Running Myths

Ceepo

average_runner wrote: »

Could never touch my toes but my movement on a tennis court was class. My daughter is gymnastics can do the splits but not touch her toes while my son can do it easily.

Yeah that's the thing.

Someone's ability to touch their toes has no bearing on the way you move.

Trampas

Not read through the thread but I presume static stretch is from cold muscles and not after a session. Cold muscles and static stretch is a receipt for a pull muscle injury type

Lazare

Ceepo wrote: »

Yeah that's the thing.

Someone's ability to touch their toes has no bearing on the way you move.

So I'm not really showing off after parkrun?

IvoryTower

Ceepo wrote: »

Yeah that's the thing.

Someone's ability to touch their toes has no bearing on the way you move.

I said knees.

If you have tight hamstrings, quads, calves I'm pretty sure that's not good for running form or preventing injuries. If there's a physio here I'm sure they could let us know!

Ceepo

IvoryTower wrote: »

I said knees.

If you have tight hamstrings, quads, calves I'm pretty sure that's not good for running form or preventing injuries. If there's a physio here I'm sure they could let us know!

Oops my bad.
For sure tight hamstrings will have an impact on your running.

The question is are they tight long or tight short.
If they are tight long, usually caused bybanterior pelvic tilt also there and point in making them longer. ?

Or are you just making this worse ?

IvoryTower

Get assessed by an expert is my opinion

Id wager most of us oul lads should be stretching regularly, especially those of us stuck at a desk all day. I also found my mobility improved when lifting weights as well so it sort of ticked both boxes although I still like to stretch anyway

Anymore myths for us to smash out of the park

TFBubendorfer

Testosterscone wrote: »

a) the role of antagonistic muscle in biomechanics influence
b) the fact that most of us don’t have optimal range of motion in our running gait

for point b): I don't see how static stretching will give anyone the optimal range of motion

for point a): sorry, I have no idea what you mean. I know what an antagonistic muscle is but don't get that statement. Would it be possible to explain in simple enough terms for me to understand?

For points raised later in the thread:

As for yoga, I did that for almost 3 years. I was awful at anything that involved bending over because my hamstrings were so tight but was top of the class at anything that involved balance or core strength. Also, my hamstrings were still as tight as ever after 3 years of yoga and my running did not improve during the time (in fact it got steadily worse, not that I blame the yoga).

As for injury, I have been injured exactly twice in the last 12 years, both times after doing something really stupid that had nothing to do with tight hamstrings, so I don't buy the "tight hamstrings cause injury" argument at all.

Murph_D

Ceepo wrote: »

This unfortunately is the problem with a lot of research,
research by its nature is carried out academically and is very one dimensional.

Not sure I follow the thrust of this. Research, surely, is carried out by researchers, not always in an academic setting but certainly designed and supervised by academics (who are professional researchers by training).

The article at the top of that earlier list is multidimensional by nature, as it is a review of the current (as of 2015) state of research into the effectiveness of different types of stretching in (a) performance enhancement and (b) injury prevention. It concludes that, for endurance runners, there is no evidence - based on existing research - that it does.

Seems clear enough. Certainly it seems like a decent evidence-based contribution to a discussion on running related mythologies.

Murph_D

Lazare wrote: »

Dynamic before, static after.

Myth?

See above!

Ceepo

Lazare wrote: »

Dynamic before, static after.

Myth?

For me now, it's a myth,
Historically we would have been told static before and after, then there was a shift to dynamic before and static after, of course some would still agree with this.
But should you really do a static stretch when you might have micro tears in the muscle?, you can answer this yourself.

The question I would ask is what are you trying to achieve when you stretch, are to trying to elongate the muscle?, release "knots"/ fascia adhesion?, or just because everyone else does it?


If I was to advise of some kinda of stretch it would have to include some reciprocal inhibition and or integration or retention of some sort.;)

Ceepo

Murph_D wrote: »

Not sure I follow the thrust of this. Research, surely, is carried out by researchers, not always in an academic setting but certainly designed and supervised by academics (who are professional researchers by training).

The article at the top of that earlier list is multidimensional by nature, as it is a review of the current (as of 2015) state of research into the effectiveness of different types of stretching in (a) performance enhancement and (b) injury prevention. It concludes that, for endurance runners, there is no evidence - based on existing research - that it does.

