Do landlords in Ireland have it as tough as they think?

Sultan_of_Ping

doddyoz wrote: »

I did not say that investors were not renting the properties out. They are charging high rents to maximise profits.

For new building schemes investors will be the first through the door to snap up new properties and again charge high rents. If we were to drastically restrict the rent that investors/speculators are allowed to charge or restrict the amount of properties that they can hold you would see not only a drop in rents but also house prices too.

From what I saw from the crash investors pulled out as soon as they knew that the crash was coming.

Some did......but equally some buyers were canny enough to realise there was something afoot in the market and held off. I know Irish people love a bit of the ol' begrudgery but are we now so bad that we're begrudging people for being astute?

Quick story......friend of mine sold his plumbing business before the crash. We all thought he was nuts but he saw there was a perceptible slow down in activity and orders, and was cute enough to realise selling made more sense with a full order book. I guess in certain quarters he'd be pilloried for building a business literally from scratch and cashing out at someone else's expense, but that's business.

Deebles McBeebles

Viewing fee???
http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-viewings-4278896-Oct2018/

Samuel T. Cogley

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Viewing fee???
http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-viewings-4278896-Oct2018/

Gob****es. Clear con.


There were fees etc. in the UK for drawing up tenancies, all legislated against and rightly so. I'm sure the same will happen here, but without any badly needed LL protections also coming in.

Geuze

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well starting with the first misconception. Rents are not the highest they ever have been. They are still lower that the peak of tiger years.

Are you sure?

I'm reading that rents are higher than 2007/2008.

See here:

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/quarterly-bulletins/qb-archive/2018/quarterly-bulletin-q4-2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2#page=11

CBI latest quarterly bulletin, see p32:


"Turning to the rental market, the latest Daft.ie report shows continued increases in rents to Q2 2018.

In July, the annual rate of increase in rents throughout Ireland was 12.4 per cent. This can be broken down into city rents, which are up 13 per cent, and non-city rents, which have risen by 10.4 per cent.

Despite the continued price inflation, positive signs have been seen in seen in availability, with the number of properties available to rent growing in year-on-year terms on a national basis.

Rents now stand 27 per cent higher than 2008 levels. Nationally, average rents have risen by 75 per cent from their low in late 2011. In Dublin, rents are an average of 34 per cent above their previous peak while in Galway, rents are 41 per cent above levels recorded in 2008. Outside cities, the average rent is 17 per cent above its previous high"

amcalester

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Viewing fee???
http://www.thejournal.ie/landlord-viewings-4278896-Oct2018/

Goes to show just how some landlords are struggling, having to rely on viewing fees in order to makes ends meet.

Berserker

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Gob****es. Clear con.

There were fees etc. in the UK for drawing up tenancies, all legislated against and rightly so. I'm sure the same will happen here, but without any badly needed LL protections also coming in.

It's not a con. It's a way of making more money from your asset/property. One of my friends has an apartment in Grand Canal Square in Dublin and she used it early this year. She charged people €100 but they were happy to pay it. She just about breaks even on that place at the moment. She paid €650K for that two bed place back in the boom.

Samuel T. Cogley

Berserker wrote: »

It's not a con. It's a way of making more money from your asset/property. One of my friends has an apartment in Grand Canal Square in Dublin and she used it early this year. She charged people €100 but they were happy to pay it. She just about breaks even on that place at the moment. She paid €650K for that two bed place back in the boom.

I can assure you they were not happy to pay it. They were forced to pay it because of the current market.

Bollocks does she only break even on a gaffe in GCS, she'll have significant equity paid off each year.

People like your mate make it almost impossible for the rest of us.

Deebles McBeebles

amcalester wrote: »

Goes to show just how some landlords are struggling, having to rely on viewing fees in order to makes ends meet.

Good job no one is struggling to pay massive rents.

TheMilkyPirate

Berserker wrote: »

It's not a con. It's a way of making more money from your asset/property. One of my friends has an apartment in Grand Canal Square in Dublin and she used it early this year. She charged people €100 but they were happy to pay it. She just about breaks even on that place at the moment. She paid €650K for that two bed place back in the boom.

You're friend is an idiot. A fee to view a property ffs this country is bonkers.

Berserker

amcalester wrote: »

Goes to show just how some landlords are struggling, having to rely on viewing fees in order to makes ends meet.

Like most things, some landlords are just about getting by, while others are doing very well for themselves. My friend is just about getting by but I've another ex-colleague who only works three days a week now because he makes a small fortune out of the place he rents out in Dublin. My friend is a very honest and decent sort who wouldn't screw you over. My ex-colleague runs with every scheme under the sun to get money out of his tenants. He charges them €700 for a professional cleaning of the apartment once every six months but it's actually a minimum wage eastern European girl that he found.

Berserker

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I can assure you they were not happy to pay it. They were forced to pay it because of the current market.

Bollocks does she only break even on a gaffe in GCS, she'll have significant equity paid off each year.

People like your mate make it almost impossible for the rest of us.

