Architect or clients responsibility

Carrickbeg

The following issues have arisen with my build and I would like the boards members opinion it.
Having employed the only "architect" in my town the following are some of the issues that arose over the build.
1. He told us after getting planning permission and just before the build that he was not an architect but a draftsman and we needed to hire a third party to get our mortgage through.
2. My wife requested high 9foot ceilings in brief and our ceiling heights are 8foot 6inches.
3. The dining room/space in our open plan area hasn't enough room for a dining table and it now has to go to our sun lounge.
4. We now haven't a second living area as our sunroom is now a dining area.
5. Having learned of the benefits of concrete first floors through some of our friends who have started building after us we put it to him as to why we had a timber joists first floor and not a concrete one he said it was clients choice and that if we wanted one we should have asked for one.

So, how much knowledge is a client expected to have regarding dimensions, construction options etc or is it simply a case of my bad I should have done more homework on who I was hiring and how my home was going to be built?

Effects

Have you asked the draftsman why the ceilings are not the correct height that was specified?
How big is your dining table, and your dining room? If it was me, I'd have a good enough idea of my dining table and would realise from the drawings that the area wasn't big enough.
I'd imagine timber joists are cheaper than hollow core concrete, so that's probably why he went with that.

I think you need to put a lot of work and research into it yourself. But then I had friends who asked my why I was bothering to figure stuff out myself, "that's what you're paying your architect for".
At the end of the day you're paying for it and you have to live in it.

Gumbo

Carrickbeg wrote: »

The following issues have arisen with my build and I would like the boards members opinion it.
Having employed the only "architect" in my town the following are some of the issues that arose over the build.
1. He told us after getting planning permission and just before the build that he was not an architect but a draftsman and we needed to hire a third party to get our mortgage through.
2. My wife requested high 9foot ceilings in brief and our ceiling heights are 8foot 6inches.
3. The dining room/space in our open plan area hasn't enough room for a dining table and it now has to go to our sun lounge.
4. We now haven't a second living area as our sunroom is now a dining area.
5. Having learned of the benefits of concrete first floors through some of our friends who have started building after us we put it to him as to why we had a timber joists first floor and not a concrete one he said it was clients choice and that if we wanted one we should have asked for one.

So, how much knowledge is a client expected to have regarding dimensions, construction options etc or is it simply a case of my bad I should have done more homework on who I was hiring and how my home was going to be built?

1. Not really a problem. Planning was secured, which is the hard part and it appears he done this portion of the job correctly. Even if he was an Architect, you would still had to enter a new contract for him to supervise, inspect and deal with mortgage draw downs etc. this would have been additional cost anyway.

2. What is on the drawings. Do the sections indicate 8 foot 6 or 9 foot? (2.7m / 2.550).

3. Again, what dimensions are on the plans that you agreed to. Is the dimensions on site match the drawings?

4. Stems back to No. 3.

5. Total client and budget choice. If you wanted concrete intermediate floors, you have to specify this as the norm would be timber joists.

Carrickbeg

2700 ceiling height indicated in drawings which is 8 foot 10inches it turns out. Minus counter battens and slabs which was listed in the builders tender spec but not shown in drawings.
Result 8 foot 6 ceilings.
Dimensions on site match drawings we were always concerned that this space was tight but he reassured us the was loads of room. When house was built it was clear we were right. Too late now tho.

Carrickbeg

Effects wrote: »

Have you asked the draftsman why the ceilings are not the correct height that was specified?
How big is your dining table, and your dining room? If it was me, I'd have a good enough idea of my dining table and would realise from the drawings that the area wasn't big enough.
I'd imagine timber joists are cheaper than hollow core concrete, so that's probably why he went with that.

I think you need to put a lot of work and research into it yourself. But then I had friends who asked my why I was bothering to figure stuff out myself, "that's what you're paying your architect for".
At the end of the day you're paying for it and you have to live in it.

Agree now about the research part but I thought the professional would know more than someone not involved in the business. Plus his mantra was 'Trust Me...Trust me' and I did.

Gumbo

Carrickbeg wrote: »

2700 ceiling height indicated in drawings which is 8 foot 10inches it turns out. Minus counter battens and slabs which was listed in the builders tender spec but not shown in drawings.
Result 8 foot 6 ceilings.
Dimensions on site match drawings we were always concerned that this space was tight but he reassured us the was loads of room. When house was built it was clear we were right. Too late now tho.