Seems clear enough. Certainly it seems like a decent evidence-based contribution to a discussion on running related mythologies.

I was the one who attached the original link.:rolleyes:
The part you quoted was in reply to testosterscone

MY BAD

Running is bad for your knees... Massive myth

Chivito550

Myth: That being flexible (being able to touch your toes) helps prevent injuries and makes you faster.

Eluid Kipchoge can't touch his toes, so there goes the "faster" myth.

http://www.sweatelite.co/training-eliud-kipchoge-5-things-suprised/

As for injury prevention, I can't touch my toes, not even close in fact, yet in 8 years of track athletics, I have never had an injury from sprinting (the only injury I got was from arsing around with long jump). Meanwhile, I know people way more flexible than me who seem to be frequently picking up niggles or injuries.

Murph_D

Ceepo wrote: »

I was the one who attached the original link.:rolleyes:
The part you quoted was in reply to testosterscone

I realise that, but you posted the list without expressing an opinion about the contents so I was unsure of what you were suggesting. The article referenced certainly suggests there’s good reason to classify stretching - whether acute, chronic, dynamic, or static - in the ‘myth’ category.

ultrapercy

LSR is more a misnomer than a myth. In physiological terms there is no such thing as slow, or fast either for that matter.
Training should be based on effort. Of course slow or easy has become common usage to describe a run at 75% of max which for myself is between 6.50 and 7.10 depending on several varibles. I dont consider that pace slow though I do often call the run as a lsr.
On static stretching I think it has benefits but the old footballer model of pulling your instep up to the back of your head has given it a bad name. If you perform static stretches gently and progressively I think they have benefit.
My own pet peeve myths at the moment are carb loading and over water consumption. Stuffing yourself with pasta and rice for 4 days before a race is not a good strategy same goes for flushing all sodium and minerals out of your system with gallons of water the body is unable to absorb.

HelenAnne

Ceepo wrote: »

career move wrote: »

Many forms of yoga involve holding static stretches so I don't think you can say that it is of no benefit. I think stretching is a very individual thing though and
you have to find what works for you. I've found if my muscles are sore, I'm better off not stretching them.

Many people who do yoga have the most disconnected movement and find it hard to integrate their body,





Pretty sure there's a lot who do no stretching can say the same

I know. I remember reading an article by someone - maybe Catherina McKiernan, maybe Sonia? - saying they’d been convinced to stop static stretching by the science, got injured, went back to their former stretching. They weren’t saying their way was objectively RIGHT, just that they were happy with it.

That’s kind of what I’m saying too - I know the current thinking about static stretching, I understand what Testosterscone is explaining, but I like it, and it doesn’t seem to be doing me any harm, so I’m going to keep it up, even if it’s a placebo

Lazare

Ceepo wrote: »

The question I would ask is what are you trying to achieve when you stretch, are to trying to elongate the muscle?, release "knots"/ fascia adhesion?, or just because everyone else does it?

With dynamic I feel I'm warming up, that's what I'm trying to achieve.

Static because everyone does it I suppose, but it does feel good, assumed I was breaking up fascia.

Have stretched during rest between reps and have always felt a benefit.

Testosterscone

Great to see this thread gaining momentum and plenty of people voicing opinions (some of my comments were a bit vague I will admit but was designed as jumping off points more than anything)

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

for point b): I don't see how static stretching will give anyone the optimal range of motion

for point a): sorry, I have no idea what you mean. I know what an antagonistic muscle is but don't get that statement. Would it be possible to explain in simple enough terms for me to understand?

These two points are actually related.

Every time a muscle breaks down it heals back in a slightly shorter range of motion (due muscle repair filling in the gaps so to speak) so the more work you do the tighter your muscles will get.

As distance runners we tend to be quad dominant as such they get worked regularly meaning that these will be primary area's of muscle breakdown and repair so in many of us quads will get tight. This does not present an injury risk as short muscles tend to be sturdier (so in that respect I agree with the premise that it doesn't influence injury risk) but as muscles work in tandem with each other (for example quad relaxes when hamstring contracts) the length of quad muscle does influence the ability for the hamstring to fully transfer power through contraction as it is fighting quad tension. This is IMO why we are a nation of shufflers to an extent with poor stride length.

