Easy calving percentage

blonde10

Hi folks
What percentage of calving ease do ye look for for your heifers when choosing a bull.ive heifers to AI and im looking at bulls at the min..would ye class sub 5/6% as easy or would ye go lower..

Lady Haywire

Usually 5/6% here, EBY or THZ or Ulsan. Have used that BZC BB with CD of 6.9 on a few 2nd calvers so might chance first timers next year with him if they come small.

squinn2912

Yea 5/6 for me too think our bull is about 6.5 but heifers have no bother with him. Granted though we try for ai wjth them so if it’s our own bull then they’re a bit older and stronger

simx

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Usually 5/6% here, EBY or THZ or Ulsan. Have used that BZC BB with CD of 6.9 on a few 2nd calvers so might chance first timers next year with him if they come small.

Eby 3.8
Ulsan 0.9
Thz 4.4%

3-4% on cont heifers seem to be the norm

Eby and lm2014 (3-4%) v popular

Lady Haywire

simx wrote: »

Eby 3.8
Ulsan 0.9
Thz 4.4%

3-4% on cont heifers seem to be the norm

Eby and lm2014 (3-4%) v popular

Kzh gets used too Don't think i'll be using EBY again, calves are butty enough. Just a fine line between nice easy calving & a weed of a calf. THZ is a nice in between sort. Funnily enough I've never had a single issue with thz but 2/3 eby calves had problems.

Hard Knocks

Look at gestation length too
Shorter gestation = smaller calves

blonde10

The heifers in question are bbXlm with a bit or a round end,so im looking to go lim or maybe a saler..any imputs on any of these bulls..

High bike

blonde10 wrote: »

The heifers in question are bbXlm with a bit or a round end,so im looking to go lim or maybe a saler..any imputs on any of these bulls..

Zag is an easy enough calver and sa2153 if you can get him

Dunedin

High bike wrote: »

Zag is an easy enough calver and sa2153 if you can get him

Have a few zag weanlings and they’re turning into butty cattle. Had intended to bull them next year but they’ll have to improve over the winter

tanko

blonde10 wrote: »

The heifers in question are bbXlm with a bit or a round end,so im looking to go lim or maybe a saler..any imputs on any of these bulls..

I think Salers are a great job for stress free calving on heifers especially when theres blue blood involved.
Ulsan from Dovea, Highfield Odran if available, Spiddal Pat or Knottown Roy from NCBC or VTA from Bova would be my choices.

charolais0153

Give them a shorthorn and you could end up with some lovely roan stock

reps4

Dunedin wrote: »

Have a few zag weanlings and they’re turning into butty cattle. Had intended to bull them next year but they’ll have to improve over the winter

Even though zag has all the stars and figures, are his offspring showing quality expected of same or is he another jumped up theory v practice mess from icbf.

patsy_mccabe

reps4 wrote: »

Even though zag has all the stars and figures, are his offspring showing quality expected of same or is he another jumped up theory v practice mess from icbf.

ICBF have ZAG in the bottom 12% of skeletal values (size of frame). They also have his carcass weight in the bottom 30%. In plain language - he breeds butty cattle.
NCBC advise using him only on big plainish cows.

tanko

reps4 wrote: »

Even though zag has all the stars and figures, are his offspring showing quality expected of same or is he another jumped up theory v practice mess from icbf.

Over 41,000 calves off him already, he's popular for good reason i think.
Hes not perfect but sure what bull is, some think hes too small but his calves have great muscle and shape and are easy finished.
Have two in calf heifers off him here, the milk side of him mightnt be hectic, time will tell.

simx

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Kzh gets used too Don't think i'll be using EBY again, calves are butty enough. Just a fine line between nice easy calving & a weed of a calf. THZ is a nice in between sort. Funnily enough I've never had a single issue with thz but 2/3 eby calves had problems.

Lm2014 seem to be growthier

Never wrestle with pigs

simx wrote: »

Lm2014 seem to be growthier

Have you seen any pedigree calves by him? He has very good breeding behind him.

Never wrestle with pigs

blonde10 wrote: »

The heifers in question are bbXlm with a bit or a round end,so im looking to go lim or maybe a saler..any imputs on any of these bulls..