2700 would be considered a high ceiling. The standard is 2400.

Effects

Carrickbeg wrote: »

Agree now about the research part but I thought the professional would know more than someone not involved in the business.

A lot of professionals also do things their own way and what suits them best.
My architect called me a 'helicopter client', but that was more in relation to the builder and various tradesmen than him.

DOCARCH

My tuppence worth would be in relation to the concrete upper floor structure.

These would not be the norm and usually only provided where a client specifically requests and/or where a client specifically wants underfloor heating to the upper floors.

Concrete upper floor structures cost a lot more (than traditional timber) and are a lot deeper, so need to be planned from the outset.

goalscoringhero

Self-build = you need to own everything

That doesn't mean you need to do everything.
But you need to know exactly what you want and be able to communicate this.
Then you need to turn up at the building site every day to inspect.
If you don't do this, there is a potential that some element might have gone wrong, and when you discover it it's too late as things has moved past the point of where corrective action is possible.

Aravo

1. The client employed this person. They informed the client of their quals.
2. What height is shown on the planning drawings and construction drawings and associated schedule which describes the work to be undertaken.
3. Client issue
4. Client issue
5. Client issue. Client never advised that they wanted concrete hollow core, therefore not in builders drawings and not priced for.

The building game is not easy, and that goes for all parties. Especially in self builds, when one is overseeing likely to be their biggest spend ever.

Carrickbeg

Aravo wrote: »

1. The client employed this person. They informed the client of their quals.
2. What height is shown on the planning drawings and construction drawings and associated schedule which describes the work to be undertaken.
3. Client issue
4. Client issue
5. Client issue. Client never advised that they wanted concrete hollow core, therefore not in builders drawings and not priced for.

The building game is not easy, and that goes for all parties. Especially in self builds, when one is overseeing likely to be their biggest spend ever.

2700 ceiling height shown in drawings

Aravo

Carrickbeg wrote:

2700 ceiling height shown in drawings

That is a question for the person over the build (maybe an engineer is calling out) and the builder.

mjp

Have to agree with effects comments above. Whilst your employing a draughtsman to look after your build I have yet to see anyone in the industry that you don't have to follow up closely to ensure that house is built exactly as you wish. Issues like ceiling heights should be checked over numerous times by both parties before build proceeded. Know that from building my own at the moment without a builder.

There are many things I would do differently if was to build again but you just have to get on with it and make it work in best way possible. The ceiling height you have is plenty high anyway and much higher than normal. We would love to have higher ceilings than the 2.4m we have however if we went higher we wouldn't get planning permission due to restrictions on house height. Lot of building a house at the moment is making compromises.

Mellor

The thread is kinda hard to folllow.
You contracted a guy for planning. He got you planning. He infirned younthat you'd need to contract somebody else to sign off.
He's done his job.

You didn't asked for concrete floors, so didn't get them. Thats on you.

You asked for 2700 ceilings. He drew 2700 ceilings. What's the issue?
If the builder built something else, that's the builders mistake tbh. Assuming there was adequate allowance.


Issue with the layout and such are largely "you get what you pay for". You went to a draftsman not an architect. You are building off planning drawings by the sounds of things.

coolbeans

Just curious, did you think you were getting an architect or a cad monkey? Nothing wrong with the latter but in the UK at least it's illegal to sell oneself as an architect if you're not. My firm does planning and design expertise but I don't have an architectural qualification only a planning one therefore I sell myself as a professional planner who does architectural drawings. People use the term architect when in reality they wouldn't be prepared to pay the fees to employ one.

Stanford

Why didn't you hire an Architect familiar with new builds? An architectural Technician is not an Architect and is not qualified to sign off on as-built construction. He will draw what you want him to draw but may not be able to give you the professional advice which an Architect may have. You chose the cheap solution expecting the premium service.

Carrickbeg

Mellor wrote: »

The thread is kinda hard to folllow.
You contracted a guy for planning. He got you planning. He infirned younthat you'd need to contract somebody else to sign off.
He's done his job.

You didn't asked for concrete floors, so didn't get them. Thats on you.

You asked for 2700 ceilings. He drew 2700 ceilings. What's the issue?
If the builder built something else, that's the builders mistake tbh. Assuming there was adequate allowance.


Issue with the layout and such are largely "you get what you pay for". You went to a draftsman not an architect. You are building off planning drawings by the sounds of things.