Static Stretching does effect the ability of muscle contraction short term in the muscles so should not be done in around runs or activities but on a more developmental level I do feel can improve performance through running economy

UP made a good point about how to stretch which often gets overlooked. Most people's idea of pulling away at a muscles ala the aul one leg quad stretch is not only ineffective but also counter productive due to a thing called the golgi tendon organ which monitors speed of rate of change in tension in muscle fibers, think of it like a seat belt the more force put on it the stronger it acts so overstretching or fast moving stretches will actually cause this to tighten up the muscle to protect from damage of a tear (this is why many people have muscles in spasm post injury). Stretching should be gentle, progressive to the point of first stretch (quite subtle long before people feel the deep stretch the usually do) and breathing is important for oxegenation of cells within the muscle.

Full range of motion however does not mean the more the better it is individual to the person. I know Chivito mentioned Kipchoge and while that is true the thing people fail to acknowledge about that anecdote is that yes he couldn't touch his toes but he was still stretching like the rest of them

Stretching in my opinion is a two prong process;

1) Increasing initial length of muscle
2) Neural reprogramming to allow the new muscle pattern be efficient to ensure sufficient strength and stability

Ceepo

Testosterscone wrote: »

Great to see this thread gaining momentum and plenty of people voicing opinions (some of my comments were a bit vague I will admit but was designed as jumping off points more than anything)



These two points are actually related.

Every time a muscle breaks down it heals back in a slightly shorter range of motion (due muscle repair filling in the gaps so to speak) so the more work you do the tighter your muscles will get.

As distance runners we tend to be quad dominant as such they get worked regularly meaning that these will be primary area's of muscle breakdown and repair so in many of us quads will get tight. This does not present an injury risk as short muscles tend to be sturdier (so in that respect I agree with the premise that it doesn't influence injury risk) but as muscles work in tandem with each other (for example quad relaxes when hamstring contracts) the length of quad muscle does influence the ability for the hamstring to fully transfer power through contraction as it is fighting quad tension. This is IMO why we are a nation of shufflers to an extent with poor stride length.

Static Stretching does effect the ability of muscle contraction short term in the muscles so should not be done in around runs or activities but on a more developmental level I do feel can improve performance through running economy

UP made a good point about how to stretch which often gets overlooked. Most people's idea of pulling away at a muscles ala the aul one leg quad stretch is not only ineffective but also counter productive due to a thing called the golgi tendon organ which monitors speed of rate of change in tension in muscle fibers, think of it like a seat belt the more force put on it the stronger it acts so overstretching or fast moving stretches will actually cause this to tighten up the muscle to protect from damage of a tear (this is why many people have muscles in spasm post injury). Stretching should be gentle, progressive to the point of first stretch (quite subtle long before people feel the deep stretch the usually do) and breathing is important for oxegenation of cells within the muscle.

Full range of motion however does not mean the more the better it is individual to the person. I know Chivito mentioned Kipchoge and while that is true the thing people fail to acknowledge about that anecdote is that yes he couldn't touch his toes but he was still stretching like the rest of them

Stretching in my opinion is a two prong process;

1) Increasing initial length of muscle
2) Neural reprogramming to allow the new muscle pattern be efficient to ensure sufficient strength and stability
[/B}

On point 1) Can you lengthen a muscle by stretching it?
Unless you are going to move the origin and insertion then your'e not going to lengthen it, what actually happens when you do stretch is you "relax" the muscle tissue and thus giving you a perceived ROM,
If you run the heal of your hand down your quad at the border of the ITB/VL, And see if you feel some "knot" there, apply some static stretch for how ever long you care to and see if you have removed the "knot", (pretty sure i know the answer) however you will feel more ROM in the hip. If you have tight muscle fiber there and lax further up or down the chain, which of these do to think will change 1st?

Point 2),
The problem with the above leads to point 2, unless you can reprogrammed the movement neurologically then you are just going to go back to your default gait cycle. AND AROUND THE ROUNDABOUT WE GO.

As runners we generally lack any ingratiation between our muscles in our movement, but then why would we when we don't do anything to integrate them. if you look at any of the S&C or stretching programs out there, are any of them designed for the gait cycle?
We move bipedal in unilateral stance and with a contralateral reciprocation rotation as we move, but there is not to many people out there working on this.