Don't use zag if you have shape allreddy. He's a grand easy calving bull but can throw the odd monster when you have shape allreddy. Eby, or as your name suggests a blonde cross would be very nice.

blonde10

Id love to put a blonde in them but im fearfull of the blue and the blonde muscle..dont get me wrong the blonde on a blue is imo a super cross great legnth along with shape..but for maidens i wouldnt chance it..i think the limousine side are coming from a bull called ""sympa " would i be rite in saying..i wouldnt know alot of names and pedigree.. so correct me if im wrong..

simx

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Have you seen any pedigree calves by him? He has very good breeding behind him.

Yeah I have, were only 6-8 weeks old at the time but nice sorts

bogman_bass

For me I look for sub 4% for heifers. I calf most of mine at 2 years old. No point in breaking your heifers up. Still no shortage of bulls available at that CD

squinn2912

If you're going for 2 years then sub 4% is a good idea. We let the heifers get a bit more size to them and aim to hit 27 mths some even as spring calves go into autumn calvers themselves if theyre the right one.

Seanhorse91

charolais0153 wrote: »

Give them a shorthorn and you could end up with some lovely roan stock

What shorthorn bull would ye recommend for maidens? Or for replacement in general?

Never wrestle with pigs

blonde10 wrote: »

Id love to put a blonde in them but im fearfull of the blue and the blonde muscle..dont get me wrong the blonde on a blue is imo a super cross great legnth along with shape..but for maidens i wouldnt chance it..i think the limousine side are coming from a bull called ""sympa " would i be rite in saying..i wouldnt know alot of names and pedigree.. so correct me if im wrong..

Bova have a nice lim bull for heifers that's a full french outcross to all the sympa etc. Laurel is his name. IV a few calving to him in January. Nice easy calving and will leave nice replacements.

patsy_mccabe

Have you ever used Gamin (zgm) or Excel from Bova? I was thinking of getting Gamin straws. Saw a good few nice bulls by him.

tanko

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Bova have a nice lim bull for heifers that's a full french outcross to all the sympa etc. Laurel is his name. IV a few calving to him in January. Nice easy calving and will leave nice replacements.

He looks good alrite, have you tried their other new Lim Loyal on any cows??

Never wrestle with pigs

tanko wrote: »

He looks good alrite, have you tried their other new Lim Loyal on any cows??

No haven't but he's supposed to be very good. Them lads know their stuff when it comes to french breed lims. It's their no 1 interest. IV seen plenty of excel Heifers and they are some of the most feminine sweet Heifers IV ever seen.

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Have you ever used Gamin (zgm) or Excel from Bova? I was thinking of getting Gamin straws. Saw a good few nice bulls by him.

I've one gamin in the oven at the moment for January also. He brings superb muscle and length. Almost like red BB but with more height and better legs. No milk behind him though if you get a heifer. Probably better suited to a big framed girl.

Some of the best lim Heifers I've ever seen were by excel. Real smart feminine, long, tight gut types. I'm definitely going to use him a bit over the next few years. The lads are helpful and don't mind talking breeding and advising what might suit what better etc. I may have went for a look at their herd despercil sale to pick up one and brought home a few more lol.

Limofarmer

Loyal would the heifers bull . Laurel for cows . I have two heifers 2 year old calved down to loyal recently . Nice calves and not hard calved

Never wrestle with pigs

Limofarmer wrote: »

Loyal would the heifers bull . Laurel for cows . I have two heifers 2 year old calved down to loyal recently . Nice calves and not hard calved

Sorry you are right I was getting mixed up with the two.

patsy_mccabe

I' be afraid to go to Bova myself.
I see the Ruan herd are having a dispersal sale next week too.

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I' be afraid to go to Bova myself.
I see the Ruan herd are having a dispersal sale next week too.

Was talking to him. Some nice breeding in that herd. I'd say a bit of value will be got.

