Opel: The new Fiat?

ba_barabus

Had a good chat with a friend today about Opel. Both of us have owned them in the past and would have considered them up until recently. The current range seems to have flat lined however. Corsa is ancient but due a change. If the rest of the recent replacements are anything to go by that'll miss the mark however. The Adam, Karl, Astra, Insignia and the SUV range have all been poor in either quality, packaging or sales.

PSA since taking over have gotten cold feet after finding out about emissions fines and poor profitability in Opel. Models based on their platforms seem to be flat lining regarding sales. As the Astra and Insignia aren't on their platforms they're not pushing them much.

So what is the future for Opel? If the current sales decline continues it'll go the way of Fiat here a few years back, from a sales leader to a nobody.

Arthur Daley

It has been coming for years. Since the 80s really. Opel were big sellers here from the 60s to the 90s, but the products where very boring from the mid 80s onwards after cars like the Manta and Ascona were phased out. GM made such a mess of their european business.

PSA may stabilise it, but it will be just another variant of the same platform, to ensure they keep share in Germany.

bazz26

The Adam and Karl are no more, both models discontinued now.

The rest of the range is just marmite, there is nothing there that stands out from the crowd or brings anything unique to their segment. Too much good competition out there these days, selling bland inferior metal primarily to rental companies and fleet managers at large discounts is as good as it gets for Opel these days.

ba_barabus

bazz26 wrote: »

The Adam and Karl are no more, both models discontinued now.

The rest of the range is just marmite, there is nothing there that stands out from the crowd or brings anything unique to their segment. Too much good competition out there these days, selling bland inferior metal primarily to rental companies and fleet managers at large discounts is as good as it gets for Opel these days.

I did see somewhere that PSA had stopped all that. It would certainly explain why I'm seeing very few newly registered cars. In terms of them being marmite cars I could always see a reason to like them but the new Insignia looks awkward as does the new SUV models, well, they're more bland than anything else.

I'm wondering are they being discounted at this stage to try shift them to private buyers.

ba_barabus

Arthur Daley wrote: »

It has been coming for years. Since the 80s really. Opel were big sellers here from the 60s to the 90s, but the products where very boring from the mid 80s onwards after cars like the Manta and Ascona were phased out. GM made such a mess of their european business.

PSA may stabilise it, but it will be just another variant of the same platform, to ensure they keep share in Germany.

I'd say the rot has almost gone terminal in the last 2 years. The older Astra sold well as did the Corsa. Insignia too. But as it's all been replaced sales have just dried up.

JoeA3

They were regularly top of the sales charts here right up to the mid-late 1990’s. They were an Irish family car staple, the Astra / Vectra were probably neck and neck with the Corolla / Avensis in sales terms I’d say.
But that’s 30 years ago and they’re stalled ever since. Generally mediocre to awful cars, awful packaging. The Korean brands, not to mention the likes of Skoda have completely blown them out of the water while Opel stands still. I can’t think of a single model in their lineup that could be worth a mention.

Outkast_IRE

An uncle of mine works for a garage that have Opel and Honda on the same forecourt. He said the amount of big and small issues on the Opel's is astounding plenty of gearbox and clutch replacement in cars only a few years old. The Honda's look bullet proof in comparison , very few issues .

bazz26

I'd say sponsorship of the Irish soccer team back in the 1980s and 1990s had a good bit to do with their popularity here at the time too.

tossy

Who remembers the world cup '90 edition of the Kadett ? I think the stuck world cup stickers on the front wings and gave you colour coded bumpers.

darragh o meara

tossy wrote: »

Who remembers the world cup '90 edition of the Kadett ? I think the stuck world cup stickers on the front wings and gave you colour coded bumpers.

A chap in my town had one up til very recently, great little car.

redcup342

Opel Mocha is a terrible car, while its seems quite big the space on the inside is awful, it's like a reverse tardis.

Ride quality is terrible, you feel every bump in the road and the center of gravity is too high, steering lacks any sort of meaningful feed back.