Testosterscone

Ceepo wrote: »

On point 1) Can you lengthen a muscle by stretching it?
Unless you are going to move the origin and insertion then your'e not going to lengthen it, what actually happens when you do stretch is you "relax" the muscle tissue and thus giving you a reprieved ROM,
If you run the heal of your hand down your quad at the border of the ITB/VL, And see if you feel some "knot" there, apply some static stretch for how ever long you care to and see if you have removed the "knot", (pretty sure i know the answer) however you will feel more ROM in the hip.

Point 2),
The problem with the above leads to point 2, unless you can reprogrammed the movement neurologically then you are just going to go back to your default gait cycle. AND AROUND THE ROUNDABOUT WE GO.

As runners we generally lack any ingratiation between our muscles in our movement, but then why would we when we don't do anything to integrate them. if you look at any of the S&C or stretching programs out there, are any of them designed for the gait cycle?
We move bipedal in unilateral stance and with a contralateral reciprocation rotation as we move, but there is not to many people out there working on this.

1) The wording is slightly off I will admit (was keeping it simple) but if you want to swap in muscle tension then it stands to reason that decreased muscle tension will also impact muscle relationships. Also Stretch tolerance can impact elsatic stability which can have an effect on performance.

To be fair with the knot you are describing more than likely this is a deep fat deposit under the ITB within the VL. The ITB is a non tensil tissue meaning that stretching will have very little impact.

The side of stretching is that the analgesic associated with stretching could well have a benefit in terms of cortisol levels which would impact recovery, weight loss, sleep etc.

2) You make a great point and I think this is where the myth element comes in somewhat, yes very few are trying to integrate and as such the science and experience tend to back up what ever a persons belief is as there is full/little to no buy in depending on your beliefs

I am not stating anything for certain as we are not delving into the realms of hypothesis and theortics but personally I am not of the believe the the science explains away the benefits which numerous runners at all levels have experienced over the years

TFBubendorfer

Testosterscone wrote: »

Stretching should be gentle, progressive to the point of first stretch (quite subtle long before people feel the deep stretch the usually do) and breathing is important for oxegenation of cells within the muscle.

If that is true then close to 100% of all sports people I have seen stretching, be it in real life or on telly, are doing it completely wrong. So what you are saying is, when you are stretching a muscle it should be so gentle that you barely feel it?

If I wanted to stretch my hamstrings (which I still don't, but let's just pretend), to what point would I stretch it?

Testosterscone

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

If that is true then close to 100% of all sports people I have seen stretching, be it in real life or on telly, are doing it completely wrong. So what you are saying is, when you are stretching a muscle it should be so gentle that you barely feel it?

If I wanted to stretch my hamstrings (which I still don't, but let's just pretend), to what point would I stretch it?

General approach would be the the first bind point (i.e the first point where there is a change in tension) normally I would say go to the area of first feeling and then back off by about 20%. As this progresses you will find that each repeated time you will see progress (this is short term progress mind you as acute affects aren't long lasting)

Ceepo

Testosterscone wrote: »

1) The wording is slightly off I will admit (was keeping it simple) but if you want to swap in muscle tension then it stands to reason that decreased muscle tension will also impact muscle relationships. Also Stretch tolerance can impact elsatic stability which can have an effect on performance.

To be fair with the knot you are describing more than likely this is a deep fat deposit under the ITB within the VL. The ITB is a non tensil tissue meaning that stretching will have very little impact.

The side of stretching is that the analgesic associated with stretching could well have a benefit in terms of cortisol levels which would impact recovery, weight loss, sleep etc.

2) You make a great point and I think this is where the myth element comes in somewhat, yes very few are trying to integrate and as such the science and experience tend to back up what ever a persons belief is as there is full/little to no buy in depending on your beliefs

I am not stating anything for certain as we are not delving into the realms of hypothesis and theortics but personally I am not of the believe the the science explains away the benefits which numerous runners at all levels have experienced over the years

BTW, i'm not suggesting to do nothing or saying to neglect tight areas, but maybe get the foam roller, hockey ball etc out and do some MFR, this will have more of a pin point effect as opposed to stretching. This will give you the same cortisol release and the benefit that you outlined that go with it.
Now you will give yourself a window of opportunity to re-program you gait cycle....

glacial_pace71

Just straying back to the 2nd point in the original post. I was a smoker when I took up running. I gave up the smokes but put on 7 or 8 kg at the time. There’s some truth to "race training starts in the kitchen" or "you can't out run a bad diet".