Albert Johnson

[/QUOTE]Zag is an easy enough calver and sa2153 if you can get him[/quote]

ZAG progeny are in no short supply around here and none of them would inspire me to use him tbh.
Small little balls of butter that will never amount to much in my opinion. I know he's marketed mainly as a heifers bull but I would think an average Saler or even an AA or a Hereford would leave more saleable stock after them.
As regards the advice to use him on big plainish cows, if there not able to calve anything more than a screw of a ZAG than I think its time to evaluate the breeding policy.

squinn2912

No mincing words there. Not sure about the point on aa/he I love the Hereford cattle but hard to sell. Bulled a wee cow with a Kentucky straw and she has a gem of a calf now brilliant wee thriver the zag heifers were always soft oul cattle for us. Wee butts I’d say they fatten handy but wouldn’t be a huge fan either

charolais0153

Ive seen more e grade zag calfs than r ones but then people dont tend ta photograph the bad ones

Albert Johnson

I agree AA and HE cattle aren't that easy sold at the present time but neither are butts of limousines. Small butty cattle may be alright if you could carry them through to finish but are a disaster for the domestic weanling trade.
As you could probably guess I'm no fan of ZAG, in my opinion his progeny are best described as disappointing.
I frequent a couple of weanling sales a week and good growthy calves with potential are as dear as ever. It's the smaller, dumpy lads that are getting a hammering.
I know that if I fed a cow for 12 months to produce the equivalent ZAG calf I see in fields locally then it would be a lonesome walk out of the seller's box on mart day. Then sort of cattle aren't being bid for at any money at times lately and have little to offer any sucker man in my opinion.

squinn2912

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I agree AA and HE cattle aren't that easy sold at the present time but neither are butts of limousines. Small butty cattle may be alright if you could carry them through to finish but are a disaster for the domestic weanling trade.
As you could probably guess I'm no fan of ZAG, in my opinion his progeny are best described as disappointing.
I frequent a couple of weanling sales a week and good growthy calves with potential are as dear as ever. It's the smaller, dumpy lads that are getting a hammering.
I know that if I fed a cow for 12 months to produce the equivalent ZAG calf I see in fields locally then it would be a lonesome walk out of the seller's box on mart day. Then sort of cattle aren't being bid for at any money at times lately and have little to offer any sucker man in my opinion.

Ah I don't know if I'd just go that far. We sold a couple of Zag heifers at about 16 months and they did ok. Chunky sorts not great but sold well enough. There's one bulled now off an Apostle Sim heifer that we let go after her second calf. She had a great calf but was a tight girl to calve and my father never thought too much of her. Think her and the calf went for about £1740 so that was ok. 
We bulled the previous one largely because although the calves out of our own bull are significantly better quality some were too muscly and ALL were stone wild so we weren't going to keep them in a fit. Great riddance. I'm not all that hopeful of the Zag heifer but sure we'll give her a chance. She has the white socks like the guys were saying recently so maybe there's hope.

Never wrestle with pigs

squinn2912 wrote: »

Ah I don't know if I'd just go that far. We sold a couple of Zag heifers at about 16 months and they did ok. Chunky sorts not great but sold well enough. There's one bulled now off an Apostle Sim heifer that we let go after her second calf. She had a great calf but was a tight girl to calve and my father never thought too much of her. .

IV a pet hate for that apz. His daughter calving difficulty is over %12 but he still stands in ai. He is passing on Heifers with a very small pelvis, and no calving ability. Imagine what these real figures are after the ones that are not reported. How on earth it's ok to pass on this into our breeding herd is beyond me.

I haven't much fate in the stars etc any more but calving difficulty and daughter calving difficulty to me are extremely important traits to be able look up, not like the guess work we all done years ago.

blonde10

Thats what i like about the blonde on the blue ,you get a nice bit of growth and of course legnts and the blue will do the rest..anybody come across any sub 5% blonde in there travel..

patsy_mccabe

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

IV a pet hate for that apz. His daughter calving difficulty is over %12 but he still stands in ai. He is passing on Heifers with a very small pelvis, and no calving ability. Imagine what these real figures are after the ones that are not reported. How on earth it's ok to pass on this into our breeding herd is beyond me.

I haven't much fate in the stars etc any more but calving difficulty and daughter calving difficulty to me are extremely important traits to be able look up, not like the guess work we all done years ago.

And he's a 5 Star bull. Crazy when you think about it.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

IV a pet hate for that apz. His daughter calving difficulty is over %12 but he still stands in ai. He is passing on Heifers with a very small pelvis, and no calving ability. Imagine what these real figures are after the ones that are not reported. How on earth it's ok to pass on this into our breeding herd is beyond me.

I haven't much fate in the stars etc any more but calving difficulty and daughter calving difficulty to me are extremely important traits to be able look up, not like the guess work we all done years ago.

And he's a 5 Star bull. Crazy when you think about it.