Let me try clear it up. Hired a guy who is known as an architect. His drawings say xx Architectual Design. I hired him for entire job i.e. planning and build. Once we got planning he told us he wasnt a registered architect. He actually still never told me he was a draftsman i heard that from others. I felt a loyalty towards him as he got us the planning and kept him on board for build. Hired engineer for stage payments.

Ceiling heights. Our brief was high ceilings. 9ft or 10ft. His drawings shows 2700mm which is 12 blocks and 8ft 10inches. His drawings did not show counter batten or insulated slab but did spec it in specifications. But didnt show it in construction drawings. At the time i didnt know what counter battens were.

Not building off planning drawings.

Hope that helps.

Gumbo

coolbeans wrote: »

Just curious, did you think you were getting an architect or a cad monkey? Nothing wrong with the latter but in the UK at least it's illegal to sell oneself as an architect if you're not. My firm does planning and design expertise but I don't have an architectural qualification only a planning one therefore I sell myself as a professional planner who does architectural drawings. People use the term architect when in reality they wouldn't be prepared to pay the fees to employ one.

The title Architect is also protected here in Ireland.

Seth Brundle

Carrickbeg wrote: »

Let me try clear it up. Hired a guy who is known as an architect. His drawings say xx Architectual Design. I hired him for entire job i.e. planning and build. Once we got planning he told us he wasnt a registered architect. He actually still never told me he was a draftsman i heard that from others.

Did he ever claim to be an architect or anything other than a draftsman?

Carrickbeg wrote: »

I felt a loyalty towards him as he got us the planning and kept him on board for build.

So you chose to stick with him?

Carrickbeg

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Did he ever claim to be an architect or anything other than a draftsman?


So you chose to stick with him?

I didnt ask re his qualifications.

Yes.

Mellor

Stanford wrote: »

An architectural Technician is not an Architect and is not qualified to sign off on as-built construction.

That's no strictly true. But it's probably a discussion for a different thread. Besides nobody mentioned an architectural technician.

Carrickbeg wrote: »

Let me try clear it up. Hired a guy who is known as an architect. His drawings say xx Architectual Design. I hired him for entire job i.e. planning and build.

XX Architectual Design as opposed to XX Architects is usually a big clue that you aren't dealing with an architect. But I appreciate that a layperson might not be aware.

In your contract, fee proposal or whatever with this guy. What does it say re: stage payments?

Ceiling heights. Our brief was high ceilings. 9ft or 10ft. His drawings shows 2700mm which is 12 blocks and 8ft 10inches. His drawings did not show counter batten or insulated slab but did spec it in specifications. But didnt show it in construction drawings. At the time i didnt know what counter battens were.

Is it single story of two story?
2700 would be considered a high ceiling.
Counter battens are an option, but they aren't required. But if they were spec'd they were spec'd.
Ideally they be shown on the drawing. But either way if the ceiling is nominated at 2700, that's the ceiling height. The counter battens go above the ceiling. Builder needs to work back from that height to achieve the ceiling height.
Sounds like builders error based on information given.

Carrickbeg

I think the real message here is as a client you really need to understand every part of the process.
For example, i have never asked my doctor is he an actual doctor or likewise my dentist. So i just presumed my architect was an architect. I didnt know about so many different types of professions that can offer a drawings service. My bad. Igornace of the law is no excuse.

Gumbo

Carrickbeg wrote: »

I think the real message here is as a client you really need to understand every part of the process.
For example, i have never asked my doctor is he an actual doctor or likewise my dentist. So i just presumed my architect was an architect. I didnt know about so many different types of professions that can offer a drawings service. My bad. Igornace of the law is no excuse.

The law doesn’t come into it if he didn’t claim to be an architect.

I’m sure your dentist and doctor has the words dentist and doctor above their doors before you walked in.

Mellor

Carrickbeg wrote: »

I think the real message here is as a client you really need to understand every part of the process.

You don't. That would far beyond a clients scope.

But if you have a signed contract with somebody. You should read it at least.

My bad. Igornace of the law is no excuse.

Nobody has broken the law, that so can see.

Presumably this is in a small town. You were wityba local recommendation without doing checks or comparisons. Is you builder a local recommendation also?

Carrickbeg

Easy read something...the challenge is to understand it...

Del2005

Carrickbeg wrote: »

Easy read something...the challenge is to understand it...

Then ask questions before you sign, as you've discovered not asking leads to issues.