On the other hand, since I upped the mileage a few years ago to focus on 10 miler and HM races I've eaten and drank what I liked.

Keeks

Testosterscone wrote: »

3. Static stretching is of no benefit

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

so I don't buy the "tight hamstrings cause injury" argument at all.

I'll bite also.....

Is this not a case that we don't really know what we are doing when we are stretching
Like what to stretch
When to stretch and
How to stretch....

IF I take the comment by TFB about tight hamstrings not causing injury, I would agree. I have suffered tight hamstrings all my life, and no matter what stretching or conditioning I did on them they were always tight. But As I have learned, that if I leave them alone, and stretch nearly every other muscle in my body, then my tight hamstrings go away.....

The problem was not the hamstrings...they are fine....The problem was el;elsewhere...

Testosterscone

Ceepo wrote: »

BTW, i'm not suggesting to do nothing or saying to neglect tight areas, but maybe get the foam roller, hockey ball etc out and do some MFR, this will have more of a pin point effect as opposed to stretching. This will give you the same cortisol release and the benefit that you outlined that go with it.
Now you will give yourself a window of opportunity to re-program you gait cycle....

Foam rolling definite is a good alternative however personally I think that the static stretch can be more specific and have some crossover to plyometric properties (i.e force generation under stretch)* which can yield benefits in itself

* I don't have research papers to back this up it is more just a hypothesis

Testosterscone

career move wrote: »

This is an interesting one and I guess it depends on what you're overall objective is and how you define training hard. I can train as hard as I am physically able to but if I don't have a good diet, I'll still gain weight, recover less quickly and have less energy.
My focus is on performing as well as I can, winning races if I can and trying to get my times faster. I know at the moment that if I lost body fat and became leaner I would run faster for less effort.
First of all I need to focus on calories in v's calories out. This is not a simple equation because not all calories are made equal but for my purposes I'm looking to have a calorie deficit on non training days and on training days I'll increase intake to ensure I have enough nutrients to train and recover.
The second thing I'm focused on is macro's and specifically my protein intake because when my diet has more protein I find I recover quicker and I feel fuller so I don't eat as much crap like sweets and chocolate
Lastly then I'm looking at nutrient timing. I've only lately become a convert to this but I find if I do a hard session in the gym or on the track and I have a protein shake straight after, then I recover way quicker. I'm less sore the next day and I'm not as fatigued.
Basically, what I'm saying is you can't outrun a bad diet

Cross post and missed this first time round but good to see the other myths being challenged as well.

Personally I am in complete agreement with you. In the past I have hit caloric maintenance on a poor diet. My weight maintained no matter what mileage I was doing (was usually high)

Currently I am working on changing body composition (adding more lean muscle) so have monitored my diet to see where things stood, interestingly I reckon that despite running half the normal mileage I will be on track to lose about 5lbs of body fat in the coming month despite the fact that I am eating more volume

To put it into perspective for the sake of say a 1 and a half bars of small dairy mik I could have a half a tub of natural yoghurt, 4 crackers and a slice of cheese. Activity level I would need about a 5 mile run to burn it off.

The only caveat I have found is that looking through the research the optimal post training window seems to be a little weak in terms of evidence for protein synthesis (outside of poor papers from supplement companies funny enough) in comparison to hitting your recommended daily nutrient intake over the day and a post session meal (incl carbs)

charkee

running myths..do gels work on a marathon?

not convinced other than a placebo?

RayCun

charkee wrote: »

running myths..do gels work on a marathon?

not convinced other than a placebo?

they contain carbohydrates in an easily digestible form

'placebo' is an interesting word in this context, because your brain reacts to carbohydrates in the mouth, long before they are digested

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

they contain carbohydrates in an easily digestible form

'placebo' is an interesting word in this context, because your brain reacts to carbohydrates in the mouth, long before they are digested

While they might be more digestable it should be pointed out that it doesn't affect absorption rates.

The more you consume does not equate to the more carbs are accessible. so always take consumption rates on the labels as an overestimate (they are trying to sell a product after all so the more you take the more you will buy)