Feel quite aggrieved about that misfortune. The country is full ofbhim too. I’ve known him to be a disaster almost every time. Seemed to be a test sire a long time very disappointing.

Who2

I got rid of everything with apostle in them. A complete disaster of a bull. I near got shot for saying it a few years back.

Lady Haywire

blonde10 wrote: »

Thats what i like about the blonde on the blue ,you get a nice bit of growth and of course legnts and the blue will do the rest..anybody come across any sub 5% blonde in there travel..

Clondown Eddie in Bova is 4.5?

squinn2912

Who2 wrote: »

I got rid of everything with apostle in them. A complete disaster of a bull. I near got shot for saying it a few years back.

Garbage. I don’t know why he was pushed so much. I’d take any of our 3 lim bulls over him

GiantPencil

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

IV a pet hate for that apz. His daughter calving difficulty is over %12 but he still stands in ai. He is passing on Heifers with a very small pelvis, and no calving ability. Imagine what these real figures are after the ones that are not reported.  How on earth it's ok to pass on this into our breeding herd is beyond me.

I haven't much fate in the stars etc any more but calving difficulty and daughter calving difficulty to me are extremely important traits to be able look up, not like the guess work we all done years ago.

And he's a 5 Star bull. Crazy when you think about it.

Looks like it's his calving interval, milk and carcass weight that's giving him a good score. So although his daughters can barely calve, they are very fertile! Just goes to show how a 5 star bull can still not be the be all and end all. Reminds me of when ICBF sent out a publication showing 2 ai bulls with the same replacement index but when you go down a layer the numbers that make up the overall number can be very different

GiantPencil

And he's a 5 Star bull. Crazy when you think about it.
Looks like it's his calving interval, milk and carcass weight that's giving him a good score. So although his daughters can barely calve, they are very fertile! Just goes to show how a 5 star bull can still not be the be all and end all. Reminds me of when ICBF sent out a publication showing 2 ai bulls with the same replacement index but when you go down a layer the numbers that make up the overall number can be very different

Sami23

Lady Haywire wrote: »

simx wrote: »

Eby 3.8
Ulsan 0.9
Thz 4.4%

3-4% on cont heifers seem to be the norm

Eby and lm2014 (3-4%) v popular

Kzh gets used too Don't think i'll be using EBY again, calves are butty enough. Just a fine line between nice easy calving & a weed of a calf. THZ is a nice in between sort. Funnily enough I've never had a single issue with thz but 2/3 eby calves had problems.

Agree I'll never use EBY again. The couple of times I have used him I had I've had to use the jack and in one case get the vet and ended up with a dead calf. I know alot of people are using him with no issue but that was my experience anyway

squinn2912

Really? We used EBY along with ZAG and I'd have thought him better but not enough to call it a fair test. I thought people were more than happy with him. Good to know that. You could never be right! 
What would be a decent cross with SIM heifers going back to Fresian? I might try them on a programme at the tail end of next spring if they have the size in time. Could be our own lim bull or is there something else to try to get shape/colour into them? Long time since there was a fresian about here but charolais were a good cross... just not on heifers.

Never wrestle with pigs

squinn2912 wrote: »

Really? We used EBY along with ZAG and I'd have thought him better but not enough to call it a fair test. I thought people were more than happy with him. Good to know that. You could never be right! 
What would be a decent cross with SIM heifers going back to Fresian? I might try them on a programme at the tail end of next spring if they have the size in time. Could be our own lim bull or is there something else to try to get shape/colour into them? Long time since there was a fresian about here but charolais were a good cross... just not on heifers.

Lodge hamlet if you want shape if they are tall well framed types. If you want coloured calves I'd say blonde is your best bet.

charolais0153

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Lodge hamlet if you want shape if they are tall well framed types. If you want coloured calves I'd say blonde is your best bet.

Really? Id imagine that you'd get some awful mousey types from that cross

squinn2912

They look like fresians themselves or whiteheads with different shaped heads. It could be very hard to avoid that horrible chocolate colour or black so maybe I need to just suck that up.

charolais0153

squinn2912 wrote: »

They look like fresians themselves or whiteheads with different shaped heads. It could be very hard to avoid that horrible chocolate colour or black so maybe I need to just suck that up.

Had one here. 1 in 4 limos were red. Others black.
1 in 4 charolis orange others grey. That's the odds