The quality of the interior is awful, plasticy as hell. Ford are way ahead of them.

bigroad

That have got a bit boring in the last few years.
Pity because the Omega,Vectra,were very good cars.
I think they need some excitement in their range.
What about a new manta rwd .

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Wildly Boaring

Title is harsh on Fiat

500 better seller than any Opel Europe wide I'd hazard.

Leonard Hofstadter

Apparently they made a profit of €502 million earlier this year. They can't be doing too badly from that point of view.

Presumably as more and more cars switch to PSA running gear those numbers will only improve further.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ap-psa-succeeds-where-gm-failed-making-opel-profitable-2018-7

Avatar MIA

jacksie66 wrote: »

Vectra was far from good. I had nothing but issues with my Vectra B I had over 10 years ago and the Vectra c last year.

And not much luck apparently with your other Opel, Saab 9-3*


* which I also owned once upon a time. A great car.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

galvo_clare

I had the Ascona Cup from 1986. Bought it in ‘89 from a friend and loved that car. Brought me to college and was always the coolest car in the car park.
All white, wide (185mm!) tyres, Recaro seats and door cards in Opel’s silver/grey/yellow colours.
Put a lot of miles on it and the only trouble towards the end was a ht lead causing a misfire.
No power steering so a monumentally heavy wheel to turn.
Probably scrapped now but if you ever see 747 WIE. It was mine.

tossy wrote: »

Who remembers the world cup '90 edition of the Kadett ? I think the stuck world cup stickers on the front wings and gave you colour coded bumpers.

porsche boy

If you have the view that what is being sold now is the product of design & planning from nearly a decade ago you can see how GM didnt invest & manage it properly and sold up as the cracks began to show. It's not that dissimilar to how they ruined SAAB with half finished development and half arsed planning. PSA are aligning Opel models with whatever they can share platforms in the future, reducing cost... economies of scale etc. Will it work work though???

colm_mcm

Saab was a basket case though. It’s easy blame GM for their demise, but they were unlikely to survive whilst retaining their way of doing things - with or without GM.
Maybe VW would have bought them and we might have yet another version of the Tiguan to choose from.

theoneeyedman

Are opel even German anymore really?

Their ads proclaim their German-Ness repeatedly, but isn't a lot of their manufacturing in Spain and Eastern Europe, and of course are French owned. Is there much of a German presence at all?

Arthur Daley

They are down circa 400,000 Europe wide vs the 1.3million they sold in 2007.

But up to the end of 2017, Opel/Vauxhall sales across Europe at 935,000 haven't tailed off that badly this decade, since 2010, when they sold 1.007 million.

They were up in 2017 935,000 vs 2013 824,000 for instance. Can't separate Opel and Vauxhall sales stats, but they are likely to trend the same way.

tossy

galvo_clare wrote: »

I had the Ascona Cup from 1986. Bought it in ‘89 from a friend and loved that car. Brought me to college and was always the coolest car in the car park.
All white, wide (185mm!) tyres, Recaro seats and door cards in Opel’s silver/grey/yellow colours.
Put a lot of miles on it and the only trouble towards the end was a ht lead causing a misfire.
No power steering so a monumentally heavy wheel to turn.
Probably scrapped now but if you ever see 747 WIE. It was mine.

The ascona or the mantra are probably the last Opel cars to age well.

Hellrazer

Ive worked for both franchises and believe me Fiats are more reliable than Opel--that really is saying something.

DaveyDave

redcup342 wrote: »

Opel Mocha is a terrible car, while its seems quite big the space on the inside is awful, it's like a reverse tardis.

Ride quality is terrible, you feel every bump in the road and the center of gravity is too high, steering lacks any sort of meaningful feed back.

