to be in and not what rugby should be about

Tim Robbins

fuzzy wrote: »

There is 1 school with a panel of 23 on the junior squad. But that school had only 23 at the start of the season.

Get your son to play Soccer and GAA for local clubs - as the school can't stop him doing that :-)

Zzippy

We don't normally allow discussion of schools rugby, but this is a specific issue that I think is ok to discuss. Please do not name any schools, clubs, players or coaches involved, as this will lead to the thread being closed. Discussion of the topic in general only please.

That's a panelling...

D14Rugby

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I did the same myself in Leinster back in the day , but the rules have changed now..

In Leinster , if you are in a Rugby school you cannot play competitive Club rugby , but that works out ok in Leinster as the numbers are there to allow both to compete well.

This issue is really unique to Limerick due to the concentration of rugby schools in Limerick city - all but two of the secondary schools are Rugby schools so the impact is massive to the city clubs

Don't think that's strictly true in Leinster, there's certainly a lot of players that play for clubs in TY and after the schools season ends anyway.

This whole situation seems weird. You say your son was a first team player for both school and club so is it a case of him wanting to play just club this year instead of school from the start or did something happen to make him not want to play for the school?