Fair enough on the forced to pay it point. She doesn't charge the tenant for maintenance, car parking etc. She pays that out of the rent. She had a really good tenant for years who left Dublin, so the rent on the apartment is below the normal rate for that area. She can't increase it that much because of the restrictions in place. Told me that she just about breaks even on the repayments every month.

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

You're friend is an idiot. A fee to view a property ffs this country is bonkers.

Why is she an idiot?

Samuel T. Cogley

Fair play and maybe I did sound harsh but I guarantee you she's actually in profit to the tune of thousands each year but it's tied up in equity.

cruizer101

Berserker wrote: »

One of my friends has an apartment in Grand Canal Square in Dublin and she used it early this year. She charged people €100

Berserker wrote: »

My friend is a very honest and decent sort who wouldn't screw you over.

I'm sorry but there is nothing honest and decent about charging people to come and view a property. In what other market do you have to pay a fee just to see the thing you are considering buying/leasing.

Samuel T. Cogley

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'm sorry but there is nothing honest and decent about charging people to come and view a property. In what other market do you have to pay a fee just to see the thing you are considering buying/leasing.

Hookers.

Berserker

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Fair play and maybe I did sound harsh but I guarantee you she's actually in profit to the tune of thousands each year but it's tied up in equity.

I understand your point about equity and you are correct. I was talking about the balance at the end of the month. There are some absolute __ out there landlord wise. The other lad I posted about is a classic example. Complete ___ to work with and I'd say he's a nightmare to deal with as a tenant. He gets the tenant to pay for parking but he parks his car in there when he is working, so the tenant is paying for it. Thinks that's hilarious.

Sultan_of_Ping

Berserker wrote: »

Like most things, some landlords are just about getting by, while others are doing very well for themselves. My friend is just about getting by but I've another ex-colleague who only works three days a week now because he makes a small fortune out of the place he rents out in Dublin. My friend is a very honest and decent sort who wouldn't screw you over. My ex-colleague runs with every scheme under the sun to get money out of his tenants. He charges them €700 for a professional cleaning of the apartment once every six months but it's actually a minimum wage eastern European girl that he found.

sorry, calling shenanigans on your posts......either your mate renting one property in Dublin must be getting way above market rates if he can parlay that into cutting his working week by 40%

Also, both your mates seem to have done well finding such gullible individuals to pay viewing fees and, separately, cleaning fees!!

Deebles McBeebles

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Hookers.

Costs nothing to look through a window.

Samuel T. Cogley

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Costs nothing to look through a window.

I was thinking more of the German mega brothels where you have to pay to go in... oh matron... so I'm told.

cruizer101

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Hookers.

Haha, fair enough I did think someone would come back with some market I hadn't thought of but have to admit thats not one I'm familiar with so never would have thought it.
Possibly auctions also.
My point still stands though in the case of renting it is pure disgusting greed and I hope it is legislated against

Deebles McBeebles

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I was thinking more of the German mega brothels where you have to pay to go in... oh matron... so I'm told.

Mega brothel? Any links?

Samuel T. Cogley

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Mega brothel? Any links?

Google FKK clubs or Artemis in Berlin.

The Germans are light years ahead of us... in rental policy... :pac:

Berserker

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

sorry, calling shenanigans on your posts......either your mate renting one property in Dublin must be getting way above market rates if he can parlay that into cutting his working week by 40%

Also, both your mates seem to have done well finding such gullible individuals to pay viewing fees and, separately, cleaning fees!!

Firstly, I'd say that there are plenty out there who are paying for maintenance and parking costs. Secondly, the lad in question bought the apartment during the 2008 bust. Mortgage repayments on it are well below the market rental value, I'd imagine. Now, he could have inherited money etc but he says it's because of the money he is making from renting and he is the type of fella who would screw you for every penny he could get.

Deebles McBeebles

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Google FKK clubs or Artemis in Berlin.

Hahaha fair play, I was joking! I'm old school, prefer a good walk down a canal while window shopping.

Bredabe

I've lived in rented accommodation for a long time, as a mature person I always treated anywhere I rented as if it was my home. Its only since being a landlord became a business were they any problems. My last LL could put my unit back on the market within 48 hours.

I know well that there are plenty of potential tenants that are happy to take mad advantage and wreck rented accommodation, at this stage dam all would surprise me as to the bad behaviour of some ppl that are in rented accommodation.

I was treated badly by landlords because of other's people behaviour and their perceived lack of power to deal with troublesome renters, but not once has a landlord said to me that s/he was approaching a local politician to change the legislation that allows them to evict badly behaved tenants, one even told me he would be happier to see me leave(because of constant anti social behaviour and harassment) than speak with a cllr friend who was helping me pack to leave. while Im well aware its a hard business to be in, treating all renters as badly as each other is not going to make it any easier.

Sultan_of_Ping

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, I'd say that there are plenty out there who are paying for maintenance and parking costs. Secondly, the lad in question bought the apartment during the 2008 bust. Mortgage repayments on it are well below the market rental value, I'd imagine. Now, he could have inherited money etc but he says it's because of the money he is making from renting and he is the type of fella who would screw you for every penny he could get.