The quality of the interior is awful, plasticy as hell. Ford are way ahead of them.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It's the worst car I've driven and considering it's not even cheap there's no excuse for it. Considering the bulky crossover shape there's no headroom and zero room at all in the rear for an adult. Everything is cheap plastic and rattly and that's made even worse by the rough suspension. Despite being on large profile tyres and small wheels you'll feel every bump. There's things I haven't felt driving other cars that the Mokka picks up. Then there's the torque steer which you will encounter quite a bit as you need to work for the power and once you go above 2,500 revs in the petrol it will be screaming at you

Can't comment on any other Opel models but I can't see them being any better.

nc6000

bazz26 wrote:

The Adam and Karl are no more, both models discontinued now.

Strange choice of model names.

ba_barabus

nc6000 wrote: »

Strange choice of model names.

Historical references to the founders of Opel. Rubbish cars though

maddness

Opel used to make some great cars in the 80’s and even some good ones into the 90’s but have been getting worse and worse. I worked for an Opel dealer for a couple of years nearly 20 years ago now and even then the new models were nothing special. The first model Vectra was a nice car but the second one launched in about 2001/02 was awful really.
Shame as I liked the brand.

porsche boy

colm_mcm wrote:

Saab was a basket case though. It’s easy blame GM for their demise, but they were unlikely to survive whilst retaining their way of doing things - with or without GM. Maybe VW would have bought them and we might have yet another version of the Tiguan to choose from.

Easy now!!! SAAB's ethos was safety first and it showed in the crash tests which were usually ahead of competitors, it also cost lots of money but that's what they did. (Google 'Elk Test')

It was a difficult trading environment when it went down but GM caused problem after problem when Spyker cars were trying to breath life back into SAAB and further more law suits & litigation when NEVS was trying to get it back.

I'm still bitter about it... fuggin love my SAAB's

alias no.9

redcup342 wrote: »

Opel Mocha is a terrible car, while its seems quite big the space on the inside is awful, it's like a reverse tardis.

Ride quality is terrible, you feel every bump in the road and the center of gravity is too high, steering lacks any sort of meaningful feed back.

The quality of the interior is awful, plasticy as hell. Ford are way ahead of them.

A like for like comparison would pitch the Ford Ecosport against the Mokka X, not much for either manufacturer to be proud of.

colm_mcm

To be fair to the Mokka, it’s nowhere near as bad as the Ecosport.

ba_barabus

colm_mcm wrote: »

To be fair to the Mokka, it’s nowhere near as bad as the Ecosport.

It's like asking if you'd prefer step in labrador or Alsation turd.

oldsmokey

tossy wrote: »

Who remembers the world cup '90 edition of the Kadett ? I think the stuck world cup stickers on the front wings and gave you colour coded bumpers.

The striker!!! Those kadetts had the most hideous upholstery..and the clattery 1.2 ohv engine, savage

morcombe_wise

bigroad wrote: »

That have got a bit boring in the last few years.
Pity because the Omega,Vectra,were very good cars.
I think they need some excitement in their range.
What about a new manta rwd .

opel ( even the good ones ) were always blandness on four wheels .

id rate fiat above opel , a lot more personality , fiat at least brings out a reaction in drivers , opel is pure vanilla .

morcombe_wise

galvo_clare wrote: »

I had the Ascona Cup from 1986. Bought it in ‘89 from a friend and loved that car. Brought me to college and was always the coolest car in the car park.
All white, wide (185mm!) tyres, Recaro seats and door cards in Opel’s silver/grey/yellow colours.
Put a lot of miles on it and the only trouble towards the end was a ht lead causing a misfire.
No power steering so a monumentally heavy wheel to turn.
Probably scrapped now but if you ever see 747 WIE. It was mine.

my uncle bought a new ascona the same week my dad bought a new kadett in about 1984 when i was seven , both were ok for the times they were . was an ascona any worse than a ford sierra back then , ford were patchy back in the day , some difference today .

morcombe_wise

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Are opel even German anymore really?

Their ads proclaim their German-Ness repeatedly, but isn't a lot of their manufacturing in Spain and Eastern Europe, and of course are French owned. Is there much of a German presence at all?

they were never german, owned by GM for at least fifty years but never sold in the usa , built in germany , vauxhall built in the uk .

aussies had the holden which while more or less the same are assumed to be 100% australian down under , used to have great craic telling the aussies their holden commodore was an opel vectra or pretty close to .

For Forks Sake

oldsmokey wrote: »

The striker!!! Those kadetts had the most hideous upholstery..and the clattery 1.2 ohv engine, savage

A daft idea.

Not quite as daft as what Fiat got up to mind...

JohnBoy26

morcombe_wise wrote: »

opel ( even the good ones ) were always blandness on four wheels .

id rate fiat above opel , a lot more personality , fiat at least brings out a reaction in drivers , opel is pure vanilla .

Apart from the 500 and the 124(mazda based), fiat's range is as bland as anything.

JohnBoy26

morcombe_wise wrote: »

my uncle bought a new ascona the same week my dad bought a new kadett in about 1984 when i was seven , both were ok for the times they were . was an ascona any worse than a ford sierra back then , ford were patchy back in the day , some difference today .

The sierra was a good car and was way more modern than an ascona.

Fords today are patchy enough too.

Marcusm

morcombe_wise wrote: »

they were never german, owned by GM for at least fifty years but never sold in the usa , built in germany , vauxhall built in the uk .

aussies had the holden which while more or less the same are assumed to be 100% australian down under , used to have great craic telling the aussies their holden commodore was an opel vectra or pretty close to .

Current and previous Insignia is sold in US as Buick Regal. Not really fair to say that Vauxhallis UK made. Ellesmere Port plant produces Corsas or Astras badger as either Opel or Vauxhall and Insignias imported from Belgium/Germany badger as Cauxhall.

Still, it’s bland and becoming irrelevant in RHD markets over past 15 years. Presume it will be a third or 4th badge engineered version of equivalent PSA models. There’s a market for that - look at VAG. Problem is that none of their brands are strong enough to create a halo effect.

tossy

For Forks Sake wrote: »

A daft idea.

Long gone just like the stadium in the back ground

Interslice

In an opel mocka rental today. ive nothing good to say about it. driving around a roundabout is horrible. if you pull the top of the steering wheel towards you the whole thing bends. feels like you could snap the thing right off. its a corsa on stilts. think ill just get the cheaper corsa next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc7PccTHTdY

whiterebel

I’m driving a Mokks for the last 3 years, and its nowhere near as bad as being made out. I’ve done over 100K all over Ireland, and it is comfortable enough to drive. Maybe going up the spec makes a big difference? I’ve leather heated seats, 4x4, good tyres. Certainly not the worst interior I’ve ever been in. Ride on the motorways is smooth, and is ok on country back roads, considering its a very short wheelbase SUV. I’m 6’2 and don’t feel cramped in the cabin. I’ve 2 boys, 6’4 and 6’2 and there is never a complaint about lack of space in the back, unless it s on a long journey, and they complain about an A6 on those journeys!
Room inside is staggering with the back seats down, I bring my own rubbish to the dump every 4 weeks or so, and it never ceases to amaze me how much I can get in. Tardy sir right, but in a different way for me.
Downside - EGR valve and DMF gone in 4 years, and Opel don’t want to know.

rgodard80a

My sister-in-law had an Opel Corsa D from new (2007)

The whole subframe was rotten and a "failed dangerous" in the NCT.
Opel had a 12 year anti-corrosion warranty that was still in effect and got it fixed for free in a local Opel dealer.

But shocking that a car could rust so dangerously within 12 years.

Do ye reckon it's the council salting the roads in winter or some design flaw e.g. not powder coating/protective coating the parts or not including some form of splash guard under the car ?

Wildly Boaring

rgodard80a wrote: »

.

Do ye reckon it's the council salting the roads in winter or some design flaw e.g. not powder coating/protective coating the parts or not including some form of splash guard under the car ?