Sure, but I cited neither the maintenance nor the parking costs......I merely highlighted how providential it was that your mates were able to find people willing to pay viewing fees, and more people to pay just over €100 per month (€700 bi-annually) for cleaning.

FishOnABike

Berserker wrote: »

It's not a con. It's a way of making more money from your asset/property. One of my friends has an apartment in Grand Canal Square in Dublin and she used it early this year. She charged people €100 but they were happy to pay it. She just about breaks even on that place at the moment. She paid €650K for that two bed place back in the boom.

Berserker wrote: »

Fair enough on the forced to pay it point. She doesn't charge the tenant for maintenance, car parking etc. She pays that out of the rent. She had a really good tenant for years who left Dublin, so the rent on the apartment is below the normal rate for that area. She can't increase it that much because of the restrictions in place. Told me that she just about breaks even on the repayments every month.

Does this mean that the rent she receives just about covers the mortgage repayment?

Ray Palmer

Geuze wrote: »

Are you sure?

I'm reading that rents are higher than 2007/2008.

See here:

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/quarterly-bulletins/qb-archive/2018/quarterly-bulletin-q4-2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2#page=11

CBI latest quarterly bulletin, see p32:


"Turning to the rental market, the latest Daft.ie report shows continued increases in rents to Q2 2018.

In July, the annual rate of increase in rents throughout Ireland was 12.4 per cent. This can be broken down into city rents, which are up 13 per cent, and non-city rents, which have risen by 10.4 per cent.

Despite the continued price inflation, positive signs have been seen in seen in availability, with the number of properties available to rent growing in year-on-year terms on a national basis.

Rents now stand 27 per cent higher than 2008 levels. Nationally, average rents have risen by 75 per cent from their low in late 2011. In Dublin, rents are an average of 34 per cent above their previous peak while in Galway, rents are 41 per cent above levels recorded in 2008. Outside cities, the average rent is 17 per cent above its previous high"

Absolutely positive.What you fail to realise is the daft reports massive flaws as is does not look at actual rents but advertised rents. There are less places up for rent so the report is based on a smaller sample set and ignores what rent people are actually paying. I know lots of landlords like myself who can't raise the rent and are getting less than they were before but paying higher taxes on it.

Ray Palmer

Berserker wrote: »

Like most things, some landlords are just about getting by, while others are doing very well for themselves. My friend is just about getting by but I've another ex-colleague who only works three days a week now because he makes a small fortune out of the place he rents out in Dublin. My friend is a very honest and decent sort who wouldn't screw you over. My ex-colleague runs with every scheme under the sun to get money out of his tenants. He charges them €700 for a professional cleaning of the apartment once every six months but it's actually a minimum wage eastern European girl that he found.

Small fortune would be right because how could they make serious money to give up two fifth of their income and make it back from the property?
Even if they are getting €3000 a month and own the property out right the max they are getting from the property would be €1440. Their wages would need to be kind of low for that to be worth it. Of course for that to be the situation they would need to have no mortgage, no expenses on the property and getting a very high rent which is all pretty doubtful.
What happens if the tenant doesn't pay rent he then is completely screwed.

Either they are lying to you or you are to us

FishOnABike

Berserker wrote: »

I understand your point about equity and you are correct. I was talking about the balance at the end of the month. There are some absolute __ out there landlord wise. The other lad I posted about is a classic example. Complete ___ to work with and I'd say he's a nightmare to deal with as a tenant. He gets the tenant to pay for parking but he parks his car in there when he is working, so the tenant is paying for it. Thinks that's hilarious.

This is much of what is wrong with amateur landlords in this country. Looking on the balance at the end of the month as their profit (or loss) is a big part of why the current rental market model is systematically dysfunctional and unsustainable in the long term.

On a functional market, property is seen as a long term investment in acquiring equity an an asset, realistically returning an average of 5% to 7% annual return over the lifetime of the investment.

In a functioning market is is not a get rich quick scheme where you can invest seed capital in a deposit, have the rent received more than pay the monthly mortgage costs and flip the property in a few years at a massive profit.

If the government does not address this disfunctionality the wheels are going to come off the bus all over again.

Ray Palmer

FishOnABike wrote: »

This is much of what is wrong with amateur landlords in this country. Looking on the balance at the end of the month as their profit (or loss) is a big part of why the current rental market model is systematically dysfunctional and unsustainable in the long term.

On a functional market, property is seen as a long term investment in acquiring equity an an asset, realistically returning an average of 5% to 7% annual return over the lifetime of the investment.

In a functioning market is is not a get rich quick scheme where you can invest seed capital in a deposit, have the rent received more than pay the monthly mortgage costs and flip the property in a few years at a massive profit.

If the government does not address this disfunctionality the wheels are going to come off the bus all over again.

To an extent that is true. The thing is the government increased tax over 13% on gross rental income when rents were falling. So if you are doing the sensible investment you were then shafted by the government.
To catch back up on the losses it takes over €2 rental increase to get €1 back to bring the rent back to profit levels.
So tenants see a €440 increase as a landlord being greedy but they only get €200 extra and may well have subsidised the rental income for years. It may still take years to recoup those losses from the previous years.
That is how all businesses work and nothing amateur about it.