Not the salt anyway. Every country in Europe uses salt and/or brine

TheDriver

I know a few with insignia and they all have mountains of trouble, very unreliable. Their PSA equivalent Suvs are pants, awful looking yokes. I can see the brand going into extinction.

ba_barabus

TheDriver wrote: »

I know a few with insignia and they all have mountains of trouble, very unreliable. Their PSA equivalent Suvs are pants, awful looking yokes. I can see the brand going into extinction.

Pretty much why I came up with the comparison in the thread title. I actually like Fiat but for years they but poor quality cars the market didn't want. They're almost extinct in Europe now. The difference between them and Opel is that Fiat can sell into other markets like Latin America and do very well.

TheDriver

I was shocked at the problems people were facing with 08-15 insignia. I know of 2 total engine seizures not to mention pumps, electrics, throttles etc with no obvious reason in most cases. Hence why u can get them so so cheap and you won't get any decent price to trade them in.

Arthur Daley

Traditional European brands may be nearing 'extinction' in Ireland thanks to the long Irish love affairs with Toyota,Nissan, and lately Hyundai and Kia. But I don't think you could call them extinct in Europe, especially in their domestic markets.

Fiat have a 5% market share across the continent, and sold 770,000 cars last year. Ok, their share is half what it was in 1990, but it's about the same as it was in 2003. These European giants have narrower ranges now, so they don't try to be all things to all men across the broad market. Opel don't make an Omega/Senator class car, and Fiat don't make a 132/Croma sized car.

Fiat concentrating so much on the panda/500 platform is probably the most extreme example of that narrowing of the range.

AMKC

colm_mcm wrote: »

Saab was a basket case though. It’s easy blame GM for their demise, but they were unlikely to survive whilst retaining their way of doing things - with or without GM.
Maybe VW would have bought them and we might have yet another version of the Tiguan to choose from.

Saab were to get engines from BMW for the last model 9-5 as well. It is a pity that BMW, VW, For, Hyundai or even a Chinese company did not try to buy Saab and let them make the cars like Saab should have been quirky but interesting. It has worked for Volvo having a big Chinese company buy them. I think it was GM do and them not wanting to let the Chinese get there tech do lol that stopped that happening and frightened all the other companies too. .

alias no.9 wrote: »

A like for like comparison would pitch the Ford Ecosport against the Mokka X, not much for either manufacturer to be proud of.

Absolutely terrible name for a car is well. It is not sporty and not really an eco car like a Prius or a leaf either. Really what were Ford thinking?

maddness wrote: »

Opel used to make some great cars in the 80’s and even some good ones into the 90’s but have been getting worse and worse. I worked for an Opel dealer for a couple of years nearly 20 years ago now and even then the new models were nothing special. The first model Vectra was a nice car but the second one launched in about 2001/02 was awful really.
Shame as I liked the brand.

The first Vectra was terrible dull do both inside and out and not very refined either.

Interslice wrote: »

In an opel mocka rental today. ive nothing good to say about it. driving around a roundabout is horrible. if you pull the top of the steering wheel towards you the whole thing bends. feels like you could snap the thing right off. its a corsa on stilts. think ill just get the cheaper corsa next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc7PccTHTdY

What the hell did I just watch lol?

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Traditional European brands may be nearing 'extinction' in Ireland thanks to the long Irish love affairs with Toyota,Nissan, and lately Hyundai and Kia. But I don't think you could call them extinct in Europe, especially in their domestic markets.

Fiat have a 5% market share across the continent, and sold 770,000 cars last year. Ok, their share is half what it was in 1990, but it's about the same as it was in 2003. These European giants have narrower ranges now, so they don't try to be all things to all men across the broad market. Opel don't make an Omega/Senator class car, and Fiat don't make a 132/Croma sized car.

Fiat concentrating so much on the panda/500 platform is probably the most extreme example of that narrowing of the range.

What was a 132?

I think people are bored of the 500 now. Have not seen any new Panda's lately either.
Fiat really need some good new cars in there range.

TheDriver

Don't forget you can still buy the punto new even tho it's 20 years old. Or new tipo??